100 MPG cars...

[ilbob]

The public transportation systems in Detroit used to go to and from some of the surrounding suburbs.  One by one, those surrounding cities are cutting off funds for the system because fewer than 1% of the city's residents ride the bus.

For those that support mass transit, I would suggest they consider the following undeniable fact.

There is not a single mass transit system in the entire US that even breaks even. Few even break even on the operating side. If people who used mass transit had to pay the full cost of it themselves, it is likely it would be even less popular.

[Manedwolf]

The public transportation systems in Detroit used to go to and from some of the surrounding suburbs.  One by one, those surrounding cities are cutting off funds for the system because fewer than 1% of the city's residents ride the bus.

For those that support mass transit, I would suggest they consider the following undeniable fact.

There is not a single mass transit system in the entire US that even breaks even. Few even break even on the operating side. If people who used mass transit had to pay the full cost of it themselves, it is likely it would be even less popular.

Correct. Even the "trains that go everwhere" in Europe only exist due to taxes on all citizens that are tantamount to a mugging.

[roo_ster]

Aside from the added risk of mayhem from riding public transport, I would add that a person's time has a value.  And, public transport almost invariably means more time spent in transit.

Also, public transport is just about worthless to 99.99% of commuters.  They all seem to be a hub/spoke system, when the job growth is out in the 'burbs.   So folks travel radially around the inner-city hub from home to work.

  How much time in transit from these large cities with gridlock?  Does that not also add up?  So people will have to get to the station and then tehy will have to walk from the station to work or hop a bus.  I can't imagine walking more is going to do this country bad.  Is it? 

I for one actually support a tax increase on gas.  I would like to see it go up by at least $1.00 per gallon.  Simply so that people will start using otehr means of transportation.  Not to mention for research that could be used to end our dependence on oil.

There are very few locations in the USA where public transit can compete with personal transit, time-wise. 

I have used it in several of our larger cities (Dallas, Atlanta, DC, LA, TPA, Miami, Chicago), and found the above to be my observation.  Maybe there is an exception in one of the cities I have yet to visit, such as NYC.

All those folks in their autos are making the best choice available to them, for the most part.  If they were able to save big bucks or save big time, something more than 1/10 of 1%  of LA's commuters would use LA's pub transport.  Think about it: running the gauntlet of other commuters on congested streets is more appealing than using pub transit.  Just how worthless must pub transit be to come out sucking hind teat in that competition?

Frankly, your words are those of a social-engineering statist.  No respect for the time and decisions of others and ham-handed attempts to use excise taxes to force others to conform to your whim.

Why vote for Ron Paul when all your instincts are to bend others to your will?  I think Hillary or Obama is closer to your heart.

That's because people don't USE it. If they used it more often it would be able to turn a profit and maybe improve upon itself. Like I said, it'll never change until gas or whatever is SO expensive it's forced upon us. Then still, the only ones who will be able to drive their vehicles to town will be the rich folk. The rest of us peons will be swapping dread diseases on the bus... 

Even if gas gets really expensive, don't expect pub transport to go up dramatically or pub transport systems to make a profit.  The fact is, most pub transport does not go where folks want when they want to go there.

Well let me throw it at you a different way, you do believe that we should not be forced to pay for our health care.  However as a side effect of all the cars and their exhaust we are seeing numerous sicknesses such as asthma, lung cancer, and other respiratory problems which are found in areas with high smog such as Los Angeles.  Now those drivers are all in part responsible for someone getting sick, should tey be able to seek compensation? 

I call bullshiite.

A simple statistical exercise for folks:
1. Acquire the data detailing generally accepted macro levels of air pollution.
2. Do the same for the incidence of asthma

A little analysis will show you that as pollution levels in the USA have dropped over time, asthma cases have risen.

Negative correlation, IOW. 

Whatever it is that is causing the rise in asthma cases, it is not pollution.

LA is a wonderful case as an example of air pollution dropping while respiratory disease incidence has risen.

I find it amazing that folks parrot such easily-disprovable notions.

In fact, if you took economics, convenience, and national security out of the picture...

ilbob, I hope that was in jest, 'cause it was d@mn funny.

I can imagine a surgeon telling the family of a patient, "If you discount the inoperable lung cancers, heart disease, and his recent stroke, your uncle Bob is the picture of health..."

[Tecumseh]

Here are some articles on Air pollution and respiratory disorders:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/0302008.pdf

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4419

http://www.lungnet.com.au/fact_sheets/pollution-health.html

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/air/heart_lung-cardio_pulmon_e.html

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=315910

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/airpollution/about.htm

[Tecumseh]

Another interesting article...  http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4419

From: , Green Energy News, More from this Affiliate
Published February 8, 2008 09:36 AM
Mechanically Energized: Readily Commercialized
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/business/article/30847/print

Current conventionally powered vehicles, gasoline-electric hybrids, natural gas vehicles, biofueled vehicles as well as rechargeable battery electric, plug-in hybrid and fuel cell vehicles all have something in common: Theyre refueled by way of a tether? that links them to a stationary energy source. A hose is used to replenish a supply of gaseous or liquid fuels, or a cord is used to supply a flow of electrons.

