I can haz revolooshun now?

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.html

And... if I can't have revolution, then how about just a few self-centered bureaucrats?  That's all I'm asking for.  I don't need the elected ones to tide me over until the game really starts.  Pretty please?


Synopsis:  Neighborhood wants stop lights.  City engineer does study, says stop lights aren't needed.  Residents perform their own analysis and write up a high quality document that makes the engineer professionally envious (and also shows him to be wrong).

Engineer's solution?  Refer neighborhood residents to the state licensing board for practicing engineering without a license.

Every normal man must, at times, be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.

No, I'm not gonna go whack some traffic engineer.  But srsly, where is some effing common sense in this society?

[roo_ster]

Must be the same engineer who did the traffic study at our corner.

Tar & feathers really ought to make a comeback.

[roo_ster]

Oh, and I do engineering work every flipping day with only a widdy biddy physics degree.

[Regolith]

 

"All we ever tried to do was express our view about this," said Cox, a computer scientist.

"When you start applying the principles for trip generation and route assignment, applying judgments from engineering documents and national standards, and making recommendations," that's technical work a licensed engineer would do, Lacy said.

That sounds well within the technical ability of a serious computer scientist.  There has been a great deal of work done within the field that involves optimization of stop light algorithms. I'd say he was more than qualified to generate that report.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its only when he disagreed that it was a problem

[makattak]

Since, apparently, we're not merging the simultaneous topics:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.html

A man is being investigated for "practicing engineering without a license."

I have no words. This is right up there with "practicing hairdressing without a license." (And I'm well aware someone could be charged for that, as well.)

STATE GRANTED MONOPOLIES ARE NOT THE ANSWER. Not the answer to almost any question.

I realize there are bigger problems, but, come on!

[makattak]

Credential America.

"Your papers, please" is apparently alive and well in America.

Don't have the right papers? Too bad, doesn't matter that you are intelligent and can do it as well as one with the proper "credentials." Without government approval, you're out.

Can we make a list of jobs where "credentials" are required but are meaningless except to prevent qualified people from doing the job and creating an artificially small labor pool?

Teachers
Hairdressers
Engineers (apparently)
Massuese (no idea how to spell that)
Acupunturist
Yoga (seriously, someone brought a bill in VA to require all Yoga instructors to be licensed.)
"Certified Historological Technician" (from NYS licensing.)
Interior Design
Land Surveyor
"Creative Arts Therapist" (from NYS licensing, again.)
Virginia licensing:
Hair Braiding
Hearing aid specialist
Body Piercing
Nail technician
Wax technician
Esthetician
TIME-SHARES??

We want to cut government? How about cutting stupid licensing boards?

[makattak]

I remember reading somewhere a theory that the reason Germany and Japan made such rapid progress after WWII was not because they were able to upgrade to new capital technologies as the old had been destroyed, but because the war had destroyed the old bureaucracies and disrupted the entrenched interest groups.

[seeker_two]

Credential America.

"Your papers, please" is apparently alive and well in America.

Don't have the right papers? Too bad, doesn't matter that you are intelligent and can do it as well as one with the proper "credentials." Without government approval, you're out.

Can we make a list of jobs where "credentials" are required but are meaningless except to prevent qualified people from doing the job and creating an artificially small labor pool?

Teachers
Hairdressers
Engineers (apparently)
Massuese (no idea how to spell that)
Acupunturist
Yoga (seriously, someone brought a bill in VA to require all Yoga instructors to be licensed.)
"Certified Historological Technician" (from NYS licensing.)
Interior Design
Land Surveyor
"Creative Arts Therapist" (from NYS licensing, again.)
Virginia licensing:
Hair Braiding
Hearing aid specialist
Body Piercing
Nail technician
Wax technician
Esthetician
TIME-SHARES??

We want to cut government? How about cutting stupid licensing boards?

Don't forget Private Investigators....who mostly do records searches on the Internet nowadays.... 

I hope the guy countersues for slander....because the doofus who calls himself an engineer is slandering engineers everywhere..... 

[RaspberrySurprise]

http://www.michigan.gov/mdcd/0,1607,7-122--60358--,00.html

Read this list and weep. Weep for the future.

And as an extra tidbit, working as a private investigator without a state license is a felony good for several years in prison. A PI license costs over $600 to obtain. Plus whatever hoops you have to jump through.

[230RN]

<rant>

A while ago I decided I'd like to get my PE designation/accreditation.  I figured I could challenge whatever exams they had and come out all right.

