Author Topic: "Painful" budget cuts?  (Read 6688 times)

Tallpine

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2011, 07:28:45 PM »
MB, so please give us your alternative arrangements that ensure a productive and functional society.

How are you going to ensure that anyway when we get to the point of double-digit interests rates and inflation  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2011, 07:30:31 PM »
Are you seriously arguing that America's law enforcement are such incredible scumbags as to violently assault random people because they have lost their jobs?

Feed the children who are starving or rob a stranger at gunpoint?  Yeah, I can see many choosing the latter.

BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2011, 07:34:33 PM »
conservative goals [fail] for lack of radicalism.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

No, conservatism doesn't only mean 'opposing change'.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2011, 08:17:17 PM »
Let me quote, here, a conservative organization.

""Our movement will be entirely destructive, and entirely constructive. We will not try to reform the existing institutions. We only intend to weaken them, and eventually destroy them. We will endeavor to knock our opponents off-balance and unsettle them at every opportunity. All of our constructive energies will be dedicated to the creation of our own institutions."

"We will use guerrilla tactics to undermine the legitimacy of the dominant regime. We will take advantage of every available opportunity to spread the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with the existing state of affairs. For example, we could have every member of the movement put a bumper sticker on his car that says something to the effect of "Public Education is Rotten; Homeschool Your Kids." This will change nobody's mind immediately; no one will choose to stop sending his children to public schools immediately after seeing such a bumper sticker; but it will raise awareness and consciousness that there is a problem. Most of all, it will contribute to a vague sense of uneasiness and dissatisfaction with existing society. We need this if we hope to start picking people off and bringing them over to our side. We need to break down before we can build up. We must first clear away the flotsam of a decayed culture."
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2011, 08:29:01 PM »
No, conservatism doesn't only mean 'opposing change'.

No, Conservativism has taken on several other meanings in several contents, including politically.  But it also means generally in favor of preserving the status quo.  I do believe I made it pretty clear that I was talking about that variety of conservatism when I first laid out the point I was making. 

No, Boris, the type of conservatism about which I speak and which I prefer politically does not mean "radically in favor of the destruction of all current institutions with the express intent of destroying our culture to that we can remake it in our own preferred image."  But thank you for clarifying what a liberal friend of mine was saying when she called certain "conservative" groups fascists.  I owe her an apology; I thought she was wrong.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2011, 08:42:29 PM »
Two meanings of the term exist. One of them is not wrong, they both represent  opposite aspects.

One of them is the belief in free markets and traditional values, and individual liberty some extent (Bear in mind I do not subscribe to that world-view, though I find it more sympathetic), and the other is the support of the status quo. There exists, as I stated, tension between these views.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2011, 08:49:08 PM »
Greece has not dismantled every entitlement program and regulatory function of government.  They have made major cutbacks.  I'm on board with major cutbacks; even with abrupt ones when necessary. 

I am not on board with dismantling the vast majority of state and federal government overnight.  You think if you did that your biggest problem would be welfare rabble, easily dispersed by effective home defense?  Departments of Natural Resources or similar and the National Park Service are regulatory agencies.  You think none of those employees are armed?  Ditto the DEA.  Ditto the FDA.

You seriously don't see any difference between the LA race riots and the prospect of disenfranchising as once hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people, many middle class, many armed, throughout the country? 

The argument that this should be done anyway, regardless of consequences, to prevent other (less bad) things from happening is blatantly irrational.  I am not going to burn my house down because it has some faulty wiring and HVAC problems that will inevitably continue to get worse until the house is uninhabitable.  This kind of anarcho-libertarinism *is* progressive, in the same that Marxism is a particularly progressive form of socialism.  The Russian Revolution could be described as an attempt to bring about a better future by throwing what one believes to be the inevitable end result of decades of progress into the present, regardless of human or infrastructure of economic cost.  So could this proposed "solution." 

And the Greeks riot, nonetheless.  Too many riot cops, not enough interested & armed shop keepers, too great a sense of entitlement.

