Browns Myles Garrett Suspended

[makattak]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28087446/browns-myles-garrett-suspended-indefinitely-steelers-maurkice-pouncey-gets-3-game-ban

Now, this event I haven't seen discussed anywhere at all, but it seems to me the NFL is missing a suspension here.

The quarterback, Mason Rudolph, started this and then pretended it was all Myles Garrett. BOTH are in the wrong, but as tends to be the case, the person who responds to an attack gets called on it.

Watch the replay of the tackle on Rudolph. After he's on the ground, he's grabbing Garrett's helmet on every side, as though trying to pull it off. Only after that does Garrett pull off the QB's helmet.

I haven't seen anyone mention this at all. ALL the clips start right as Garrett pulls off Rudolph's helmet (and then Rudolph continues to attack him until Garrett assaults him with his own helmet.)

But watch this clip from another angle than I've seen any place run (I cued it up to the proper time):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMHlURlxus&t=1m45s

Rudolph IMMEDIATELY is trying to pull Garrett's helmet off. That's a pretty big attack right there, messing with someone's head and neck. It might help explain Garrett's reaction, after having a reputation for being a clean player- the QB was trying to hurt him first.

[fifth_column]

We should bring back gladiators and quit pretending these "sports" are anything more than ritualized combat.  Or replace American football with rugby. 

[makattak]

We should bring back gladiators and quit pretending these "sports" are anything more than ritualized combat.  Or replace American football with rugby.  

The games are ritualized combat. But civilized, in that they aren't supposed to try to kill or injure their opponents. That's a key difference.


I should also note, I don't have a dog in this fight. I haven't watched the NFL in a decade (save for a few super bowls, but even that is more than 5 years now) and I don't know who any of these people involved are, nor do I care about either team. But the QB was clearly instigating all of this with an attack of his own.

[MechAg94]

I agree with makattak, but when he hit him with the helmet, that pretty much overshadowed the rest of it.  That was the biggest action of the incident and became the focus of things.  

The other part I would say on the QB is this started at the 10 yard line.  He was hit by the helmet in the end zone.  After he pulled off the helmet, the two O-linemen grabbed him and pushed him back holding Garrett by his facemask.  The QB was following along like he still wanted to get into it.  Even after he got hit by the helmet, he stayed there.  Another Browns player came in and knocked him down then one of his own players finally pulled him back.


When you think about it, the same thing can happen to gun owners.  Someone can threaten you and shove you and throw stuff at you.  As soon as you pull a gun out, the narrative changes to threatening to shoot an unarmed man.  

[MechAg94]

One of the comments on the youtube link:  "Maybe he was trying to put the helmet back on his head?"          He just missed.   

[K Frame]

"The quarterback, Mason Rudolph, started this and then pretended it was all Myles Garrett."

No. Just no.

Garrett started it by laying down a late spinning tackle of the quarterback well after the ball was gone. Had it not unfolded as it did there's a good chance that Garrett would have been flagged for a late hit or unnecessary roughness for spinning Rudolph to the turf.

Rudolph yapped at him, and Garrett responded by grabbing Rudolph's face mask and pulling him up off the turf. Garrett then started started slinging Rudolph around by the head until Rudolph's helmet came off. Rudolph pushed back in and that's when Garrett committed what many are calling felony assault.

So, three preceding acts that could have drawn flags (unnecessary roughness or late hit/ face mask/hands to the face/ unsportsmanlike conduct for pulling off Rudolph's helmet) on Garrett and you're claiming that Rudolph started it?

Rudolph never grabbed Garrett's facemask, never grabbed his helmet edge or straps, and appears only to have pushed his hands against Garrett's helmet, which doesn't even come close to what Garrett did.

So no. Just no.  

Watch this video starting at about 1:22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMHlURlxus

It's got some really good angles on the whole mess.

[makattak]

"The quarterback, Mason Rudolph, started this and then pretended it was all Myles Garrett."

No. Just no.

