Sweat-type ball valves (plumbing)

[zahc]

You can buy ball valves that have sweat (solder) connections on them. What keeps the internal seals from melting when you solder them into the piping? Do you have to take them apart, solder them on, and then reassemble them?

[Nick1911]

Not sure about plumbing, but in HVAC we regularly braze TXV's into linesets - they have internal seals.  The valve is wrapped in a wet cloth to dissipate heat while the device is brazed.

[Brad Johnson]

What keeps the internal seals from melting when you solder them into the piping?

Take them apart before you solder them

Brad

[Triphammer]

Lead free solders melt around 450 -500  F & don't usually need a wet wrap. Unless you're working with a big valve, just heat & flow. HVAC work usually uses a higher temp silver solder & wet wraps are required.

[Jim147]

It's a steel ball inside a piece of brass. If you don't get it hot enough to warp the whole thing, and you shouldn't with soft solder, you won't have a problem.

jim

[CNYCacher]

I don't think ball valves come apart. . .

I always sweat them with the valve open and leave it open until it's cooled.  Use a hot fast torch so you can get the fitting up to temp without getting the entire thing up to temp.

[Brad Johnson]

In all honesty if I was putting on a valve I'd get screw on type for the replaceability. Sweat on the fitting, then screw on the valve.  Gives you future repair options and you don't run the risk of dorking up the valve when soldering.

Brad

[Grandpa Shooter]

In all honesty if I was putting on a valve I'd get screw on type for the replaceability. Sweat on the fitting, then screw on the valve.  Gives you future repair options and you don't run the risk of dorking up the valve when soldering.

Brad

Whenever possible I always would put on a threaded fitting before a valve, or faucet of any type.  Makes it easier for the next guy, or next time.

[Ron]

I don't think ball valves come apart. . .

I always sweat them with the valve open and leave it open until it's cooled.  Use a hot fast torch so you can get the fitting up to temp without getting the entire thing up to temp.

+1, exactly, leave it open until it cools off.

[never_retreat]

Keep the valve open, use a hot torch (acetylene), cool with a wet rag when done.
They use a Teflon type material instead of rubber so its a lot more heat resistant.

[zahc]

Whenever possible I always would put on a threaded fitting before a valve, or faucet of any type.  Makes it easier for the next guy, or next time.

So I suppose you solder one of those copper threaded adapters and then thread the valve on...so then you have another joint to leak. What do you seal it with, teflon tape? You usually want the valve to end up in a certain orientation, which requires an integral number of of whole turns on the threads. Whenever I do that I always end up stuck between what feels too loose and what feels way too tight.

[Azrael256]

Screw the fitting to the valve and then mark the position on the pipe.  Disassemble and solder.

[280plus]

I sweast them on with no wraps all the time. Oe other tip is to direct the flame away from the valve body.

Threaded valves you crank till their tight and then crank around to the desired position. Occasionally you can crack a cast bronze body by overtightening but once you get the feel for it it rarely happens. With threaded fittings I was taught turn them till they feel tight and the go "one more time around the park". These days I'm using tape AND dope because the chinese junk is all out of round and will leak if you don't.

I prefer solder over threads however. Something else I was taught. Threads are a mechanical seal, solder is a molecluar bond. (I think that's what you call it) A mechanical fitting is much more likely to start leaking as time goes by so therefore the solder joint is prefered. That's good old US Navy MM/A school right there.

[roo_ster]

I sweast them on with no wraps all the time. Oe other tip is to direct the flame away from the valve body.

Threaded valves you crank till their tight and then crank around to the desired position. Occasionally you can crack a cast bronze body by overtightening but once you get the feel for it it rarely happens. With threaded fittings I was taught turn them till they feel tight and the go "one more time around the park". These days I'm using tape AND dope because the chinese junk is all out of round and will leak if you don't.

I prefer solder over threads however. Something else I was taught. Threads are a mechanical seal, solder is a molecluar bond. (I think that's what you call it) A mechanical fitting is much more likely to start leaking as time goes by so therefore the solder joint is prefered. That's good old US Navy MM/A school right there.

So, you'll have to heat the fitting to both solder it and then release it if it leaks at a later date?

