Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: agricola on September 21, 2013, 12:26:17 PM
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Breaking news over here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/21/gunmen-kenyan-shopping-centre-nairobi
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And how long until they figure out how to implement those tactics here (or in Britain).
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And how long until they figure out how to implement those tactics here (or in Britain).
Test run?
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More pictures. Horrific.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2427892/Nairobi-mall-Gunmen-massacred-22-Kenyan-shopping-centre-targeted-non-Islamics.html
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Test run?
Same thing was said after Mumbai.
I'm sure they'd love to. It's a matter of resources, manpower, and not getting caught. I talked to someone in the know many years ago and despite all our problems with intelligence, 9/11 was pretty much a hail mary pass for them.
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59 deaths being reported now.
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So tragic. I'm no great student, but I can understand how the Mumbai massacre was so horrible, in that (no offense meant to anyone) the Indians I have met all seem to be collectivist to their core, unwilling to assume personal responsibility for their own safety. The cops were paralyzed and ineffective, and there are virtually no personally owned firearms.
OTOH, I know even less about Kenya, the people and their culture. All that said, I would imagine they would be less likely to be cowed and murdered like sheep. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge or insight?
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70+ people dead, 200+ wounded.
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I was wondering about Kenya's gun laws, and I came across this, from February instant.
"When I lived in Kenya, gun laws required gun owners to submit to background checks and register their guns, to demonstrate their ability to use the guns, and to provide secure storage for their guns when they were not in use. If any of your guns went missing you could be fined, and, in case of gross negligence, you could lose your right to own a gun.
In the house I rented, the gun safe was set in concrete."
http://trib.com/opinion/columns/give-us-responsible-gun-laws/article_844b4d35-a01e-578d-be4b-b7941a5fd5a4.html
This is interesting, too. It was published a few months ago.
http://tommukuha.blogspot.com/2009/05/guns-should-be-legal-in-kenya.html
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Aside from the gun rights aspect, this is an international attack considering the place and time. I find this concerning me more than Syria.
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Aside from the gun rights aspect, this is an international attack considering the place and time. I find this concerning me more than Syria.
List, probably not complete, of the terrorists involved. I have no idea how accurate this is, though the name of the one from Sweden matches the name mentioned in a Twitter feed supposedly from the terrorists: http://ojihad.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/the-al-shabaab-terror-cell-that-attacked-westgate/
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I was surprised to see SCARs and EOTechs.
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Meanwhile, 78 people die in a church-bombing in Pakistan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/asia/pakistan-church-bombing.html?_r=0
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I was surprised to see SCARs and EOTechs.
So was I, but I think we may be looking at a more "elite" military unit with those weapons. One thing that has been reported is the Israeli Special Forces are there, but I haven't seen any pictures with them in it. It does make sense though, it is an Israeli owned mall and there are probably Israeli citizens in the mall.
bob
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I was surprised to see SCARs and EOTechs.
Here's a picture of Kenyan troops arriving at the mall
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F09%2F22%2Farticle-2428875-1828C11B00000578-187_964x610.jpg&hash=508ec2587608dc0edf7e75f06cbd34196b5d0961)
Looks like three SCAR-H rifles (7.62 NATO) with Eotechs, and a couple of guys have AR pattern rifles.
Note that the two guys holding SCARs by the pistol grip have their fingers off the trigger, which suggests some quality training.
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New SCARs, but old K-pots. :laugh:
Was it cold that day? They all appear to be wearing wool hats.
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Here's a picture of Kenyan troops arriving at the mall
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F09%2F22%2Farticle-2428875-1828C11B00000578-187_964x610.jpg&hash=508ec2587608dc0edf7e75f06cbd34196b5d0961)
Looks like three SCAR-H rifles (7.62 NATO) with Eotechs, and a couple of guys have AR pattern rifles.
Note that the two guys holding SCARs by the pistol grip have their fingers off the trigger, which suggests some quality training.
probably a little warm to be dressed like that.
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probably a little warm to be dressed like that.
If it was the morning that the picture was taken then maybe not.
http://weatherspark.com/averages/29261/9/Nairobi-Kenya (http://weatherspark.com/averages/29261/9/Nairobi-Kenya)
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Note that the two guys holding SCARs by the pistol grip have their fingers off the trigger, which suggests some quality training.
Same with the pictures in the newspaper report. Given that they are wearing British pattern camo, and were a British colony, I would bet some British training.
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More pictures. Horrific.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2427892/Nairobi-mall-Gunmen-massacred-22-Kenyan-shopping-centre-targeted-non-Islamics.html
Indeed.
I did find this, though:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F09%2F21%2Farticle-2427892-1823266D00000578-574_964x640.jpg&hash=f577c25f20faea455254f1d7d302a0d7e1651205)
Wounded: A Kenyan policeman sits clutching his stomach alongside his rifle while a colleague exchanges fire with the terrorists
Obviously not using the official AP style book when reporting on this story. That's an AK-47 superwunderdeathomatickbabyassaulter. Not a "rifle." ;/
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Seeing the huge mix of plainclothes, private security, uniformed police, soldiers, and then the victims/evacuees on top of it all...
Other than the fact they're oriented towards a specific threat direction, and they're not killing/beating/shooting or taking hostage the person taking the photograph, what would set them apart from the terrorists?
I might have a bit more sympathy for the prior police Active Shooter doctrines of "Set a Perimeter" and "Gain control of the scene" etc.
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Obviously not using the official AP style book when reporting on this story. That's an AK-47 superwunderdeathomatickbabyassaulter. Not a "rifle."
