Author Topic: "Painful" budget cuts?  (Read 6687 times)

AZRedhawk44

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"Painful" budget cuts?
« on: January 11, 2011, 10:23:55 AM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7095FB20110110

This is about Jerry Brown in CA and their $25 billion deficit... but it made me think of government budget cuts anywhere.

They always use the word "painful."  However, the only pain I ever feel (or any of my friends/family) is  the constant lobbying war from SEIU or the NEA when the debate opens up.  When the cuts are actually made, I never see any change in the quality of my life.  More often than not, "painful" budget cuts wind up cutting my taxes and I have a BETTER quality of life.

Does that make me a masochist?  Bring on the pain! >:D
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Jamisjockey

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 10:26:00 AM »
Most of us are already in pain from the amount of taxes we pay, mostly to feed unnecesary programs and projects.

JD

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 10:38:25 AM »
I saw this story yesterday, and I'm actually shocked (in a good way, at least for CA) that Brown is looking to slash budgets as much as he is. I was expecting even bigger tax increases versus extending the "temporary" (ha!) tax increases. Obviously it still sucks, but frankly I think Brown is being more conservative than Arnie was. How sad is that?
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SADShooter

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 10:41:17 AM »
The question for me is, will he get more cooperation from the Legislature than Arnie did?
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longeyes

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 11:53:30 AM »
Brown is still Brown, and he still won't touch K-12 ed, public sector pensions, or illegal aliens.  Unfortunately, that is where most of the problems lie.
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HankB

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 12:24:01 PM »
The question for me is, will he get more cooperation from the Legislature than Arnie did?
I think a lot of California legislators (and the idiots morons illegal aliens who vote for them) were, deep down, counting on a Federal bailout. But with a new GOP majority in the House, largely from states that haven't soiled their own fiscal house to the degree California has, it may be dawning on them that they can kiss those hopes goodbye. So maybe - just maybe - they may swallow the bitter pill of fiscal responsibility.

An awful lot of what states spend their money on really isn't needed . . . I remember some 20 or so years ago when I was living in Minnesota, the majority of state (union) employees went on strike. Roads were still maintained, lights and water stayed on, police, fire, EMS kept working, schools were open . . . the ONLY group that seemed put out were students at U of MN, who had longer lines to stand in during registration, since the supervisory staff in the registrar's office wasn't bright enought to hire students as temps the way my old college did.

By the second week, people were openly talking about how UN-missed these folks were . . . and it wasn't long after that a settlement was reached. It wouldn't have been "painful" to most taxpayers if the majority of these folks - and their jobs - were permanently cut.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 10:58:19 AM by HankB »
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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 11:56:21 AM »
Painful?

Only to those feeding at the trough.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 02:43:08 PM »
Painful?

Only to those feeding at the trough.

Exactly.

Brown's latest bit is to cut way back on the number of taxpayer-funded cell phones for state employees.  As expected, there was much whining from said employees: "B-b-but we need our cell phones!"  So buy one with your own money, bucko.  That's what I (and most people) do.
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longeyes

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2011, 05:43:25 PM »
The state should never have been providing perks like these in the first place.  But who knew?  The truth is there are LOTS of perks like these as the line between business and personal gets blurred in civil service. 

They keep adding furlough days.  Anything but cut salaries.  Eventually we'll be paying gov't workers the same salaries for half-time work.  That, obviously, is NOT a solution.
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Tallpine

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 07:04:50 PM »
The state should never have been providing perks like these in the first place.  But who knew?  The truth is there are LOTS of perks like these as the line between business and personal gets blurred in civil service. 

At one time the company I worked for provided me with a cell phone. 

No more.

But I am pretty much still expected to have one.
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griz

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 08:09:22 AM »
I think it's interesting the way the rhetoric works.  A 5% budget cut is "painful", but a 5% tax increase is a "moderate increase".
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BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 12:37:30 PM »
No, it does cause "pain" to a lot of people.  There's the people receiving the services (not always or even often welfare, which is subject to some tight federal rules), the people administering them who have to learn new regs, the parents who have to do more school fundraising, the charities that to change distribution of funds, the employees--including people like jury clerks and the like, they aren't all superfluous--that have to change schedules, budgets, etc.

But that's ok, change has to happen sometimes.

I kind of like it when liberals admit what conservatives have known all along: That change, especially quick, sweeping change, is usually a bad thing, or at least a difficult thing, that should not be effected lightly.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 12:57:53 PM »
Oh, no doubt, some people feel it as "pain".  But what of it?