[Grandpa Shooter]

So I suppose you solder one of those copper threaded adapters and then thread the valve on...so then you have another joint to leak. What do you seal it with, teflon tape? You usually want the valve to end up in a certain orientation, which requires an integral number of of whole turns on the threads. Whenever I do that I always end up stuck between what feels too loose and what feels way too tight.

Anytime I am doing a plumbing job, and I did it in my work life as well, I lay the entire job out in advance on paper and if possible on the floor.  I cut and ream all the copper and then sand a couple of inches of the end of the straight pieces and the inside of all the fittings.  I dry fit the entire thing together and make certain of the angles and orientation.  When I am certain of all of it I use a felt marker to put alignment marks on the pipe and fittings.

Then I take it all back apart and using a flux brush to apply the flux I reassemble it and solder it one joint at a time.  It may seem like a lot of work, but I have only had one circumstance where I had a problem and that was connecting to the existing (old)  copper.  The lead free solder does not work well with a joint between old and new copper.

If I am connecting to a valve for an outside anti freeze valve, or in a bath or kitchen application  I generally use teflon pipe tape, or if the fit between the fitting and valve appears to be more loose than normal I use pipe dope.  I have had times when I used the yellow gas valve tape because it is thicker and requires less turns on the valve to seal.

When I am done with the assembly and sweating, I turn the water on so it just barely runs and leave the faucet open.  When I get a trickle out of the faucet I turn it off and let the run pressurize.  I check for leaks at every sweat and if I find none then I turn the water up to full pressure and let it sit for 15 minutes under pressure.  If I have no leaks only then will I call it done and close up the wall or continue on with the job.

It may seem like a pain to you, but I don't like doing the same thing twice and would rather take the time the first time.  One of the mold manufacturing companies I did business with had a sign up on the wall in the main shop which read, "If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how do you expect to have the time to do it over."

[280plus]

So, you'll have to heat the fitting to both solder it and then release it if it leaks at a later date?

Correct 

[Harold Tuttle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSyzeVWueI

[280plus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSyzeVWueI

I'm thinking we took an obtuse angle here but I like it. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=ball+valves+sharkbite&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2379554452210830302&sa=X&ei=5vGkTduKMZCP0QGU2dXyCA&ved=0CDgQ8wIwAg#

[zahc]

That's pretty cheap. The ones they have at Lowes are like $14 each. When i have the cash I think I will buy 2 of those and go copper in on one side and PEX out on the other side. PEX is really annoying with the special fittings though; I wish it was easier to rent the crimpers. I'm tempted to just use 2 stainless steel hose clamps instead of the special copper rings.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i got a tool for 155 that does 3 sizes.  i used hose clamps for years before that  2 on each connection

[Jim147]

I've used hose clamps for 2:00 am get the water back on repairs. I've always went back and put a copper crimp ring on it.

I picked up my tool for around $100.00. If you have a tool rental place around you or a small hardware you might be able to get one for a day for little or nothing.

jim

[zahc]

I just discovered this:

pexcrimper.com

I probably won't buy it but it's good to know it's out there.

[CNYCacher]

I just discovered this:

pexcrimper.com

I probably won't buy it but it's good to know it's out there.

My brother has that one.  You need 10" vise grips and it's kind of awkward.

Home Depot has a tool made by Cash Acme (maker of Shark Bite) that resembles bolt cutters, and crimps 1" on it's own, and 3/4", 5/8", 1/2" and 3/8" with the included dies.  It also comes with a pex tubing cutter and the go/no-go gauge, and a nice case with carrying handle.  That kit is $94.  It's a really good tool with wide handles, a positive crimp stop, and you can tell the dies were precision made.  There is a tension adjustment which is factory set and the crimps are very consistent.  So consistent are they that when I use the go/no-go gauge on them, it isn't even a question of whether they are a no-go, they each even feel exactly the same when I run the gauge around them.

Lowes sells their version of the same thing under their Kobalt brand, which I am not too keen on for $95, without a case I think.  Not sure which sizes it does.  It's in a display pack hanging vertically in the fittings area.  The Cash Acme at Home Depot is stacked flat in a plain cardboard box above the tubing; you have to be looking for it to notice it.

[Azrael256]

I just want to express my deep disappointment with this thread and all who posted in it (including myself).  How did nobody grab the title and run with it?