Fuel

[Guest]

Subject of Fuel came up.
This subject seems to be as confusing, debatable, and often based on brand loyalty as most other topics.

Since we have folks from all over the US, all over the world, might be interesting to discuss.

I personally drive  a gasoline Truck.
I realize others drive diesel fueled vehicles.

Some questions that came up:

-Quality of European fuels versus US
Interesting point of view the European Fuel is better, add better engines, better lubricating oils, NOT driven by CAFE and such, cars last better and fuels are an important component in longer oil drain intervals than here in the US.

-Differences in various parts of the US
This gets into Re-Formulated, Ethanol gas. MPG goes down, one has to use more fuel to go same distance versus non ethanol gas.

-Using higher Octane in a vehicle that only spec's regular.
For my area we have Premium at 93 octane, Regular is 87. Some suggest using higher octane is not good all the time, not fully burned, causing deposits.

-Top Tier fuels
Some say all but AAmaco Gold come from same pipe. Differences are what is actually in that 1-2 quarts they add per tankerful. Some say more important the tanks meet reqs and to put additives into to tank for tank sake [algae] instead of motor vehicle tank. Hey in the old days we had AAmaco, 105 octane was even available...

-Generic Brand
These are those pumps at the Grocery Stores and Box Stores...
Some say more of a distribution matter - whomever has the price, is what these folks use. Maybe a Top Tier one time delivered, and whatever a non Top Tier would be - next.

--

This all came about when a classmate asked. Granted the semester has not started but some of us have already accessed online class client were we discuss class material. No Syllabus posted...

Anywho, she asked. Came up as she visited with folks that came down for holiday ( forget where). Then one shared how when in Europe , Germany to be specific, he leased the same car there as he has in the States. Bascially he was told the fuel was better, and motor oil better so folks can do longer motor oil change intervals. With the price of oil being higher...
Add the US suggests thinner oil than suggested by "releases" [OEM specs] in Europe. He inquired about other cars too.
His take from his Germany visit - better fuels, better oils, better engines, not have any of these three and total package of long engine life is not going to happen. They [Germany] don't go buy a new vehicle as often as Americans.

Similar notes made in regard to diesel as well.

I concern myself with a station with "hopefully" the better tanks, meet state regs on tank maintenance, filters and how much money I have and if the station is easy to access.
Oh and specials on smokes and if they have any of those desserts , or other food stuff I like. I found one on the way to College that does great Chicken...

Buying gas was just an afterthought.

[280plus]

As far as burning high octane, I burn it in all my vehicles and I recently had 3 of them that went through emissions testing and all three passed with flying colors. This indicates NO unburnt fuel is leaving my vehicles contrary to the popular beliefs you mention. (And I've heard these stories fro TOP auto mechanics) Higher octane means a slower, cooler burn of the fuel in the cylinder and a cooler running engine. Think of it as low octane burning quickly and "slapping" the pistons (worst case is "detonation" or "ping") while slower burning high octane as giving the pistons a nice solid push instead. And there is an upgrade in performance that I can feel when driving. You put low octane in any of my cars or trucks and I can tell as soon as I start driving it. IMHO burning high octane, in the long run, will reduce wear and tear and increase engine life because the engine itself is not doing as much work, the high octane gas is. Now, what is my theory of why the manufacturers poo poo high octane? Simple, they WANT your engine to experience this added wear and tear and they WANT it to have as short a life span as possible. That way they sell more parts and new cars. The products they have already sold make it to the junkyard faster and for them this is job security.

Yes, my FIRST FIL was an accountant for a major oil company in this area. He told us ALL the gas at EVERY station comes from the same tanks down in Hartford. The difference is the additives each brand name introduces.

[TarpleyG]

You put low octane in any of my cars or trucks and I can tell as soon as I start driving it.

Then again you can buy a car that is specifically designed to run on low-octane fuel.  I drive a Chevy Colorado and that was a big selling point for me, esp. coming from an M3 that wouldn't run on anything less than 92.

Greg

[280plus]

OK, but try putting some 93 in there and tell me it doesn't run better. Or better yet, drive a couple tanks of 93 through it and then go back to 89 or 87. Then you'll see the difference. I've heard of people saying they "spoiled" their cars by putting high octane in it. "All it wants to burn now is premium". I'd venture to say it is THEY that got spoiled because they liked the performance of the high octane better.

btw, I don't work for any oil companies or anything

The thing about me is I keep my vehicles, so in the interest of longevity I treat them the best I can and so far it has worked. If your going to trade yours in in every 3-4 years then what do you care if the motor has a shorter lifespan? But if you like performance...