Garrett started it by laying down a late spinning tackle of the quarterback well after the ball was gone. Had it not unfolded as it did there's a good chance that Garrett would have been flagged for a late hit or unnecessary roughness for spinning Rudolph to the turf.

Rudolph yapped at him, and Garrett responded by grabbing Rudolph's face mask and pulling him up off the turf. Garrett then started started slinging Rudolph around by the head until Rudolph's helmet came off. Rudolph pushed back in and that's when Garrett committed what many are calling felony assault.

So, three preceding acts that could have drawn flags (unnecessary roughness or late hit/ face mask/hands to the face/ unsportsmanlike conduct for pulling off Rudolph's helmet) on Garrett and you're claiming that Rudolph started it?

No. Just no.  

Watch this video starting at about 1:22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMHlURlxus

Maybe I am not up on the current rules, but I didn't see anything wrong with that tackle. He got there before the ball left the hand and may not have known the QB didn't have the ball. The pulling on the facemask didn't occur until Rudolph tried to rip Garrett's helmet off. Watch the other angle that comes at 1:45 after the one you referenced.

[MechAg94]

"The quarterback, Mason Rudolph, started this and then pretended it was all Myles Garrett."

No. Just no.

Garrett started it by laying down a late spinning tackle of the quarterback well after the ball was gone. Had it not unfolded as it did there's a good chance that Garrett would have been flagged for a late hit or unnecessary roughness for spinning Rudolph to the turf.

Rudolph yapped at him, and Garrett responded by grabbing Rudolph's face mask and pulling him up off the turf. Garrett then started started slinging Rudolph around by the head until Rudolph's helmet came off. Rudolph pushed back in and that's when Garrett committed what many are calling felony assault.

So, three preceding acts that could have drawn flags (unnecessary roughness or late hit/ face mask/hands to the face/ unsportsmanlike conduct for pulling off Rudolph's helmet) on Garrett and you're claiming that Rudolph started it?

Rudolph never grabbed Garrett's facemask, never grabbed his helmet edge or straps, and appears only to have pushed his hands against Garrett's helmet, which doesn't even come close to what Garrett did.

So no. Just no.  

Watch this video starting at about 1:22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMHlURlxus

It's got some really good angles on the whole mess.

The tackle wasn't late.  The are allowed a step I think and he was on the QB as soon as the ball left his hands.  He was tackling low so he likely didn't know the QB had thrown it.  Also, it wasn't a hard tackle.  He just dragged him down. 

[K Frame]

"Maybe I am not up on the current rules, but I didn't see anything wrong with that tackle."

Summary of NFL rules:

"Quarterbacks, punters and placekickers are protected from being hit once the ball has left their possession or while they are in the process of kicking. Tackles or hits made on a quarterback after he has thrown a pass or handed the ball off are deemed late hits and are punished with a 15-yard penalty."

The concept here is that Garrett tackled Rudolph WELL after the quarterback no longer had possession of the ball. Yes, he initiated the contact AS Rudolph was getting rid of the ball -- that's legal. What wasn't legal is continuing the tackle and spinning Rudolph into the ground afterwards. I disagree that Garrett didn't know that Rudolph no longer had the ball. The pass happened literally in front of his face.

Rudolph did not try to "rip Garrett's helmet off," nothing in any of the videos of the incident I've seen show Rudolph grabbing the face mask, edges of the helmet or any of its strapping. They show him pushing against Garrett's helmet (in my mind it looks like Rudolph is slapping Garrett's helmet as if to say WTF, Dude?)

The angle at 1:45 also shows that Rudolph NEVER grasped the face mask, edges of the helmet or the straps.

What's also very clear is that one of the refs was literally on top of this play and did not flag Rudolph. He also didn't flag Garrett for the initial tackle -- judgement call on the ref's part.

But when one player lifts another off the turf by his facemask and then tosses him around like a rag doll? Yeah, that's going to draw a flag.

And when one player rips another player's helmet off and then bashes him in the head with it? Somehow that's justified because the guy getting bashed touched the basher's helmet?

No. Just no.