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunssavelife.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2FHumor_funny_journalists_guide_to_firearms_ak47_glock.jpg&hash=bc4f3e9975e1cd2298e4b7673de9c31a42ee682b)
Actually, by the looks of it, its an M-16, probably a Bushmaster.
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I'd be more concerned about some Beslan style *expletive deleted*it here, Shooting up a mall is old hat.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430201/Kenyan-Mall-Massacre-Off-duty-SAS-soldier-handgun-saved-100-lives.html
I had wondered about the white guy with a gun in the original round of pictures.
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These are extremely graphic and sad. I find them to be motivating to brush up my marksmanship and other survival skills against the day the violence is attempted upon me or my family.
http://totallycoolpix.com/2013/09/graphic-the-westgate-shopping-center-shootings-in-kenya/
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These are extremely graphic and sad. I find them to be motivating to brush up my marksmanship and other survival skills against the day the violence is attempted upon me or my family.
http://totallycoolpix.com/2013/09/graphic-the-west.....
They certainly are BOTH graphic & sad ... I'd say tragic.
Be armed but you better have a plan to get you and yours OUT... one person going up against organized (and these terrorists seemed very well organized) is surely a no-win scenario.
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They certainly are BOTH graphic & sad ... I'd say tragic.
Be armed but you better have a plan to get you and yours OUT... one person going up against organized (and these terrorists seemed very well organized) is surely a no-win scenario.
I am thankful to say that if something like this was attempted in my local mall it could be stopped or at least diminished by the presence of armed citizens.
I expect once all the debriefings are done on the Kenya murders we will have a better idea of the MO of these savages.
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I am thankful to say that if something like this was attempted in my local mall it could be stopped or at least diminished by the presence of armed citizens.
I expect once all the debriefings are done on the Kenya murders we will have a better idea of the MO of these savages.
While I am VERY pro 2A I have the unfortunate belief that it is more likely that terrorists would plan something like this in places like Washington D.C., or New York City. That is someplace where the prevailing "ethic" is antigun and it would be most likely there would be no CCW owners and only armed police/security who wear pressed and dressed "bull's-eyes" -- ie., uniforms.
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While I am VERY pro 2A I have the unfortunate belief that it is more likely that terrorists would plan something like this in places like Washington D.C., or New York City. That is someplace where the prevailing "ethic" is antigun and it would be most likely there would be no CCW owners and only armed police/security who wear pressed and dressed "bull's-eyes" -- ie., uniforms.
i wish i could disagree but i fear greatly you are right though they better stay north and west of the capital in dc or they might get a surprise
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They certainly are BOTH graphic & sad ... I'd say tragic.
Be armed but you better have a plan to get you and yours OUT... one person going up against organized (and these terrorists seemed very well organized) is surely a no-win scenario.
Here's the thing - if I am with "mine" then my priority is to get me and them out and away, not to engage the shooter(s). The rest of the washed and unwashed masses are on their own until, at the very least, "mine" are out of physical harm's way and have had at least initial dealings with the hysteria/shock/outrage/blood lust that finding ourselves in such a situation might engender.
Fair warning - the next person who suggests that because I carry (at least one) a firearm I am a "Sheepdog" will find themselves in need of an Animal Control Officer to fill out the report made necessary by my response to them having said that. Shots for rabies, distemper, mad cow disease and a high-grade systemic antobiotic might all be in order as well.
stay safe.
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you guys see the woman the kenyans are looking for?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430201/Kenyan-Mall-Massacre-Off-duty-SAS-soldier-handgun-saved-100-lives.html
I had wondered about the white guy with a gun in the original round of pictures.
That guy is a hero. H.E.R.O.
I wonder what Obama's dad would have to say about him?
ETA: Skid, suggesting the SAS guy is a hero for repeatedly saving innocents in this situation in no way implies that you (or I or anyone else) have any obligation to mimic his actions. That's some above and beyond stuff and something that were it to happen here in the US in lay life, is grounds for conferring the Presidential Medal of Freedom upon a person. Heck, this might even still stand for grounds for this gentleman. I hope the Queen knights him for this or something.
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Sorry to disagree, but the current mess, they guy would probably be charged with illegal carry or something.
About the only action that would confer praise on an armed individual citizen would be saving a politician or a cop.
The lousy bastards did not even confer an award on the hero's on flight 93, who probably saved a bunch of them.
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AZRedhawk44 -
I agree with you completely. Doing something like that in lay life is grounds for a Presidential Medal of Freedom - so long as all the proper permissions were obtained in advance.
Elsewise, it's grounds for some other sort of "award".
And BTW, if I knew where to send it, I'd put a pallet of his favorite beer on a FedEx International flight and pay the extra to make sure it arrived warm the way the Brits like it. He clanks so loudly that CDC recommends earplugs if within three blocks of where he is walking.
stay safe.
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I like to think that, were I in a position to engage appropriately, I would act in such a situation. I'm not married, have no children, and I believe the people who might miss me would understand. I also feel that, if we hope/want to reverse the nanny state trend, citizens need to demonstrate that action is possible before state authority intervention.
All of that said, I will not judge or fault anyone whose obligations preclude the same philosophy. Honoring one's commitments is, in my opinion, the finest and most important demonstration of humane behavior, with its own heroism.
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The latest from the "news" is that the victims were horrifically tortured- true? who knows.
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The latest from the "news" is that the victims were horrifically tortured- true? who knows.
It is definately possible, though it should also be pointed out that the torture claims emerged on the same day that at least one Kenyan official admitted that the collapse of part of the mall was due to some Kenyan soldiers hitting one of the supporting columns with an RPG.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/27/kenya-military-westgate-mall
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The pic of the dead couple, with the man's arm over the woman, moved me deeply.