[mfree]

"OK, but try putting some 93 in there and tell me it doesn't run better."

When I drive my shadow, it gets 87. When I put 93 in there it crosses the threshold from "rich" to "power loss rich".

"octane" isn't this magical power-building number higher is better BS you think it is. It's just a measure of preignition tendencies.

[280plus]

When I drive my shadow, it gets 87. When I put 93 in there it crosses the threshold from "rich" to "power loss rich".

On what? I don't follow.

I don't know how else to put it. If I feel an improvement in performance with the higher octane gas or a loss of performance when I put in lower octane gas, what am supposed to think?

[280plus]

here is a link. Maybe I am one caught up in the "Common misconceptions" but read what I have placed in bold. It almost seems to contradict itself saying higher octane gas will not improve performance while the fact that higher octane gas is higher quality gas and may very well boost performance.

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/lane/1970/octane1.html

Octane rating is a measure of a gasoline's anti-knock properties in a liquid motor fuel. The rating represents iso-octane (octane rating of 100) volume in a fuel consisting the mixture of iso-octane and normal heptane (octane rating of 0). As consumers, we use the pump octane and manufacturers recommendation to determine which gasoline to buy.

Note: Knocking/detonation/pinging it a heat related problem, and is eliminated by three main things in the design of the engine; the compression ratio, the timing, and the octane number of the fuel being used.

Note: There is a common misconception here. A lot of people think that the octane number of a fuel has something to do with how fast it burns. This is not the case. The octane number determines how the fuel resists uncontrolled burning, not how fast it burns.

The pump octane is also referred to as the Anti-Knock Index (AKI). AKI is determined based on an average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON). The formula is RON+MON/2 normally abbreviated as R+M/2 on the pump.

The MON is a measure of the gasoline's ability to resist knock under sever operating conditions. MON affects high speed, part throttle and performance (under load such as in passing). The RON on the other hand, is a measure of gasoline's ability to resist knock under less severe conditions. RON affects low to medium speed knock and engine run-on (dieseling). For a given AKI, RON is typically 8-10 points higher than the MON. As an example, 87 AKI (pump octane) fuel would have a MON of 82 and a RON of 92.

You should use the minimum pump octane (AKI) fuel that will run in your engine without knocking. You're wasting your money on higher octane fuels if there aren't needed to control knock. The two most common myths regarding pump octane (AKI) are that it will increase performance and result in better fuel mileage. You may see improvements in your ride due to the cleaners in higher grade, higher quality fuels, but octane by itself will not have any effect.

In Volkswagens, only the 1200s and the newest low compression factory (Mex/Brazilian) engines are happy on fuel with a pump octane (AKI) of 87. In the newer 1600s, fuel with a pump octane of 87 is likely to cause detonation/knocking at high throttle settings. Because the VW engine runs hot, it needs a slightly higher octane fuel for the same compression ratio, compared to water cooled cars. My 1500 has the usual 91 recommendation, for 7.5 compression ratio. I have 1600 barrels and pistons with the original heads, which raises the compression to about 8. It 'just' pings a bit if I floor it at low revs on a hot day, so 91 is a bit marginal for it. I generally use either straight leaded (95 octane), which it is very happy with. It will survive a mixture of leaded/unleaded, if I don't push it hard, and keep the revs up a bit so it doesn't labour.

The octane measurements are a little different these days, but different 'in our favour'. The VW manuals say use 91 RON (Research Octane Rating) where most US ratings are R+M/2 or 'pump octane'. Both descriptions mean the equivalent RON number would be higher, so 91 R+M/2 might be around 92-93 RON. All this means that fuel in the U.S. with an octane rating of 87 R+M/2 might around 88-89 RON, getting close to the '91 RON' VW recommendation, but not close enough to be used all the time.

Detonation/knocking/ pinging can usually be heard as a distinctive pinging or clicking sound on heavy acceleration, especially when the engine is thoroughly warmed up. But sometimes it's a bit hard to hear if it is only 'borderline' happening; however, this would certainly have the feel of a loss of power.

Additives that are used to increase the octane of fuel include -


Toluene (methyl benzene) has a RON of 124 and MON of 112. In the 70s Shell here in Australia used to advertise "Over a pint of Methyl Benzene in every gallon of super Shell"! Toluene is carcinogenic.