So again, no, I disagree. All initiation

[K Frame]

"The tackle wasn't late."

The contact wasn't late.

The tackle WAS late.

That's not a nuance, that's actually defined in the rules.

But, what all of us are missing in all of his in trying to determine who started it first is who went outside the established and accepted rules of the game and turned a piece of gear into a weapon to assault another player.

This is like going back to 2006 when Albert Haynesworth stomped Andre Gurode (I think that was his name) in the face when Gurode was helmetless. I can't remember for sure, but I THINK Haynesworth pulled Gurode's helmet off and then stomped on his face, resulting in severe lacerations requiring 30 stitches to close.

Gurode and Haynesworth had had some bad blood going back at least a year or two. Did that justify what Haynesworth did? 

[makattak]

Rudolph did not try to "rip Garrett's helmet off," nothing in any of the videos of the incident I've seen show Rudolph grabbing the face mask, edges of the helmet or any of its strapping. They show him pushing against Garrett's helmet (in my mind it looks like Rudolph is slapping Garrett's helmet as if to say WTF, Dude?)

The angle at 1:45 also shows that Rudolph NEVER grasped the face mask, edges of the helmet or the straps.

So, where is Rudolph's left hand at 1:50? That's not the facemask he's grabbing? Also look at the angle on Garrett's neck at the same time and how his head snaps back after Rudolph loses his grip on Garrett's ear hole and facemask. He must have been yanking pretty hard as his hands jerk pretty far, as well, when he loses that grip. 

I have no idea how you can not see Rudolph wrenching on the helmet and facemask there.

[K Frame]

"I have no idea how you can not see Rudolph wrenching on the helmet and facemask there."

Because Rudloph never grabs Garrett's face mask or helmet with either hand. You're saying he does -- I don't think the angle of his hand or arm supports that -- I think he has his hand UNDER Garrett's chin and into his chest.

I've slowed it down to quarter speed and put it up as big as I can on my monitor and I can't see anything that says to me that Rudolph had his face mask.

But, even saying that Rudolph may have had Garrett's face mask at some point it would have been, at best, incident, and it pales in comparison to Garrett's flagrant face mask grab and lift.

Sorry, but I don't buy the tree you're trying to climb here, that Garrett's completely over the top reactions were somehow justified.

[K Frame]

For anyone interested, this is an older explanation of the new contact rules when they came out. They're largely still the ones being enforced, but there's still, and always was and always will be, some judgement to be exercised by the officials and the players.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1760584-a-guidebook-for-nfl-hits-whats-legal-whats-not-whats-just-plain-dirty

[Angel Eyes]

Watch this video starting at about 1:22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PMHlURlxus

At 1:52 in the video, isn't Rudolph kicking (or at least attempting to kick) Garrett in the groin?

The notion that Rudolph should also be punished seems to be gaining traction:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/some-believe-mason-rudolph-hit-in-head-with-his-own-helmet-isnt-getting-enough-blame-141912830.html

IMO Garrett's actions were far more egregious, but Rudolph is not totally blameless.

[makattak]

At 1:52 in the video, isn't Rudolph kicking (or at least attempting to kick) Garrett in the groin?

The notion that Rudolph should also be punished seems to be gaining traction:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/some-believe-mason-rudolph-hit-in-head-with-his-own-helmet-isnt-getting-enough-blame-141912830.html

IMO Garrett's actions were far more egregious, but Rudolph is not totally blameless.

Then I'm not just imagining things. Seems I just hadn't seen any of the coverage of Rudolph's actions.

[K Frame]

"At 1:52 in the video, isn't Rudolph kicking (or at least attempting to kick) Garrett in the groin?"

Slow it down and blow it up and...

No. He's not attempting to kick Garrett in the groin.

It appears to me that Rudolph had his leg flexed back through most of that play. When Garrett got up he had hold of Rudolph's face mask and to me it looks is if his action of attempting to pull Rudolph up by the face mask brought them back together.

Rudolph never extends his right leg until well after it's already in contact with Garrett's stomach/thigh area, and when he does it's not a kick, it's a push. The way I see it is that the location of his foot at that time was incidental, not intentional.


