Author Topic: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"  (Read 9785 times)

roo_ster

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"Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« on: August 05, 2013, 01:07:24 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

Quote
A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges.

The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to "recreate" the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial. If defendants don't know how an investigation began, they cannot know to ask to review potential sources of exculpatory evidence - information that could reveal entrapment, mistakes or biased witnesses.


Quote
The unit of the DEA that distributes the information is called the Special Operations Division, or SOD. Two dozen partner agencies comprise the unit, including the FBI, CIA, NSA, Internal Revenue Service and the Department of Homeland Security. It was created in 1994 to combat Latin American drug cartels and has grown from several dozen employees to several hundred.

Today, much of the SOD's work is classified, and officials asked that its precise location in Virginia not be revealed.
Huh, secret police and NSA data-hoovering against American citizens to enforce picayune criminal infractions.  It's a two-fer.

Quote
"Remember that the utilization of SOD cannot be revealed or discussed in any investigative function," a document presented to agents reads. The document specifically directs agents to omit the SOD's involvement from investigative reports, affidavits, discussions with prosecutors and courtroom testimony. Agents are instructed to then use "normal investigative techniques to recreate the information provided by SOD."

Quote
A former federal agent in the northeastern United States who received such tips from SOD described the process. "You'd be told only, ‘Be at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.' And so we'd alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it," the agent said.

After an arrest was made, agents then pretended that their investigation began with the traffic stop, not with the SOD tip, the former agent said. The training document reviewed by Reuters refers to this process as "parallel construction."
Sometimes my son & daughter pretend they are honorable police officers, too.

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"It's just like laundering money - you work it backwards to make it clean," said Finn Selander, a DEA agent from 1991 to 2008 and now a member of a group called Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, which advocates legalizing and regulating narcotics.

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"You can't game the system," said former federal prosecutor Henry E. Hockeimer Jr. "You can't create this subterfuge. These are drug crimes, not national security cases. If you don't draw the line here, where do you draw it?"
Watcha got to hide, Henry?

Quote
One current federal prosecutor learned how agents were using SOD tips after a drug agent misled him, the prosecutor told Reuters. In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.

"I was pissed," the prosecutor said. "Lying about where the information came from is a bad start if you're trying to comply with the law because it can lead to all kinds of problems with discovery and candor to the court." The prosecutor never filed charges in the case because he lost confidence in the investigation, he said.
Only for the little people, Mr. Prosecutor.

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Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE.
"Overseas" NSA intercepts.  Right.  And here I thought Utah was a state in the union.

Quote
"It was an amazing tool," said one recently retired federal agent. "Our big fear was that it wouldn't stay secret."
Where's the fun in that?  A secret police must be an open secret to get the desired response.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:38:50 PM by scout26 »
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roo_ster

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 01:17:53 PM »
But, but, but, these are good government minions.  They're only doing what they're told to do.  Not all of them are bad.  If you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. [insert vapid apologist excuse here.]
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HankB

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 01:56:17 PM »
Quote
The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to "recreate" the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial.
IANAL, but this sounds very much like suborning perjury to me . . . and it greatly undermines the credibility of all testimony offered by agents of that agency.
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Scout26

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 04:47:58 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-u-directs-agents-cover-program-used-investigate-091643729.html

Let's see, DEA uses illegally acquired evidence in trials, makes up where it came from to hide the illegal source.

I wonder how many druggies will get put out on the street because of this?

If I was a lawyer, I'd have $$$$$$$ signs flashing in my eyes.

Bastards.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:33:40 PM by scout26 »
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MechAg94

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 05:26:43 PM »
Reading that article really gives you a feel for just how many manhours we are putting into the War on Drugs in this country.  It is staggering.

What does it mean for a case if a tip came from an inadmissible or illegal source, but all the evidence was obtained separately through verifiable means?  I guess it is hard to answer because they say they are essentially fabricating a false story to back up the original tip. 

I guess an alternate scenario might be LEO's using helicopter mounted IR cameras to search for manijuana grow operations, then setting up separate investigations to collect independent evidence on the suspicious locations.  I guess to be the same, they would have to make up a story about why they started the investigation on a particular spot.
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Scout26

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 05:35:17 PM »
Sounds to me like they are getting the original info from the IRS, NSA, CIA, etc.  Information that was obtained illegally.

And Duplicate Topics Merged.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:38:36 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

griz

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 06:09:19 PM »
IANAL, but this sounds very much like suborning perjury to me . . . and it greatly undermines the credibility of all testimony offered by agents of that agency.