Sure, there will be those for whom their boon is being cut or eliminated.  If we presume these boons are normal and proper, that they're the correct baseline from which to make any future comparisons, then it might well seem like a loss when they go away.  But such a premise is false.  When it comes to government largess, those boons are not rightfully theirs to begin with, and withdrawing them doesn't abuse or diminish those people in any way.

Ending the gravy train is correctly understood as ending pain among those who are presently being fleeced to fund it.  It provides relief and succor to those who've long needed it.  
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 01:05:05 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 05:24:42 AM »
Quote
I kind of like it when liberals admit what conservatives have known all along: That change, especially quick, sweeping change, is usually a bad thing, or at least a difficult thing, that should not be effected lightly.

This mindset is why we lose.

Let me say that again: this mindset is why we lose. Because that's exactly what Progressives – openly – count on.

They know that once a program is old enough that it becomes the new normal, it is difficult to dislodge. That's why they talk about the third rail of Social Security, for example.

The problem is that we are not merely opposed to the Welfare State because it takes our hard-earned money and gives it to the oor. We're not merely opposed to the Welfare State because it is economically less effective than freedom. We are opposed to it because it is morally wrong.

The Welfare State is not merely a redistributive system – that would be tolerable. It is also a regulatory system. It spawns thousands of people who believe, well and truly, that it is their job and holy duty to educate our children for us, to inspect our homes and steal said children if they feel we're raising them wrong, to decide what we eat, what we smoke, what guns we protect ourselves with, what we read, what we draw, what we write. The exact extent of this distribution differs from state to state and nation to nation, but the problem is the same everywhere, from Estonia to Australia, from New York to Anchorage.

If we agree that the system is morally wrong – that it is oppressive – then there is only one morally correct choice.

Revolution.

I do not mean in this the old insurrectionist vision, men and women with rifles seizing the palaces of government. I mean: dissolve and dismember the welfare state, by political means, as swiftly as possible. Do not merely downsize agencies – mercilessly dissolve them. Anything else will mean they will grow again once you turn your back on them. Increasing the budget of an agency takes a legislative session. Restoring an agency that has been dissolved, its facilities sold off, its archives abolished, can take years upon years.

Let me say it again. If we believe that the system is morally wrong – that it is oppressive – then we are not to tolerate its existence. If it is morally wrong, then those men who work in it bear the individual moral responsibility for it and are complicit in it.

If we truly love freedom, then our battlecry should be that of the abolitionists. We must not stay our hand because the people who oppress us whine that they will be unemployed. The whole point is rendering them unemployed.

Those who seek to expand the state are  merciless. They don't care for the suffering of an individual imprisoned because he owned the wrong shape of gun, or grew the wrong plant, or fined because he violated some regulatory decree. Why should we have mercy for them?

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BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 11:33:08 AM »
Let me say that again: this mindset is why we lose. Because that's exactly what Progressives – openly – count on.

What you mean "we"?

What your post highlights is that there is a fundamental difference between small-l libertarians and small-c conservatives.  I am without a doubt a small-c conservative.  I don't buy into any of the "Let's mandhandle new-fangled evangelical notions of power and control of the whole (read abortion, etc) into national Conservative policy,"  but I do think that change in and of itself, while a great thing for individuals, is a very difficult and often a bad thing for nations.  Stability is good.  As national revolutions go, I wish that all nations could manage to model themselves on Canada. 

I think that something can be in and of itself morally wrong and yet be the morally correct choice. 

Welfare state?  No, it is not moral.  No, I do not think it should be dismantled tomorrow.  I think it is immoral for a state to implement social policies that create class systems and then leave the various victims of those class systems--the welfare babies, the small business owner who paid onerous taxes for years and then lost everything, in no small part because of the onerous tax burden he bore for years--high and dry and begging in the streets, before there are adequate non-governmental systems for keeping the devastation of poverty at bay.  Right now, many private charities, for example, are structured to address welfare gaps.  They don't target the non-homeless destitute, because those people are in large part cared for by the government.  Many programs actually require that one have been turned down for government services before their rules permit them to assist. I absolutely abhor any kind of Randian revolution in which anyone not sufficiently handy in Galt's Gulch is left to die.  Couple reasons for this, one of which is that it is generally a huge negative in any society to have a large underclass without the resources for its members to improve their lives.