MTBE (the usual additive in the US -- smells like turpentine), has a RON of 116 and MON of 103.


TAME (another 'allowed' additive) is not so good at RON 111 and MON 98.


The highest 'natural' fuel component is probably dicylcopentadiene RON 229, MON 167 (and this only occurs in trace amounts).

Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) has been suggested as an alternative to Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) for quite some time now. It doesn't require Bromine or Chlorine scavengers like lead products do; however, it apparently has its own pollution concerns. It was banned by the US EPA in 1978, but this ban was recently lifted everywhere but California. They are still reviewing it and may re-instate the ban at some future date.

Using a good brand 91+ octane gasoline is cheapest in the long run. I suspect, and if the pump says "92 pump octane" or similar, at least you KNOW it has that octane rating. Additives are a bit hit and miss, unless you know exactly what is has in it, and at what concentration.

Another site I read said that someone using 93 instead of 87 might waste as much as $100 per year. That's really not all that much to be worrying about as far as I'm concerned.

[bermbuster]

I just put in the octane it says on the gas cap door.

[Guest]

See...I told ya.

Ain't this more fun than discussing Political Parties, firearm platforms, caliber debates...?

I found out one of the gas station en-route to College is going to start back making breakfast stuff. Bagels, Crossants and soft tortillas with ham, bacon , sausge and eggs on Monday. For lunch are going to be doing Pizza and corn dogs too...
They usually have good specials on smokes...

I'm set...and they even sell gas if'n I need gas.

My biggest complaint with gas stations?  Them stupid pay for air stations for inflating tires. Compressors usually suck  hose is bad, and the coupling sharp as glass.

Bring back the free air!

[Art Eatman]

It's miniscule, but there are more BTU per pound in Regular than in the higher octane-rating gasolines.  Why?  Er, uh, it's about those anti-knock additives.  Not many BTU in a pound of additive, but it's still there in the gasoline.  Think "diluted", although very damned little.

Better oils in Europe?  Er, uh, why do I have the original crankshaft in my 288,000 mile pickup--and I've been using US-refined oil.

Yeah, thinner oils are recommended.  Why?  Because there is less friction and thus less friction losses and thus better fuel mileage.  Every little bit helps.  And, today's machined tolerances on rubbing surfaces in engines are better than in the past.  We have a lot better machine tools nowadays.  Computer-aided and all that.

I've been bending wrenches since 1951.  I've done total overhauls on over a hundred engines, from trucks to race cars.  (Not bad for a home-garage hobbyist)  I've seen US engines that were neat; I've seen European stuff that was junk when it was new.  And vice versa.

"Any idiot can design a water pump for a Rolls Royce.  It takes a savvy engineer to design a water pump that will sell over the counter, exchange, for $13." -- Chevy Engineer, 1962.  Y'know, I've never forgotten that.

In the world of cars, there's an awful lot of "They say..." and "Everybody knows..."  And there's way too much that's just plain BS.

, Art

[brimic]

You only need higher octane if your engine uses a higher compression ratio, turbo, or a supercharger. Most American cars use a compression ratio of around 9:1.

Ethanol.  In parts of my state, and soon the entire state, its mandated that gasoline has 10% ethanol added (thank you Archer Daniels Midland and all of our sellout politicians:( ) which makes a crap fuel. Ethanol raises the octane rating which means they can blend it with poorer grade of gasoline to bring the octane rating up to the minimum of 87. It is very hard on feul systems- if the blended gas sits for as little as a few months it forms varnishes which gum up carbeurators and feul injectors, people in my area will drive 50 miles to get out of the reformulated gasoline zone to fill up their boats in order to avoid expensive repair bills. The fuel itseld is a very poor fuel- one can expect a drop in gasoline milage of up to 10% by putting this garbage in their tanks which is ironically enough, mandated by the Clean Air Act. Another irony is that ethanol addition was lobbied for by environmental groups and now they are lobbying against it, it turns out that ethanol added to gasoline does not cut emissions, but actually increases them because more gasoline needs to be burned to get from point A to point B. Unfortunately, in my state the mandate will never go away, the politicians are whores for the ethanol industry.

[grislyatoms]

Next time y'all see a gasoline tank truck putting his load in the ground at a gas station, hang around for awhile and follow him. See where he draws his loads from, then just sit there and watch which fuel trucks pull in and out of there.

