PTR 91

[Jocassee]

A friend of mine just bought the very first PTR 91 produced by PTR Industries on the South Carolina production line.

Eff you, New York!

[dogmush]

Awesome!  

One of their Scout Carbines is going to be my first 2014 gun purchase.  Hopefully I can score a post CT model.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

One of the reasons I bought one. Now I just need more ammo and a scope.

The retractable stock, whilst it gives major cool points,  is not as good as the standard one. Love the cheap mags.

[MechAg94]

I took the German surplus scope off mine.  Not enough eye relief to deal with the recoil of that rifle.  I'd rather stick with the irons.  

I always consider selling it, but it is a solid rifle and I have a small pile of mags. 

[Gewehr98]

Bummer about the fluted chambers. 

[Boomhauer]

The green furniture one at PSA greenville is very tempting...

[dogmush]

Bummer about the fluted chambers. 

Eh.  It's overblown IMO.

I've reloaded cases from my CETME just fine, although I usually just shoot cheaper surplus and don't bother.  The resizing die pretty much fixes any flute issues.  The bigger issue for reloading is hunting down the brass.  All things being equal, I like the fluted chamber because (to me) the benefits to extraction outweigh any negatives to case life.

[Gewehr98]

Not overblown to me, because I have multiple .308s, and handload match-grade ammo for all of them, with Lapua brass.

YMMV, of course. 

[Viking]

Bummer about the fluted chambers.  

Could you explain why this is undesireable?

[Gewehr98]

Viking,

If you're shooting surplus or crap ammo, it's not a big deal, because you're probably not going to care how the brass is treated. 

HK doesn't care, because one, you suck, and two, it's a combat weapons system that requires the unique chamber profile for reliability in the field.  Likewise, soldiers don't police their brass to reload it after a firefight.

By way of explanation, the HK/CETME roller-locked delayed blowback action needs longitudinal chamber flutes to "float" the cartridge brass in a layer of combustion gas as a means of extraction assistance in that violent system.

Each fired round has multiple striations that go from case head to case mouth afterwards.  While it's true they can be resized to *approximate* nominal dimensions, they are far from optimal, let alone looking very good.

The flutes in the brass can be ironed out, but never completely.



If you're gonna own a HK91 variant or CETME .308, it's a fact of life.  The action won't function properly without some assistance from the chamber and barrel pressures via those flutes. 

I've fired them, been offered some good deals on a few, and were I to own one, I'd probably get a bucket or three of surplus (thicker mil-spec) Lake City brass and reserve it specifically for that rifle. 

[dogmush]

Not overblown to me, because I have multiple .308s, and handload match-grade ammo for all of them, with Lapua brass.

YMMV, of course.  

This would indeed make it a bigger deal.  

Could you explain why this is undesireable?

The chamber flutes end up fluting the brass a bit after firing. This makes reloading more of a pain (gotta resize the whole case) and shortens the lifespan of the brass due to extra working of the metal. In G98's case he bought nice expensive brass and doesn't want to artificially shorten the lifespan.  I don't use my .308's for precision so I run surplus ammo, or if I reload it I'm aiming for an economical 1-1.5MOA ammo.  so I use whatever brass I got cheap and don't really care if I get less loads out of it.  Different goals lead to different systems.


ETA:  Doh!  cross posted.

[Viking]

Viking,

If you're shooting surplus or crap ammo, it's not a big deal, because you're probably not going to care how the brass is treated. 

HK doesn't care, because one, you suck, and two, it's a combat weapons system that requires the unique chamber profile for reliability in the field.  Likewise, soldiers don't police their brass to reload it after a firefight.

By way of explanation, the HK/CETME roller-locked delayed blowback action needs longitudinal chamber flutes to "float" the cartridge brass in a layer of combustion gas as a means of extraction assistance in that violent system.

Each fired round has multiple striations that go from case head to case mouth afterwards.  While it's true they can be resized to *approximate* nominal dimensions, they are far from optimal, let alone looking very good.

The flutes in the brass can be ironed out, but never completely.



If you're gonna own a HK91 variant or CETME .308, it's a fact of life.  The action won't function properly without some assistance from the chamber and barrel pressures via those flutes. 

I've fired them, been offered some good deals on a few, and were I to own one, I'd probably get a bucket or three of surplus (thicker mil-spec) Lake City brass and reserve it specifically for that rifle. 

Thanks. I've read a few times that .308/7.62mm H&K type guns "mangle" brass. Is this what they mean by it? Or is it worse?

[MechAg94]

Fluted chambers is not what bothers me.  Mine tends to mangle the case rim at the base.  I have changed extractors and it still does it.  I just save what South African ammo I have left for the PTR. 

[AJ Dual]

Thanks. I've read a few times that .308/7.62mm H&K type guns "mangle" brass. Is this what they mean by it? Or is it worse?

Yes, that is generally what they mean by mangling brass, but the violent action and ejection as MechAg94 mentions, heavy gouges in the case rim, and crushed mouths just from bumping into the edges of the ejection port isn't uncommon either.

You can also get into a situation where thinner and softer commercial spec brass, like shooting hunting .308 rather than 7.62 NATO in a 91 or G3, or +p commercial 9mm in an HK94 or MP5 will get it to fire-form to the chamber, and take one hell of time pounding it out with a rod and a mallet. That happened to me when I tried some Cor-Bon 124gr +p in my HK94 back in the 90's. Took a brass rod and a small sledgehammer to get it out while another person kept their foot on the charging handle.

And while I like to pile on too, the whole HK "You suck and we hate you" is only partially true, generally on the Customer Service side because they've never developed a robust CS department geared towards dealing with the public. The part about what products they've discontinued, or won't bring to the U.S. consumer market is largely due to regulation, the U.S. Executive Order import bans, the legislative bans, the '94 AWB, state level bans (in some of the most populous states like NY and CA) and there's a whole other set of German export laws on military style weapons or civilian consumption that hinder what HK can do as well.

They'd have to set up a U.S. plant to get around most of it, and then figure out how to make it work economically in the boom and bust cycles of American gun-runs, which also coincide with the uncomfortable potential for having their products legislated away in bans.

There are things HK could do to improve their U.S. footprint and customer service, but it's not as much as people think.

[MechAg94]

Maybe they could talk to Sig Sauer who seems to be doing well with their US production.  

I got a recoil buffer which helps with the dents int he brass, but mine still mangles the case rims.  My friend asked me not to give him any more brass from that rifle.  

[AZRedhawk44]

The chamber flutes end up fluting the brass a bit after firing. This makes reloading more of a pain (gotta resize the whole case) and shortens the lifespan of the brass due to extra working of the metal. In G98's case he bought nice expensive brass and doesn't want to artificially shorten the lifespan.  I don't use my .308's for precision so I run surplus ammo, or if I reload it I'm aiming for an economical 1-1.5MOA ammo.  so I use whatever brass I got cheap and don't really care if I get less loads out of it.  Different goals lead to different systems.

To pick at your nits just a bit, you have to resize the whole case even if you're shooting .308 from a nice, tight match-chambered M14... or an M60, or a CETME/HK/PTR.  Flutes do suck, I agree, and the fluted chambers tend to expand the brass more than an M240/M60 machine gun will, and they introduce rechambering problems and internal case pressure variables for precision marksmanship.  But all semiauto-fired bottleneck rifle brass needs full length resizing.  Even from something like a modern sporting Browning BAR.

[Gewehr98]

Yup.  I full-length resize all my .308, be it for the M14NM and BM-59 autoshuckers, or the 700PSS, Tikka 595 Master Sporter, and Custom 98 Mauser.

The latter three I could probably get away with neck-sizing and dedicated ammo boxes, but by full-length resizing and trimming to nominal I can grab & go with any of my .308 ammo and not worry about it.

[dogmush]

To pick at your nits just a bit, you have to resize the whole case even if you're shooting .308 from a nice, tight match-chambered M14... or an M60, or a CETME/HK/PTR.  Flutes do suck, I agree, and the fluted chambers tend to expand the brass more than an M240/M60 machine gun will, and they introduce rechambering problems and internal case pressure variables for precision marksmanship.  But all semiauto-fired bottleneck rifle brass needs full length resizing.  Even from something like a modern sporting Browning BAR.

Fair enough, 85% of my reloading is for pistols and pretty much the rest is for my bolt guns.  I don't fully resize the brass in my bolt guns because it's already fire formed to the chamber.