I think the welfare state should be reformed, with legislation that requires and allots funds for assessment and further reform after a period of time.  I support incremental scaling back of the welfare state.  I think it's more appropriate to begin with things like adding higher copays for medicare/aid, or limitations on non-essential services, or to cut back on the number/type of stores that accept foodstamps.  I think it would be appropriate to build greater disincentives to using the system and make changes that make it easier to get off it and more difficult to stay on it (for example, to get ON straight cash benefits type welfare, one currently must go about thirty days with no/minimal [under $200/month] income of any kind.  In my experience, this makes it hard to use welfare cash benefits as a stopgap to get over a hump, instead, the process of getting on it, gets one--to mix metaphors a bit--further into the hole.  I was just lucky this happened for me right before Christmas when some family members gave me gifts of cash.  But this type of system means that once one is on welfare, one tends to be very hesitant to get off of it.  So, I support, for example, instead of cutting off benefits (except in some few cases) after two years, tapering benefits after, oh, four months or so.  Don't cut off benefits entirely as soon as one gets any income--that is foolish and discourages taking any risks to try to build self-sufficency; it creates a welfare class that at first is afraid to do better and after a generation or two can't be bothered to do better and after another generation or two doesn't even think about trying to do it differently and has no concept of better.  Offer a tax incentive to families for the year after they have gotten off welfare.  Right now all families on cash assistance qualify for medicaid.  Right, if we want to end welfare, let all families qualify for medicaid for twelve months after getting off cash assistance. 

Don't get rid of foodstamps immediately, lower the amount of foodstamps.  No family of three needs $526/month in food to eat well, let alone to survive; to offer it is to subvert thriftiness and makes these families more likely to fail at budgeting when they get off foodstamps.  Section 8 housing?  Right now the way it works is you get on a waiting list and after months or years, you get a voucher that covers all or most of your rent, unless your income rises.  Seriously?  So, this program is not designed as a safety net to prevent people from becoming homeless and therefore a drain on everyone else, but to encourage people who stay poor for long enough to get on the program to stay poor for longer.  No welfare program should be set up to continue indefinitely.  Those benefits should also taper off--after a longer period of time, to allow people to build self-sufficiency.  A family is in a $900/month apartment on Section 8 that they cannot to pay the rent on?  Offer an option to taper benefits down, or to accept assistance with moving costs to move into more affordable housing. 

Sweeping change hurts more than it helps.  There is no Galt's Gulch and there is no way to isolate the "righteous" from everyone else and the widespread economic and social collapse that will occur if all government social welfare programs--from cash benefits to social security to medical benefits to student financial aid to public schools and universities--disappeared overnight.  You think that in simply dissolving vast segments of government and the work they do, you are going to somehow avoid insurrection?  That there won't be gangs of men and women with rifles seizing the "palaces of government" and whatever else they want?

I live in a capital city.  I'm not particularly fond of the thought of downtown Lansing being a sea of vacant buildings, and several thousands of newly unemployed and destitute ex-government workers squatting in the ruins. 

The progressives--at least in the US--believe in widespread sweeping change that spends more, adds more, employs more, all by seizing incremental amounts from the productive classes.  This may be immoral--and I think that to a degree it is--but it tends to lead to less chaos and insurrection than the converse, widespread sweeping change that dismantles and destroys and fires, and in the process secures incremental gains for the productive classes.  It would not lead to Galt's Gulch, it would lead to chaos, disaster, and the smoking ruins of a lot more than downtown Lansing. 

Oh, and speaking of downtown Lansing, do you know how many hard-working private small business people your revolution would destroy?  The failure rate of businesses in this town would approach 100%. 

Why should we have mercy for "them"?  1) Because they are people, and we are people, and it is moral for a person to have mercy for other people.  2) Because "they" buy "our" products and services, and we don't want our income to drop by 50% for long enough to render a tax savings of 90% moot.  3) Because it is immoral to, as a nation, build a system of civil service and build property interests in those jobs and then then simply dissolve them.  4) Because I don't want to robbed at gunpoint if I dare leave my house by gangs of disenfranchised government workers and former welfare recipients.  5) Because it is immoral to deliberately destroy people by the thousand for your own arguable idea of morality.  6) Because there is no "them" and "we."  Claiming that that is the case is very popular with foolish people who over-intellectualize morality and the expense of good sense.  I do not want to live in a world that we have utterly destroyed for the sake of morality. 

And so I maintain--cutting spending radically is painful.  As a conservative, I consider sweeping change difficult and often not a good thing.  Sometimes it is warranted.  To the point where it destroys the entire nation in order to serve an extremist view of "morality"?