When I was in my early twenties, I hauled around a pig full of flyash and Portland cement. One of the local fuel depots was next door to where I got the cement. Every kind of damned fuel truck in the world would pull in there, except for three: Amoco, Texaco, and Exxon.

All the cheap gas sold to convenience stores, stop and robs, etc. really is the same. As far as Amoco, Texaco, and Exxon are concerned, I don't know for sure, but I never saw one of their trucks pull into the same place the "cheap gas" comes from.

FWIW

P.S. Maybe they disguise their trucks? LOL, tin foil hat time.

[Art Eatman]

Sta-Bil and spray carb cleaner:  The mechanic's friends.

, Art

[matis]

His take from his Germany visit - better fuels, better oils, better engines, not have any of these three and total package of long engine life is not going to happen.

I don't think that's accurate.

I drive a 2000 Mazda B3000 (really a rebadged Ford Ranger) pickup truck.

My first American vehicle in decades.  Until the last, (maybe) 8 years, I think no one could beat the Japanese for reliability and longevity.

It's no longer true.

American vehicles have just about closed the quality gap.

I got the truck, sort of by accident.  Went to car auction looking for a Toyota or Nissan.  Late in day, my truck came through the line, no one bid, so I made a low-ball offer.  The dealer's man took it.  Guess he didn't want to haul it back to the dealership.


Truck has 48,000 miles; bought it with 13K mi.  Had 2 minor repairs: O2 sensor replaced on warranty & speed sensor I replaced for $23.  Truck runs like a top.  I change the oil/filter, use cheap gas -- never a problem.

I go on a forum: Ford Truck Enthusiasts, to learn what I can about my vehicle.

I read some threads about "How many miles on your truck?"

Couldn't believe what they were saying.

Even 4 bangers routinely get over 200,000 miles without going into engine; sometimes without going into transmission!

Some have gone over 300K mi(!) before having to work on engine.  Too many to be lying.



In what way can European vehicles top this?  So if we had "better" fuels and oils we'd get what -- 400-500K mi?


I'm back to American vehicles.


(Did I mention I love my truck?)


matis

[brimic]

One thought on European fuels and longevity- their deisel fuel is much higher quality and they run a lot more cars on deisel than we do. Deisel engines are built alot more solidly than a gasoline engine because of the pressures necessary for running a deisel. A deisel should easily run 250-300k or more without an overhaul. About the only deisels put in cars in America were Oldsmobiles in the early 80s- these were basicly blocks from gasoline engines refitted to run as a deisel and consequently were underbuilt, underperformed, and had poor reliability.

[Guest]

Art,
I was waitin'

I guess my Mentors & Elders instilled in me : "Dont't get wrapped around the axel".

As I get older - the more I understand about these "dimensions" these Mentors & Elders shared.

I know from personal experience many Brand Names or Companies are not what they used to be. Name is the same - the Company is not. I know not everything in a Manufacuter's  is "quality", there is no Holy Grails and for sure NO Holy Grails by being Brand Loyal.

Sales Reps I dealt with used American Cars mostly. Chevy, Ford ,Buick mostly, and mostly because of Trunk Space as to what car was bought. These folks would put as much as 70K mi in one year. Plain Vanilla going 300K to 500Kmiles.
Windshields were bought, travel enough and trucks kicking up rocks do that. Tires, of course. Never really any problems. Whatever Dino oil at 3 months (didn't go by mileage) and whatever gas the company credit card was...regular of course.

One Rep finally bought himself a Mercedes. He had put 600K miles on his last Olds, gave it to his landscape guy. He put over a Million miles on the MB. When that MB hit a million miles - he said he would retire, he did.

He did what the book said to do for his type of driving with a diesel.

The reality is - most sales reps had no engine problems. Transmissions sometimes had to be replaced. Rusting out bodies due to locations around the country , or getting in an accident caused more problems than mechanical problems.

Like most things in life - folks making a fuss over matters that don't need fussing over - and not paying attention to matters that do.

My gut feeling is many engines today are built by whiz kids on a computer. No dirty fingernail engineering experience - keyboard and book learning only. The engine is "designed" - perhaps driven by EPA ...maybe to make brownie points, or get a longer recess... something.

When said engine is built is then requires a Lubrication Engineer to make it work...read" bail whiz kid's butt out of a tight spot.

I think there is Bell Curve to most stuff. One can engineer not enough - or over engineer. Moderation in everything seems to apply to engineering as well.

