Obama visiting CIA, prosecuting former interrogators?

[Leatherneck]

Did you see the rock-star reception he got there? Screams, cheering, girls raising both hands in the air, etc. etc.

WTF is up with that?

He just went public with some classified CIA documents on "torture."

It disturbs me that our supposedly premiere intel organization has caught the Obama bug.

Your thoughts?

TC

[Balog]

His handlers made sure all the Obamatons were front and center?

[French G.]

A director there staged a disinformation op and imported a bunch of liberal college kids to make his boss think that the spies love him? 

[RoadKingLarry]

I suspect that like most other government institutions the CIA is stocked to the gills with career burro-crats. Hell, if it wasn't for the tinfoil I might be tempted to think that the CIA fed Bush less than great intel in an effort to discredit him re: WMDs in Iraq.

[longeyes]

The real spooks were out in black space wondering which order might be safe to obey in some future purge.

[French G.]

The real spooks were out in black space wondering which order might be safe to obey in some future purge.

Exactly. Our enemies cut off heads on cameras, blow up kids and anyone else nearby, execute wounded combatants, etc, etc.

We get called on the carpet if we deprive somebody of some sleep or pour some water in their face.

[MicroBalrog]

Exactly. Our enemies cut off heads on cameras, blow up kids and anyone else nearby, execute wounded combatants, etc, etc.

We get called on the carpet if we deprive somebody of some sleep or pour some water in their face.

Yes. Because we're better, and because we so much better that we don't need to become like them to crush them like the wimpy little bugs they are.

[French G.]

I didn't say become like them, but I think it would be dishonest to not admit that we are hobbled in our ability to fight by a whining left and it's media bullhorn. We didn't start the fight and we insist on fighting with both arms tied just to prove we won't finish it either.

[MicroBalrog]

I didn't say become like them, but I think it would be dishonest to not admit that we are hobbled in our ability to fight by a whining left and it's media bullhorn. We didn't start the fight and we insist on fighting with both arms tied just to prove we won't finish it either.

Because the only people who oppose torture are leftists?

[French G.]

Because the only people who oppose torture are leftists?

I did not say that, so don't say I did. I said the left and the media are the ones blowing the trumpet over any imagination of torture. How about answering Longeyes original point and the one I agree with. Now the people on the pointy end of the stick are hesistating while their enemies are not. The people here screaming about waterboarding and Gitmo want us to fail, they crave an emasculated America for some reason I do not understand.

[MicroBalrog]

I am one of those people who oppose Gitmo. I don't want America to fail. I love America as much as any person who lives there.

But in a proper society, the ways in which we deal violence upon our foes and upon terrorism suspects are limited. We prohibit torture. Even in Israel, a country where arguably the threat of terrorism and foreign attack is more imminent than in the United States, acts of torture are generally prohibited by law except in some very, very distinct cases of ticking-bomb terrorists - and Israel is not a free country by any means.

In a proper society, the military is subordinate to the civilian power. The spies and special operatives and Men in Black are not in charge. Reporters, legislators, and voters are in charge.

[Jamisjockey]

One of the first real concepts I taught my son is this word "integrity".  About to start working on the girl, not sure if she's old enough to get it yet.  He gets it and cries if I say he doesn't have integrity.
As much as I dislike Obama, I agreed with what his speech writers wrote, at least the part I heard on the FNC newsbite.  We as a nation have no integrity if we torture people.
That said, after the release of the memos, I think that they went overboard.
Waterboarding....certainly torture.  You're causing someone to think they are going to die.
Sleep depravation?  Confinement?  While uncomfortable and disconserting....certainly not torture.


As for the people on the pointy end of the stick....none of them are being prosecuted for actions they were legally ordered to do under the previous administration. 

[HankB]

Yes. Because we're better, and because we so much better that we don't need to become like them to crush them like the wimpy little bugs they are.

But we don't, and they continue to multiply.

Just read a story where a military ship caught some pirates right after they tried to hijack a commercial vessel . . . the pirates were disarmed and then released.

[longeyes]

Torture is one issue; making public memos that ought to remain confidential is quite another.  I think politicizing national security is base and corrupt.  One could argue that this kind of behavior reflects a profound lack of integrity.  I would.