Um. No, thank you.

I'll stick with being a conservative on this point.

Tallpine

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 01:46:13 PM »
Quote
Welfare state?  No, it is not moral.  No, I do not think it should be dismantled tomorrow.  I think it is immoral for a state to implement social policies that create class systems and then leave the various victims of those class systems--the welfare babies, the small business owner who paid onerous taxes for years and then lost everything, in no small part because of the onerous tax burden he bore for years--high and dry and begging in the streets, before there are adequate non-governmental systems for keeping the devastation of poverty at bay.

Doesn't really matter, because at some point the whole system is going to be bankrupt and the whole thing will fall at once.

The USSA cannot borrow, steal, or print enough money to keep going forever.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2011, 02:34:02 PM »
BW:

It's gonna happen anyway.  Best bet is to plan for dramatic cut-offs.

When our debt risk is downgraded, it will send the interest rates on our debt through the roof.  The gravy train will come to an abrupt halt, as the costlier-to-finance debt consumes even more of the revenue. 

The timing of that screeching halt is currently an unknown.  Not sure when it is going to happen, but the debt-raters are making noise in that direction.

Pretty much, it is going to come to a halt and it is not going to be a soft landing.  The sooner we do it, the more slope/cushion (like you describe) we can build into it.  I fear that soft landing option is likely past and even if it isn't, expect BHO and the congresscritters to fiddle until that point comes.  The time for tweaks and reforms is soon rushing to an end.  Goodbye scalpel, hello meat axe.

We can see mass riots in places, like Greece, have done an abrupt cut-back.  Not very pretty. 

IMO, less likely to happen in the USA.  Try that crap in Big D and it'll be a turkey shoot.  Mass riots marching about won't get very far, once they hit lower-middle class & better neighborhoods.  It is a possibility I have discussed with neighbors, all of whom have been given permission to defend Casa Roo_ster in case I am not here.  They have, similarly, given me leave to reciprocate.  Anybody think that, if rioters do manage to make it to a LMC+ neighborhood with folks' family's in them, that there won't be an unlimbering of deer rifles, the likes of the fools in Greece have never seen?

Also, we saw what a few Koreans did back during the LA riots, as the rioters tried to move into better neighborhood to pillage.  Private citizens are less likely to hold back than LEOs in riot gear, when defending what's theirs.

Oh, some garden spots, like Chicago, DC, and other urban paradises with heavy gun restriction and a docile population will take riots in the face.  Reminds me of the old joke:
"Did you hear about the tornado that tore through Little Rock, Arkansas?  It did $20million in improvements."

Not sure where your town lies on the continuum from Big D to DC, riot-resistance-wise.  Might be worth a thought as you plan your future.
Regards,

roo_ster

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MillCreek

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2011, 03:15:19 PM »
I liked BW's thoughtful post.
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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2011, 04:48:11 PM »
The only thing is that if the system collapses, which is possible at the current rate, the recipient class will be tossed out into the street with a failing economy.  At least if the system were dismantled before that, there would be hope of the economy absorbing the new working class, and a possibly boom to the economy in the long run with a cheap, legal labor pool. 
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Tallpine

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2011, 05:27:08 PM »
Quote
The only thing is that if the system collapses, which is possible inevitable at the current rate

Fixed  ;)
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BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2011, 06:03:35 PM »
Greece has not dismantled every entitlement program and regulatory function of government.  They have made major cutbacks.  I'm on board with major cutbacks; even with abrupt ones when necessary. 

I am not on board with dismantling the vast majority of state and federal government overnight.  You think if you did that your biggest problem would be welfare rabble, easily dispersed by effective home defense?  Departments of Natural Resources or similar and the National Park Service are regulatory agencies.  You think none of those employees are armed?  Ditto the DEA.  Ditto the FDA.

You seriously don't see any difference between the LA race riots and the prospect of disenfranchising as once hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people, many middle class, many armed, throughout the country? 

The argument that this should be done anyway, regardless of consequences, to prevent other (less bad) things from happening is blatantly irrational.  I am not going to burn my house down because it has some faulty wiring and HVAC problems that will inevitably continue to get worse until the house is uninhabitable.  This kind of anarcho-libertarinism *is* progressive, in the same that Marxism is a particularly progressive form of socialism.  The Russian Revolution could be described as an attempt to bring about a better future by throwing what one believes to be the inevitable end result of decades of progress into the present, regardless of human or infrastructure of economic cost.  So could this proposed "solution." 

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »
Quote
What you mean "we"?

I mean we. I mean libertarians and conservatives often fail to achieve their libertarian and conservative goals for lack of radicalism.

Now, political peaceful change is rarely overnight, if only because the system is already laden down by means to slow down and moderate change. There is no need for us to moderate ourselves further, because the method we are using, that of peaceful advancement, is itself a moderator. Those of us who support individual freedom need to be radical because the system itself tends to moderate those who are in it, in Ben Gurion's words: “I asked for all of it so we could get half.”

I am not – unlike Roo_ster and some other erstwhile posters – wise in the ways of economics. I believe – based on my own limited knowledge and reading of a few economics books – that liberty generates more growth than what we have now, but I am not sure about the whole 'inevitable collapse' thing. It's quite possible that it will last, or that it will get reconstructed after the crash as long as people still wish to reconstruct it.

Which is why we must be merciless.

The state system is a machine. It's various mechanisms – schools, regulators, prisons – are designed to reinforce each other, to reinforce the ideas that support it, to punish and observe and promote. It's mechanisms are mutually supporting in a myriad ways, from public radio to public-sponsored universities to DARE to BATFE – or whatever equivalent there is in Sweden, France, or Canada, the problem is not solely American.

History teaches us that wherever a society of a given kind – feudal, welfare-state, socialist, doesn't matter – persists for decades, it evolves social mechanisms to continue existing – to replicate its ideology, to make sure men depend on it, etc. A government system is a living beast of its own, with sinews of bureaucracy and muscle of enforcement and  educational systems for nerves and layers of stored wealth for fat.

Suppose the system does not die of its own like Roo_ster predicts. Suppose it remains, fixed to its current proportionate size of about 20% of GDP. As GDP grows – as it did even during this fiscal crisis -  the government will be able to afford more and more enforcement, more and more surveillance (the cost of surveillance equipment is falling). At the very best, there's going to be as much of it as ther eis now. And I should condemn myself, my loved ones, any children I might have – to a future of pat-downs, and zero-tolerance, and no-knock warrants without end in sight, because widdle Shmuckatelli will be unemployed? And because if Agent Shmuckatelli is unemployed, he's going to rob my house

Time and time again, the radical solution has been rejected by conservatives. Taft was defeated in primaries, Goldwater was abandoned by large fractions of the party, Ron Paul was never seriously considered. And government continued to grow. Not in all fields – in many senses America is freer today than it was in the 1960's – but government continue to grow. The vision of a return to Constitutional roots was rejected, and therefore conservatives managed to be repelled, time and time again, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

It's important to understand this in the same way you do gun ownership. Self-defense instructors tell us that if you're ready to fire your gun at another person, most of the time you will not have to. In the same way, if you're morally ready to destroy the system overnight, you will be then able to do so over a span of several years. If you are not morally ready to do it, you will not be able to do so at all, and it will live on for decades.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2011, 06:57:03 PM »
Quote
Departments of Natural Resources or similar and the National Park Service are regulatory agencies.  You think none of those employees are armed?  Ditto the DEA.  Ditto the FDA.

Are you seriously arguing that America's law enforcement are such incredible scumbags as to violently assault random people because they have lost their jobs?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MillCreek

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2011, 06:58:32 PM »
MB, so please give us your alternative arrangements that ensure a productive and functional society.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

tyme

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2011, 07:11:36 PM »
Apropos FT article that's been on drudge for the last day:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/31dbce8a-1f52-11e0-8c1c-00144feab49a.html

Quote from: BridgeWalker
Don't get rid of foodstamps immediately, lower the amount of foodstamps.  No family of three needs $526/month in food to eat well,

That is dangerous, I think, because it assumes no connection between more expensive foods and health.  Healthcare costs are skyrocketing.  If an extra $50 or perhaps even $100/mo/person of food (not "extra", but replacing less nutritious foods with more nutritious foods) ends up extending your life by a decade, or reducing surgical and pharmaceutical costs beginning at middle age, it could easily be worth it, even from the viewpoint of the government's balance sheet.

But I agree in the sense that a bunch of people who are spending a lot on junk food, which encompasses the majority of people on food stamps, could get the same nutrition they are getting now for much less than $175/mo/person.

Quote from: BridgeWalker
Sweeping change hurts more than it helps.  There is no Galt's Gulch and there is no way to isolate...

Reminds me of a recent article in The Atlantic.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/8343/
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