Feds get fired, their issue guns get taken back by the remaining federales.  Unless they want to be go-to-fed-prison sorts of felons from the get-go for stealing federale firearms.  That's one heckuva hole to start in.  Those firearms go back to the gov't, even the ones with "da switch."  Heck, even with their issue weapons, I am likely better armed & trained in their use.  Uncle Sam spent lots of money on me & my buddies(1).  Some of my buddies went into some of those agencies.  They were not impressed with the training or their fellow feds. 

Also, they (or most/any others) are not likely to go all feral like you posit.  The rioters in LA rioted becasue they were mostly scum and entitlement-dependent for generations.  This country has been in the dumps, before, as in "Great Depression" dumps, with a very small uptick in crime.  My grandparents did not turn into Bonnie and Clyde when their bank deposits went "poof."  The USA has a different culture than Greece or the other Euros.  Over there, they riot if transfer payments are curbed.  Over here, we develop the Tea Party.

Sorry, comparing stopping transfer payments butt-cold to marxism is laughable, for all reasonable definitions of marxism.  Also, it is not even anarcho-libertarianism(2).  It was the natural state of things in the USA up to FDR, and the USA was neither marxist nor anarcho-capitalist before then.  Heck, even MB is wrong/melodramatic by calling it radical.   Our country managed 100+ years without entitlements without being radical.  It can do so again.

Stopping transfer payments is not disenfranchisement, it is disentitlement.  BIG difference.

It would have been nice to wean dependent folks off the dole over time.  It would have been do-able and would have been my preference.  We may not have that luxury.  If our bond ratings drop, the cost to finance the debt could double, triple, quadruple.  A bond trader could better quantify the difference.  That would mean, assuming not another borrowed dollar is spent [hold your laughter], the percentage of federal revenues going to finance the debt goes from a current 5+% to 10-20-30% of federal revenues(3).  At that point, the wheels come off the entitlement cart.  Buh-bye, half our Navy & armed forces.  Buh-bye transfer payments.  The welfare state is a failure and unsustainable.

Maybe the GOP in Congress will steer us away from the cliff and gain us some time, God willing.  It is something I pray for. 

Of course, the gov't could flood the market with dollars and devalue the dollar to keep the same dollar number of transfer payments, while the dollar value inflates to worthlessness.  Those consequences are also grave.

But thank you for clarifying what a liberal friend of mine was saying when she called certain "conservative" groups fascists.  I owe her an apology; I thought she was wrong.

You owe her a slap to the face, as she is a nitwit who doesn't know thing one about American conservatism, if that is the sort of nonsense dribbling out of her mouth.

American conservatism has long had a strong classical liberal streak, tempered by a respect for culture and tradition.  Euro conservatism is a different critter, but it is also incorrect to label it fascism.




(1) My neighbor behind me was a sniper in SE Asia, got tired of that & learned to fly helos, got shot down, spent time as a POW, and is "the world's best educated redneck" with the EE PhD he earned after coming home from VN.  We have made plans for mutual assistance.  I am not so full of myself to think I or my neighbor are particularly unique. 


(2) That is the sort of analysis that defines interstate commerce as including intrastate commerce.  It may pass muster in our courts, but reality has a harsher judge.

(3) Medicaid by itself (just the state-financed portion, to be precise), if unchecked, will grow to consume the entirety of the Texas state gov't's revenue by roughly 2025.  This is not sustainable.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

BridgeRunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2011, 09:26:30 PM »
Micro is not talking about stopping transfer payments. 

Nor did I call stopping payments Marxism.

I wasn't talking about stopping payments, I was talking about a philosophy that advocates the immediate destruction of the current culture in order to replace it with a preferred culture.

I made an analogy that referenced Marxism as the flip side of this philosophy of hyper-destructive "improvement" designed to destroy and rebuild, when it is applied to socialism rather than libertarianism. 

What Micro is proposing goes way beyond Great Depression proportions and it goes way beyond stopping entitlements.  None of us appear to be talking about the same thing.  =|

 

 

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2011, 09:40:06 PM »
I mean we. I mean libertarians and conservatives often fail to achieve their libertarian and conservative goals for lack of radicalism.
Lack of radicalism is not the problem.  All politics is incremental.  Our goals will not be achieved on a sit-com time scale.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Painful" budget cuts?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2011, 10:03:31 PM »
Lack of radicalism is not the problem.

Please elaborate why that is so.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner