Author Topic: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap  (Read 5794 times)

Perd Hapley

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"Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« on: June 15, 2015, 08:07:21 PM »
Obama used them as an example of a company that agreed to arbitrarily raise wages. They're now closing 25% of their stores, and laying off 250-some workers from corporate.

http://twitchy.com/2015/06/15/remember-what-obama-pelosi-the-dnc-said-about-gap-agreeing-to-raisethewage/
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Scout26

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 02:35:55 PM »
Just to clarify, the 250 HQ employees are in addition to all the employees of the 175 stores that are also losing their jobs..
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2015, 04:02:14 PM »
Pointing at one failing company in an initiative doesn't actually matter that much.

Consider that Walmart has decided to raise it's minimum wage paid not so much because it wants it's employees to enjoy a 'living wage', but because it was finding that the low pay caused it to have crap workers without any loyalty.

IE a $10/hour employee is, on average, more than 50% better than a $7/hour one.  They actually show up to work on time, piss the customers off less, get the shelves stocked quicker, don't steal as much, etc...

White Horseradish

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2015, 04:12:32 PM »
Companies get into financial trouble all the time. How do we know this is the result of wage increase and not some other bad management decision? Or, just having product not as many people want?
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2015, 04:16:21 PM »
Consider that Walmart has decided to raise it's minimum wage paid not so much because it wants it's employees to enjoy a 'living wage', but because it was finding that the low pay caused it to have crap workers without any loyalty.

Haven't really seen any improvement there.  Perhaps next they could try an actual dress/grooming code so potentially good workers aren't constantly wondering why they let themselves get stuck in the same job as the guy with bleached out dreadlocks and saggy pants.

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2015, 04:16:47 PM »
Pointing at one failing company in an initiative doesn't actually matter that much.

Consider that Walmart has decided to raise it's minimum wage paid not so much because it wants it's employees to enjoy a 'living wage', but because it was finding that the low pay caused it to have crap workers without any loyalty.

IE a $10/hour employee is, on average, more than 50% better than a $7/hour one.  They actually show up to work on time, piss the customers off less, get the shelves stocked quicker, don't steal as much, etc...
This is a primary motivator.

My company pays less now to start folks than it did five years ago, and that's not even counting inflation and increasing costs of living. Both at the stores and my work location.

The quality of employee is notable, as is the turn over, and the amount of time wasted training useless people who jump ship as soon as it clicks this is a job and not a hobby.
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brimic

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 04:27:53 PM »
This is an issue that everyone sees correlation (or not) through their own filter without enough data being present to draw an absolute conclusion.

 [popcorn]

That being said, I'm firmly in the camp where price and wage controls are an absolute scourge on the free market and generally only have negative consequences.
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 04:30:48 PM »
Haven't really seen any improvement there.  Perhaps next they could try an actual dress/grooming code so potentially good workers aren't constantly wondering why they let themselves get stuck in the same job as the guy with bleached out dreadlocks and saggy pants.

Didn't that just recently get shot down in court?

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 04:40:38 PM »
and the amount of time wasted training useless people who jump ship as soon as it clicks this is a job and not a hobby.
Always wondered how so many companies miss that expense; I've worked for several that had 2-3 weeks of training for new hires, which just in wages for the trainees alone was costing them $300+ per hour, not counting the trainers, training materials, etc. and yet they wouldn't spend a cent on retention.  At one that comes to mind, I was the last of my training class to ditch them, six months after my hire date.  Half were gone in the first month because they turned scheduling into such a mess; if they had a person who couldn't work days and a person who couldn't work nights, they'd put both on unworkable schedules, then tell them they'd have to use up their paid and unpaid leave if they couldn't work their assigned shift for a week or two until it got straightened out, rather than just go into the computer and switch the names in the schedule slots.

At another, a third of the class didn't make it all the way through the three weeks of training and another third left the first week out of class.  Turns out, a nearby tech school was sending new grads over there so they could be employed and getting paid while waiting on responses to resumes they'd sent to much better places.  A couple of them had started there to fill time waiting for the training class at another job they'd already accepted to start.



Didn't that just recently get shot down in court?
What got shot down was their narrowly targeted attempt to ban just a few things.

You can tell your employees "no t-shirts," or "no t-shirts with any sort of writing or logo on them," but you can't tell them "no t-shirts that say [insert politically charged thing here]."

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 04:53:47 PM »
Always wondered how so many companies miss that expense; I've worked for several that had 2-3 weeks of training for new hires, which just in wages for the trainees alone was costing them $300+ per hour, not counting the trainers, training materials, etc. and yet they wouldn't spend a cent on retention.

Most of them, if it's any indication.  It's part of why they don't want to spend money training people anymore. 

Quote
You can tell your employees "no t-shirts," or "no t-shirts with any sort of writing or logo on them," but you can't tell them "no t-shirts that say [insert politically charged thing here]."

Reading the rules, they were trying to allow logos like what are on present on some polo shirts - small and not very obtrusive, certainly not offensive to any sane person, and anybody offended is such a landmine that they'd be pissed about something.

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2015, 05:35:28 PM »
Quote
anybody offended is such a landmine that they'd be pissed about something.

The thing is with Wal-Mart is they could pay rediculously high wages to everybody, make it a workers paradise, etc and they would still be criticized by the Usual Moronic Suspects because Walmart is Evillllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to work for Wal-Mart. I was paid over a dollar more than minimum wage, entry level, and they treated me very fairly. They may not be the best people I have ever worked for but I have no real complaints other than some managers expecting too much.

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 06:02:50 PM »
The thing is with Wal-Mart is they could pay rediculously high wages to everybody, make it a workers paradise, etc and they would still be criticized by the Usual Moronic Suspects because Walmart is Evillllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would they have gotten that reputation in the first place if they did that?  But yeah, you have those who are haters mostly because they're successful.

Oh yeah, on the minimum wage thing:  Don't forget that workers cost more than their wages.  FICA scales with wages(to a point), but a lot of other expenses don't.


RoadKingLarry

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2015, 08:38:34 AM »
The thing is with Wal-Mart is they could pay rediculously high wages to everybody, make it a workers paradise, etc and they would still be criticized by the Usual Moronic Suspects because Walmart is Evillllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to work for Wal-Mart. I was paid over a dollar more than minimum wage, entry level, and they treated me very fairly. They may not be the best people I have ever worked for but I have no real complaints other than some managers expecting too much.



Wal-Mart can be a pretty decent place to work IF you aren't working the retail side. My son and his wife and my son-in-law all work at a local Wal-Mart distribution center. Starting wage for unskilled/untrained material handler is better than $17.00 an hour. If my extremely cushy, high pay union job with monster-mega Telco was to evaporate I'd haul my hairy butt over the distribution center and fill out an application most riki-tic.
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2015, 01:48:03 PM »
The thing is with Wal-Mart is they could pay rediculously high wages to everybody, make it a workers paradise, etc and they would still be criticized by the Usual Moronic Suspects because Walmart is Evillllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to work for Wal-Mart. I was paid over a dollar more than minimum wage, entry level, and they treated me very fairly. They may not be the best people I have ever worked for but I have no real complaints other than some managers expecting too much.




The other thing about walmart is it's rife with promotion potential.  Department managers, store managers, etc. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2015, 02:16:28 PM »
Yup I know quite a,few folks that have done well with them
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Re:
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2015, 10:08:15 PM »
Yup I know quite a,few folks that have done well with them

I almost posted something similar earlier along the same lines. I didn't because folks just love to hate on WalMart and I don't really love large corporations myself  =D

I think if you are hard working, dependable and average to bright you can work up the ladder at WalMart. What more do folks want?

Should they be another branch of the Federal DHHS paying folks for doing less or nothing?
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Re:
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2015, 10:39:13 PM »

Should they be another branch of the Federal DHHS paying folks for doing less or nothing?

Department of Homeland and Homeless (job) Security?

But yes, had Wal-mart started paying above average wages, they could have been the retail equivalent of Whole (paycheck) Foods.
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2015, 12:19:50 AM »
Walmart is raising wages, by the end of summer starting wages for the retail side will be at least $9/hr.  Current workers on the low end of the scale are supposed to be up to $10/hr by the end of the year.

Not a big jump dollar-wise, but knowing they're going from ~$7.50/hr to $10/hr is already making a difference in some folks attitudes towards their job.

Now if they'd just divvy up the money they're spending on advertizing (patting themselves on the back for giving the raises) among the employees....

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2015, 03:34:05 PM »
Pointing at one failing company in an initiative doesn't actually matter that much.

Consider that Walmart has decided to raise it's minimum wage paid not so much because it wants it's employees to enjoy a 'living wage', but because it was finding that the low pay caused it to have crap workers without any loyalty.

IE a $10/hour employee is, on average, more than 50% better than a $7/hour one.  They actually show up to work on time, piss the customers off less, get the shelves stocked quicker, don't steal as much, etc...

there is zero empirical evidence that raising the minimum wage improves the quality of the help.  None at all.  It is ludicrous to think that will happen.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2015, 04:12:44 PM »
And some of the older walmart employees are less than pleased with some of the restructuring


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2015, 05:35:47 PM »
there is zero empirical evidence that raising the minimum wage improves the quality of the help.  None at all.  It is ludicrous to think that will happen.

Which is of course why software engineers all get paid minimum wage  :facepalm:

If someone is not worth more than minimum wage, then they are not worth keeping around very long IMO.  I can see hiring at minimum wage for entry level positions, but then either give them a raise or fire them after 30 days.
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Ron

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2015, 09:21:04 PM »
We've lived so long with market distortions in pay scales that we don't really know what would happen with no minimum wage IMHO.

I'm not orthodox libertarian enough to believe that big business wouldn't start a race to the bottom in pay. I suspect there is way more distortion and fat at the top than there is at the bottom where it concerns pay.

While I maintain my opposition to minimum wages in theory my position is that it should be rolled back slowly to make sure it plays out like our free market theories postulate.  
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 12:04:53 AM by Ron »
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2015, 09:25:03 PM »
Which is of course why software engineers all get paid minimum wage  :facepalm:
Just because you typically have to pay skilled workers more to get them doesn't mean paying an unskilled person more will net better results than paying them what they are worth.

Tallpine

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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2015, 09:33:08 PM »
Just because you typically have to pay skilled workers more to get them doesn't mean paying an unskilled person more will net better results than paying them what they are worth.

No, but you typically get more skilled people that way.

I guess if you want totally unskilled people, then paying them the least amount possible is the way to go  :cool:

If somebody hasn't learned any skills after 30-60-90 days, then why are they still working for you ???
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Re: "Living wage" working really well for The Gap
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2015, 12:34:24 PM »
They have that issue at my inventory gig. It is almost impossible to get fired, and the payscale is based entirely on "productivity". We have 4 levels: every quarter, corporate checks the average numbers you've been hitting. If they match the next level up, you go up. If they aren't meeting the level you're at, you drop. Those that never advance get kept on so they have bodies (some sites have a minimum staffing requirement)

And some of those "kept as a body" types are just... wow. No call/no shows, unable to do basic counting (seriously: you're scanning tags on clothes. I could train a 5 year old on this). Show up drunk and/or high. And yet they're kept on
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