Not just suborning perjury, they are being TRAINED to do so.  A really bad start to sell your credibility.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 07:51:59 PM »
[censoredcensoredexpletivecensoreddeletedredactedexpletiveFARFEGNUGEN!]

You know, people either don't pay attention any more, or they just don't care.  Crap like this should be seeing people gathering up torches and pitchforks...

And nothing [censored] happens.
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Tallpine

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 07:53:27 PM »
[censoredcensoredexpletivecensoreddeletedredactedexpletiveFARFEGNUGEN!]

You know, people either don't pay attention any more, or they just don't care.  Crap like this should be seeing people gathering up torches and pitchforks...

And nothing [censored] happens.

I have a couple of pitchforks  =)
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 10:22:41 PM »
Crap like this has actually got me thinking of goin ex-pat. I really don't think it can be saved at this time and if I'm going to live in a banana republic I just as well go tropical.
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freakazoid

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 10:39:24 PM »
Just build a boat to sail the world and name it Guajira.  ;)
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MechAg94

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 06:50:31 AM »
Crap like this has actually got me thinking of goin ex-pat. I really don't think it can be saved at this time and if I'm going to live in a banana republic I just as well go tropical.
They will still be spying on you there. 
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roo_ster

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 07:58:54 AM »
They will still be spying on you there. 

That is his point.  At least there he'll have good weather.
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roo_ster

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brimic

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 08:09:29 AM »
The KGB and the Stasi could have only dreamed of such a system.
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T.O.M.

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 08:58:19 AM »

What does it mean for a case if a tip came from an inadmissible or illegal source, but all the evidence was obtained separately through verifiable means?  I guess it is hard to answer because they say they are essentially fabricating a false story to back up the original tip. 


I'm wondering the same thing.  The original information may have been illegally obtained, but it looks like local LEO's build a good case based on the original information.  State will argue that the original information was the equivalent of a tip, and did nothing more than tell them where to investigate.  Defense will argue the classic "fruit of a poisonous tree."  I'd be interested to see where SCOTUS comes down on this one.  The conservative group, led by Scalia, will have to settle an internal argument between backing the police against their usual instinct of protecting the individual against an overreaching government.  The lib side will have to settle an internal argument between civil liberties versus backing the current (Democrat) administration and singing the party line.

I had a case about 10 years ago where local drug task force was tipped off by the feds about a meth shipment coming into the area.  Even had the date they were to arrive, and the route they would be taking.  Stop was based on a good traffic stop, caught on dash camera, and the driver was using falsified driver's license, so the vehicle was impounded, and a couple of kilos of meth was found in the car...inside the body of the car.  When I learned of the tip, I met with the defense attorney to share the information.  Only problem for the defense was the defendant was essentially a glorified mule, and the three "gentlemen" who escorted the defendant's sister in and out of court were probably there to make sure that information about the source of the drugs/tip never saw the light of day.  An aside, the defendant didn't speak English, and the translator was caught altering her translation trying to help him and his case, because she'd fallen for him, and wanted him out so they could get together.  He was still convicted, and she lost her job and translation certification with the state.
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tokugawa

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 10:21:20 AM »
This is the tip of the iceberg IMO. Or maybe the camels nose. The data files being collected on people is ,as one guy put it, the most valuable thing on earth.  And it will be desired for every State purpose imaginable. By the time they are done, they are going to be using it for everything from issuing traffic tickets to destroying political opposition.

 We will need a new Miranda warning- "Everything you have ever said, written, or done can and will be used against you."

brimic

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 12:52:29 PM »
Quote
they are going to be using it for everything from issuing traffic tickets to destroying political opposition.
You can count on that.
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RevDisk

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 01:05:36 PM »
Any agent found to have fabricated evidence just nullified any conviction of his or her entire career. Even the greenest, most stupid public defender should be able to get any DEA conviction overturned.
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RevDisk

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 01:27:55 PM »
I'm wondering the same thing.  The original information may have been illegally obtained, but it looks like local LEO's build a good case based on the original information.  State will argue that the original information was the equivalent of a tip, and did nothing more than tell them where to investigate.  Defense will argue the classic "fruit of a poisonous tree."  I'd be interested to see where SCOTUS comes down on this one.  The conservative group, led by Scalia, will have to settle an internal argument between backing the police against their usual instinct of protecting the individual against an overreaching government.  The lib side will have to settle an internal argument between civil liberties versus backing the current (Democrat) administration and singing the party line.