With the issue of torture we are at the delta of what is moral and permissible and what isn't.  Of course many don't believe that what the CIA did constituted torture, but even if we stipulate that it did, for the sake of argument, we are still faced with the issue of when the greater good outweighs the individual bad.  It's odd, is it not, that an administration with a left-leaning, putatively collectivist political philosophy would suddenly discover the all-transcending importance of the individual in this one area that underpins all our safety...but not in any others?  Why not apply this sanctity of the individual theory to the Second Amendment or environmental concerns, e.g.?

[roo_ster]

Waterboarding....certainly torture.  You're causing someone to think they are going to die.
Sleep depravation?  Confinement?  While uncomfortable and disconserting....certainly not torture.

I read some of the memos and while WB was used only on a very limited number of terrorists, one terrorist was WBed over 100 times.  Thing is, if you are secure in the knowledge that those doing the WB are not going to kill you or seriously harm you with it, you can deal with it indefinitely.

What the release of these memos (and previous revelations) and the limitation to the Army Field Manual have done is give our opponents the means to train their boys to resist any and all interrogations by us.

This is a Very Bad Thing^TM and also a Very Stupid Thing^TM.

[Gewehr98]

I could hear all my friends in The Agency groan when Obama said it was ok to blab because elements of the program had already been leaked.   

We would've been courts-martialed if we had tried that.   

[sanglant]

[if we really want to stoop to there level]i say we should behead the next al-qaeda member we catch on cnn with a pocketknife  [/if we really want to stoop to there level]

[digitalandanalog]

Sleep depravation?

While uncomfortable and disconserting....certainly not torture.

Says you...

Forced lack of sleep is torture. It destroys the body's ability to repair and right its imbalances. Lack of sleep will eventually kill you.

Done day in and night out is wrong.

I thought we has sodium pentothal (sp?) (amongst other drugs) to act as truth serums.

If you personally wanted to torture me into talking...good luck. I have had no training other than the fact that a snitch is a dead man. I know people who have gone to prison in order to protect the guilty party.

[Jamisjockey]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090421/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_interrogation_memos

Guess I spoke too soon.  Poll number sagging?  Blame Bush!

AP - President Barack Obama left the door open Tuesday to prosecuting Bush administration officials who devised the legal authority for gruesome terror-suspect interrogations, saying the United States lost "our moral bearings" with use of the tactics.

[Gewehr98]

Cool.

Maybe I can sue Uncle Sam for the survival school's use of some of those same tactics in training the students.

I had nightmares for a long time afterwards. 

[Monkeyleg]

I went for several years on little or no sleep because of the downturn in the photography industry. Can I sue the Bush administration?

[ronnyreagan]

AP - President Barack Obama left the door open Tuesday to prosecuting Bush administration officials who devised the legal authority for gruesome terror-suspect interrogations, saying the United States lost "our moral bearings" with use of the tactics.

Prosecuting the lawyers seems odd to me. If my lawyer (incorrectly) advised me that I can execute anyone trespassing on my property, he might have some liability but certainly not more than I would for shooting the UPS man or something. Personally, I would go after the people that tortured prisoners. Maybe giving your legal opinion as a government official makes for different circumstances though.

[longeyes]

Maybe they simply understand who the most dangerous people really are.  They have the same souls.   They should know.  What are lawyers but hired guns wearing the cloak of "civilization?"  Let's not confuse them with philosopher-kings.

That said this profanes the whole concept of law.  You can now be prosecuted for devising arguments "the regime" does not agree with?

[Perd Hapley]

One of the first real concepts I taught my son is this word "integrity".  About to start working on the girl, not sure if she's old enough to get it yet.  He gets it and cries if I say he doesn't have integrity.

You actually have to speak?  My Dad could just give me "the look" and I would immediately want the Earth to swallow me.  Keep at it.  You'll get there.  


But anyway, there are cases in which a failure to torture denotes a lack of integrity.  Sometimes, there is a duty to hurt and kill bad guys, to protect the innocent from their malicious acts.  Sometimes, torture is required as a part of that.  Any blanket condemnation of torture is small-minded.

[Balog]

But anyway, there are cases in which a failure to torture denotes a lack of integrity.  Sometimes, there is a duty to hurt and kill bad guys, to protect the innocent from their malicious acts.  Sometimes, torture is required as a part of that.  Any blanket condemnation of torture is small-minded.

Sometimes a bad guy won't crack from just the fire and acid, so we have to bring his kids in and rape and torture them. We don't really want to, but the ends justify the means.  I'd expect better of you fisty.