One aspirin is good so four must be better. Mario Andretti does this - so gotta be good for Grandparents Buick handed down to them...

I have my druthers on some things, then again some stuff is not that big of a deal. I prefer being able to have the pump on driver's side as that is where gas access is on my truck...been known to toss the hose over the bed from passenger side and pump too...

Of course I am the guy that used a pocket knife to sharpen a number 2 pencil in class because the whiz bang pencil sharpener was eating pencils...not sure if the classmates had never seen a number 2 pencil, a knife, or both...

*sigh*

I should be a real riot when I get older...

[280plus]

Sta-Bil and spray carb cleaner:  The mechanic's friends.

I hate to say it but my lawnmower repair guy tells me that even WITH sta-bil (which I use) there are still problems with the ethanol eating the rubber gaskets etc. He recommends running out all gas from any small engine device you have before extended storage. ie, the snowblower at the end of winter. I recall way back when the ethanol craze started Rogers corp (who makes the plastic material carberator floats are (were) made of) had a hell of a time with the ethanol eating away those plastic floats.

[Art Eatman]

Bits & Pieces:

European cities and towns, away from main boulevards, have narrow streets.  They had no choice but to develop small cars.  Couple that with high gasoline taxes, and guess what?  Further, many of the rural roads are very curvy and twisty.  So, good handling was a necessity.

In the US, we've had room for wide streets and straight-line roads.  With low gas taxes, there was no reason not to build a four-wheeled living room.

Per Consumer Union, back in the "bad old days" of "US cars aren't any good", the second and third owners of American-made cars had lower repair costs than foreign-made cars.  The gripes were based on dealer warranty comebacks.  IOW, poor folks benefitted from buying "used junkers" at a low market price.  He-he:  So did guys like me, who do all my own repairs.

Americans hate to do routine maintenance.  The Europeans are the opposite.  So, an American's engine starts to crap out, and rather than pay $3K to kiss the ouchy and make it well, he goes in hock for another $15K for a new car.  Duh?

The average American drives some 15K miles a year.  Roughly.  An engine, nowadays, lasts at least 100K miles and often more.  Auto-trans, with maintenance (except '95 GMC) will go way beyond 100K.  Many people buy new cars on a three-year or four-year cycle.  Factory sales are based on the new-car buyer.  So, why build a 20-year car in the first place, for a mass market?  GMC isn't selling Rolls Royces, and for a good economic reason.

Guys who think nothing of buying a $100 hunting knife when an old Barlow will do, will pee and moan when a bottom-of-the-line car won't outrun Earnhardt, get 50 mpg, and last 500K miles with no repairs...

Oh, and it's methanol, not ethanol.  Ethanol is in bourbon.

Art

[grislyatoms]

Actually, both ethanol (grain alcohol) and methanol (wood alcohol) are used. 10% ethanol is used here, in the winter, anyway.

Methanol is even worse for an engine than ethanol!

[280plus]

Yea, ours says "contains 10% ethanol" on the pumps.

Guys who think nothing of buying a $100 hunting knife when an old Barlow will do, will pee and moan when a bottom-of-the-line car won't outrun Earnhardt, get 50 mpg, and last 500K miles with no repairs...

Reminds me of a good one somebody told me once. ENGINEERS are quite famous for the above (no offense to any engineers present) and this one in particular bought a Ford Escort a while back. Well, he felt it was too noisy and took it back. They told him that's pretty much how Escorts are becaus e it's not exactly a luxury model. This guy went as far as to put decibel meters all over the inside of the car to read the decibel levels while driving and to compare them to what I don't know. Either way, the bottom line was that the bottom line was the problem. Guess what, cheap cars tend to be noisy.

[Art Eatman]

I admit to not paying close attention.  I do remember back when the yap-yap first started about boozing up the gasoline, there was some flak from BATF about the tax on ethanol.  $10/gallon, back then. ($20, now, I think.)  Well, BATF IS a tax outfit, right?  I guess they got spanked down.

We have some snowbirds with gas-engined RVs that discover how bad "winter gasoline" is when the weather warms up.  They'll have it in their tank, and come April they'll head out of Terlingua.  Now, even in April we can get mid-day temperatures up toward 100F.  They head up the mountain out of town and can't pull it.  So, back the RV down and turn around and go to our local garage.  Archie patiently explains--for the hundredth time--that they gotta go fill up with high test, get it all mixed, and then leave early in the morning when it's cool...

Art