Ultimately, though, we come back to the truly salient point in this whole matter as far as I'm concerned -- no player should be allowed to, for any reason at all, whether provoked or unprovoked, turn his or another player's protective equipment into an after the play weapon.

If that is to be allowed, why not just let the players strap on guns and sling it out at the 50 to settle disagreements?

[Angel Eyes]

Ultimately, though, we come back to the truly salient point in this whole matter as far as I'm concerned -- no player should be allowed to, for any reason at all, whether provoked or unprovoked, turn his or another player's protective equipment into an after the play weapon.

No argument there.  Garrett's actions are inexcuable, and I'm fairly certain no one is defending him.  But Rudolph isn't completely innocent.

If that is to be allowed, why not just let the players strap on guns and sling it out at the 50 to settle disagreements?

Now you're talkin'.   I might become an NFL fan yet.

[MechAg94]

Ultimately, though, we come back to the truly salient point in this whole matter as far as I'm concerned -- no player should be allowed to, for any reason at all, whether provoked or unprovoked, turn his or another player's protective equipment into an after the play weapon.

Yes, and he is being punished for that.  Fights and brawls have happened plenty of times before, but Garrett did take this one too far. 

[Angel Eyes]

If that is to be allowed, why not just let the players strap on guns and sling it out at the 50 to settle disagreements?

https://youtu.be/VVrsGHs2MCk?t=218

[MechAg94]

"The tackle wasn't late."

The contact wasn't late.

The tackle WAS late.

That's not a nuance, that's actually defined in the rules.

But, what all of us are missing in all of his in trying to determine who started it first is who went outside the established and accepted rules of the game and turned a piece of gear into a weapon to assault another player.

This is like going back to 2006 when Albert Haynesworth stomped Andre Gurode (I think that was his name) in the face when Gurode was helmetless. I can't remember for sure, but I THINK Haynesworth pulled Gurode's helmet off and then stomped on his face, resulting in severe lacerations requiring 30 stitches to close.

Gurode and Haynesworth had had some bad blood going back at least a year or two. Did that justify what Haynesworth did? 

No flag came out until the face mask pulling started so the referee who was standing right there wasn't going to call the late tackle.  Even the QB only called it "kind of late" in his post game interview.  


https://youtu.be/_PMHlURlxus?t=110
Right at the 1:50 mark, you can see Garrett initially trying to get up after the tackle and the QB briefly pulls on something near his chin then suddenly lets go.  Garrett then grabbed his facemask.  I am not sure what the QB did right there, but he did something that set Garrett off.  It isn't an excuse, just an observation that something happened there.  I doubt Garrett or any of the players are going to talk about it so all we have is the video.

[Hawkmoon]

Rudolph IMMEDIATELY is trying to pull Garrett's helmet off. That's a pretty big attack right there, messing with someone's head and neck. It might help explain Garrett's reaction, after having a reputation for being a clean player- the QB was trying to hurt him first.

Garrett? A reputation as a clean player?

I've read the so-called "apologies." Both Garrett and Kitchens spoke only to and about their own team -- not a thought about apologizing to the other team, or to the fans. I have no sympathy.

[Jamisjockey]

So far this is a really good conversation on what actually happened, penalties, the league and player conduct.  Please keep it on that course.

[makattak]

Garrett? A reputation as a clean player?

Like I said, I don't know these players, but that was what I was reading. Is he not?

[Andiron]

Like I said, I don't know these players, but that was what I was reading. Is he not?

He's a fantastic defensive end.  Couple that with the increasingly strict rules protecting quarterbacks,  and he's racked up a decent handful of personal fouls.  Last night was out of character and over the line.

It's too bad they couldn't have just limited it to a general brawl without the helmet attack,  that's more in tune with the classic Cleveland Pittsburgh rivalry.

[French G.]

Concept. Every professional sports league needs players that suck at playing and are good at fighting, just like the NHL.

Or like this girl.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjV2D4s2kDU