Then I discovered you needed to be an apprentice under another PE for something like two years as one of the qualifications so I figured pisonit, that smacked of medievalism.

I actually held the job titles of "Engineer" at one place, and "Scientist/Engineer" at another, but that was apart from the PE requirements.  Most of the people I have worked with who have the titles "Engineer" and "Scientist" don't know the difference between a 4-40 and a 6-32 screw and couldn't work with the Newtonian laws of motion.

There.  Now I'm a happier "talented amateur" for having vented thusly.

</rant>

I note that two of the places where amateurs can make substantial peer-reviewed and published contributions to advancing the real art and science of their hobbies* are in astronomy and electronics. There are probably others, too.

Terry, 230RN

*
Read as "unpaid extracurricular technical activities."
___________
Edited To Add:

What, no "Community Activist" license in that list, RaspberrySurprise?  I'm shocked.  Shocked, I tell you.  But on the other hand, come to think of it, they don't list "Senator," or "President" in there, either.  Maybe they're on the Illinois list.

[Nick1911]

Not that it makes what happened right in the story presented, but....

I recall that my brother, a civil engineer had to pass some state licensing board to be a PE before he could "sign his own work".  The idea being, if he's designing a bridge or a foundation or something - he's required to prove to the state that he's competent to do so.

I'm just saying...  an earthquake hits the USA, and an equal earthquake hits somewhere like haiti , which one is in more hurt?

[roo_ster]

Not that it makes what happened right in the story presented, but....

I recall that my brother, a civil engineer had to pass some state licensing board to be a PE before he could "sign his own work".  The idea being, if he's designing a bridge or a foundation or something - he's required to prove to the state that he's competent to do so.

I'm just saying...  an earthquake hits the USA, and an equal earthquake hits somewhere like haiti , which one is in more hurt?

Not because of signatures, but because of quality flush toilets and the associated plumbing.

[AmbulanceDriver]

No, see what the government flunky is mad about is that someone isn't "respectin' his authoritay!!!!"  How DARE the CITIZEN'S disagree with his decree from on high, and then actually DARE to prove him WRONG?  What he's terrified of, is that someone just threatened his position in government.  They not only proved he was wrong, but they did it without a 17 month multi-million dollar study.


Nick, I agree with you that when we're talking about building a bridge, you really want the pro's doing the work for you...

But then again, even the pro's screw up sometimes:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw

[Nick1911]

No, see what the government flunky is mad about is that someone isn't "respectin' his authoritay!!!!"  How DARE the CITIZEN'S disagree with his decree from on high, and then actually DARE to prove him WRONG?  What he's terrified of, is that someone just threatened his position in government.  They not only proved he was wrong, but they did it without a 17 month multi-million dollar study.

I agree, in the story presented, the guy is a self-important dick.

Nick, I agree with you that when we're talking about building a bridge, you really want the pro's doing the work for you...

But then again, even the pro's screw up sometimes:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw

As if an amateur would have designed it better?  Sure, there are sometimes gaps in our knowledge as we, as a culture, learn more about a thing.  There will always be problems that are found the hard way - nuclear reactors will have problems, spacecraft will blow up, aircraft will crash, buildings will fall...  I don't see this as a sign that the experts were wrong and amateurs could have done it better, though.

I'm just noting that before we declare state licensing a bunk, corrupt concept - consider that there are upsides, and reasons for such things.

[makattak]

I agree, in the story presented, the guy is a self-important dick.

As if an amateur would have designed it better?  Sure, there are sometimes gaps in our knowledge as we, as a culture, learn more about a thing.  There will always be problems that are found the hard way - nuclear reactors will have problems, spacecraft will blow up, aircraft will crash, buildings will fall...  I don't see this as a sign that the experts were wrong and amateurs could have done it better, though.

I'm just noting that before we declare state licensing a bunk, corrupt concept - consider that there are upsides, and reasons for such things.

If you'll note, I didn't include all licenses.

Further, though, I don't think the state should be licensing, AMA and ABA would do just fine without it.

Third, the upsides of licensing in some very few areas are FAR outwieghed by the downsides of credentialism.

Do we really need to license teachers? Do we really need to license hairdressers? Do we really need to license Timeshare salesman!??

All but a very few of these licenses exist as a barrier to entry in that profession. As for "as if an amatuer would have designed it better?" Yes, an amatuer very well may have designed it better. No credentials =/= no ability. Could any random amatuer have done it? No, but that wasn't your question.