Question should be easy for the defense.

"Have you ever knowingly created a false, 'alternative' or misleading trail of evidence, per DEA regulations?"
"Have you ever committed perjury, or omitted relevant information, during a trail?"
"Have you ever provided false information on 'tips', 'informants', or 'sources' "?
"Have you ever failed to provide evidence, to include covering up SOD involvement, to defense or prosecutors?"
"Have you provided knowledge to prosecutors and defense attorneys when evidence was illegally obtained, to include illegal warrantless wiretapping?"

Once an agent answers Yes to any, should be easy for a defense attorney to say "Agent Shmucettelli admitted to lying under oath, fabricating evidence, etc in the Scumbag A case. My client Scumbag B claims to be innocent as new fallen snow, and that Agent Shmucettelli is lying in his case as well."
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brimic

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 02:19:21 PM »
Quote
Any agent found to have fabricated evidence just nullified any conviction of his or her entire career. Even the greenest, most stupid public defender should be able to get any DEA conviction overturned.



Jose Guerena who?

Its all well and good unless the 'defendent' doesn't get his day in court.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 02:22:10 PM »
The dark, cynical part of me accepts the inevitability of a SCOTUS ruling in favor of the Stasi on this issue in the next year or two.   =|

The light-hearted, optimistic part of me got shivved by some cynical jerk. :P
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T.O.M.

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 03:42:07 PM »
Been thinking about this today, and it crossed my mind that the type of case that reaches SCOTUS will probably impact the way this issue, and following cases, get handled.  If it's a case where DEA got information, altered it per the policy, and then passed the altered information on, and that information was acted upon with no further/independent investigation, I can't see it surviving a review by SCOTUS, if it even makes it that far.  What I think will happen, for better or worse, is that it will be a case where the tainted information will be used as the basis for starting or targeting an investigation.  The further information will be something that, on its own, would be legally obtained and admissible.  Defense files to suppress the evidence.  That suppression will become the issue, and the argument will come down to (1) illegally obtained and/or falsified information from the DEA necessitates suppression of all evidence vs. (2) that information only served to point officers where to investigate, and all other evidence was obtained not due to the DEA information, but the investigation properly conducted by the officers, so it should be admissible.

And here's where I worry about the way the case gets presented.  If it comes down as I described, on the suppression issue, you may get 5 votes to say that illegally obtained or altered evidence used by law enforcement as only an indicator of who/where to investigate does not render all evidence subsequently and legally obtained inadmissible.  That would be a very bad precedent, and would likely encourage further misconduct at the start of investigations, and would likely create situations where cases are "reverse engineered" to find some legal evidence to bootstrap a case based entirely on the illegal/false evidence.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 07:22:28 PM »
And here's where I worry about the way the case gets presented.  If it comes down as I described, on the suppression issue, you may get 5 votes to say that illegally obtained or altered evidence used by law enforcement as only an indicator of who/where to investigate does not render all evidence subsequently and legally obtained inadmissible.  That would be a very bad precedent, and would likely encourage further misconduct at the start of investigations, and would likely create situations where cases are "reverse engineered" to find some legal evidence to bootstrap a case based entirely on the illegal/false evidence.

The impression I got from the article was that the various agencies involved weren't actually conducting "good" investigations, turning up "clean" (non-poisonous) evidence as part of following up on a "tip," but rather were conducting phony, paper investigations so as to create a false trail leading to the same evidence they already had as a result of the "tip." I would like to hope that such a scheme would not survive SCOTUS scrutiny.
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Sindawe

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 10:24:20 PM »
[censoredcensoredexpletivecensoreddeletedredactedexpletiveFARFEGNUGEN!]

You know, people either don't pay attention any more, or they just don't care.  Crap like this should be seeing people gathering up torches and pitchforks...

And nothing [censored] happens.

Of course not.  Most people know at this point that governments lie about EVERYTHING.  It in the nature of the beast.
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griz

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Re: "Let's just make up evidence !!!"
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 07:32:50 AM »
Like Chris, I can see a SCOTUS ruling as having the potential to be used very selectively.  For instance, in my home state of Virginia, sodomy, including oral sex, is a crime.  Of course they never devote the resources to an investigation because there is no voter demand for such nonsense.  But if the crime were to, say, be incidentally mentioned in a phone call, and the guilty party just happened to be a political opponent of the current administration, would it still be legal for them to use that info to create a case with a different back story?
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