I'd be willing to bet I'm intelligent enough to apply myself and learn to design and engineer any number of things. Would the credentials have any bearing on my ability to do so?

[Tuco]

When I grow up I want to be Professor Farquharson.

[Nick1911]

I'd be willing to bet I'm intelligent enough to apply myself and learn to design and engineer any number of things. Would the credentials have any bearing on my ability to do so?

Credentials aren't the same thing as ability.  I'm sure there are able people who lack credentials.

The idea behind licensing is that you must PROVE that you have the ability.

You could tell me that you are great at designing houses.  You could tell me that you know all about how to calculate out how big each beam must be, all the loads, etc.

Thing of it is, any bum walking down the street could make the same claim.  How do I know that you actually can walk the walk?  You prove it to some authority, usually by testing.  Holding a license should mean that you have the minimum level of competency to preform a particular professional service.

I do agree though, some of these licenses seem to be simple barriers to entry.

Do we really need to license teachers?

How would you do it?  Base the hiring decision just on the interview, not on what degrees have been conferred or license tests passed?  

[makattak]

Credentials aren't the same thing as ability.  I'm sure there are able people who lack credentials.

The idea behind licensing is that you must PROVE that you have the ability.

You could tell me that you are great at designing houses.  You could tell me that you know all about how to calculate out how big each beam must be, all the loads, etc.

Thing of it is, any bum walking down the street could make the same claim.  How do I know that you actually can walk the walk?  You prove it to some authority, usually by testing.  Holding a license should mean that you have the minimum level of competency to preform a particular professional service.

I do agree though, some of these licenses seem to be simple barriers to entry.

How would you do it?  Base the hiring decision just on the interview, not on what degrees have been conferred or license tests passed? 

How do the licensing boards decide who is worthy of the license?

Further, if a licensing board can do it, wouldn't a company whose livelihood depends on satisfying their customers have a better incentive to assure their employees are competent?

[Tuco]

How do the licensing boards decide who is worthy of the license?

Rigorous testing and verification of apprenticeship or mentoring relationships

Further, if a licensing board can do it, wouldn't a company whose livelihood depends on satisfying their customers have a better incentive to assure their employees are competent?

This does not address the sole proprietorship.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

AMA and ABA would do just fine without it.



demonstrably not

[makattak]

Rigorous testing and verification of apprenticeship or mentoring relationships.

If only a business had some means of doing that...

This does not address the sole proprietorship.

No, it doesn't. If you want to go to a doctor/dentist/engineer/hairdresser without knowing if they are qualified and use their services on nothing beyond their word, go ahead.

I'd like some references, personally. (Kind of like how a business might do it...)

Licensing has very limited usefulness. We're WELL beyond the areas in which it may even be arguably useful, though.

[seeker_two]

http://www.michigan.gov/mdcd/0,1607,7-122--60358--,00.html

Read this list and weep. Weep for the future.

And as an extra tidbit, working as a private investigator without a state license is a felony good for several years in prison. A PI license costs over $600 to obtain. Plus whatever hoops you have to jump through.

It's a lot easier than getting one in Texas....

http://www.tali.org/licensing_requirements.htm

Basically, in addition to the fees and testing, you have to be employed for 3 years in an exclusive field that doesn't hire often....pretty well a locked-out field unless you're related to someone....

If it wasn't for the licensing headache, I'd probably be one. Wonder if I could market myself as a "Personal Researcher" instead?..... 

[MechAg94]

At least in the state of Texas, you don't need a PE license to do internal engineering stuff.  I don't need one to practice within my company.  You need one when you hire out engineering design stuff to 3rd parties or building/design equipment.  My companies engineering and construction side had PE's to approve/sign off on electrical and other design drawings.  Usually, that means the PE is taking on some personal/professional responsibility with that signatures/stamp.

As said, a PE license simply demonstrates minimal competency to do a job.  It not only includes testing, but covers experience within the field you are trying to get licensed for.  That is why they want the apprenticeship or Engineer-in-training time.  I believe you can bypass that if you can demonstrate/document experience in the field. 

[RaspberrySurprise]

It's a lot easier than getting one in Texas....

http://www.tali.org/licensing_requirements.htm

Basically, in addition to the fees and testing, you have to be employed for 3 years in an exclusive field that doesn't hire often....pretty well a locked-out field unless you're related to someone....

If it wasn't for the licensing headache, I'd probably be one. Wonder if I could market myself as a "Personal Researcher" instead?..... 

Michigan is similar, after reading more I saw that you needed either a bachelors in criminal justice or three years of on the job type experience.