Yet while thats how we refuel our vehicles, we refuel, reenergize, other devices quickly and safely by mechanical means. We remove and replace batteries in flashlights and power tools. We mechanically exchange gas filled cylinders for barbecue grilles and tools such as propane torches.

Mechanical reenergizing by batteries and gaseous cylinders use a totally different supply and distribution network that is reliable and ingrained into our economy: brick and mortar retail stores, Internet sales and package delivery services. We buy batteries at stores to bring home to put to work. We exchange spent gas cylinders at home improvement stores. While gas-filled tanks cant be ordered over the Internet and delivered to our front doors, batteries of all kinds certainly can.

So, if mechanical refueling as well as the distribution supply chain of retail sales and package delivery services are used to keep flashlights lit, power tools operating and grilles fired, why cant we use this fueling method and reliable distribution network to energize our cars? Business and industry already use mechanical fueling for industrial equipment such as fork lift trucks, why cant we mechanically refuel our cars and light trucks?

Well, some have been thinking about this. There are at least four, possibly more, plans out there to bring mechanical refueling to our personal vehicles.

--- Power Zinc Electric, of the City of Industry, California and Shanghai, China have a mechanical refueling model where the companys zinc-air fuel cells are removed, replaced and recycled. The fuel cells provide electricity to drive an electric vehicle. The electricity is generated in the electrochemical reaction of zinc when exposed to air in a electrolytic solution (not unlike that in a disposable flashlight. Spent fuel cells would be recycled at centralized or local plants.

(This zinc-air refueling/recycling scenario was proven in the early 2000s by Electric-Fuel, now Arotech, in a program which culminated in the development of a zinc-air powered transit bus. In the US federally-assisted program the bus achieved well over 100 miles range in testing. The project is now shelved.)

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--- Project Better Place, of California, has a business model for electric cars that would be similar to that used by mobile phone operators. Instead of cell towers to provide a wide area of mobile phone coverage, Project Better Place would establish a network of charging spots and battery remove and replace exchange stations. Already somewhat advanced in this plan, the organization, in partnership with French automaker Renault, has a memorandum of understanding with the state of Israel to begin building a network there.

In this plan the cost of a vehicles battery and its recharging and/or exchange would be paid for in a subscription plan like that used by the cell phone industry where the cost of cell phone usage also subsidizes the cost of the phone. With Project Better Place, battery usage by subscription would subsidize the cost of the battery.

Battery replacement would take only a few minutes and within a fully-built network driving range would be unlimited.

--- Hydrogen Power of Seattle, Washington is developing a technology where hydrogen is generated by the reaction of aluminum and water. Hydrogen generated would be used to power a fuel cell or even an internal combustion engine.

Since canisters or cartridges would contain little other than aluminum powder mix they could be sold in retail stores or on the Internet to be delivered to peoples front doors. Presumably the canisters could be recycled.

While the company doesnt specifically mention the use of its technology in passenger vehicles, the idea seems feasible.

--- Finally, Limnia of San Francisco, California is developing a system where hydrogen is stored in a solid state storage cassette. Cassettes would be removed and replaced in a vehicle they could be recharged with hydrogen with a home based unit or at refilling and/or exchange outlets. The cassettes would be safe to ship by package delivery services thus could be sold over the Internet. Hydrogen would be used to power a fuel cell in the vehicle.

The company says that their cassettes could also be used to power a home.

While the fine details of the solid state hydrogen storage are proprietary; the company has received a US patent on the technology: US. Patent No. 7279222. Further solid state hydrogen storage itself is a proven technology. Well respected Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) has been working with it for a number of years.

Even if solid state hydrogen storage were expensive, a model similar to the Project Better Place (see above) subscription model could be developed.

All of the above have commonalities too. All could be readily commercialized: the sales and distribution network, for the most part, already exists. Further, they all could be considered really disruptive to the status quo, fuel-by-tether model. (Unless of course the existing members of the current energy supply chain chose to get involved with this new way of fueling.)

 

Links:

Power Zinc Electric
http://www.powerzinc.com

Energy Conversion Devices
http://www.ovonic.com

Electric Fuel (Arotech) Electric Vehicle division
http://www.electric-fuel.com/ev/index.shtml

Hydrogen Power
http://www.hydrogenpowerinc.com

Project Better Place
http://www.projectbetterplace.com

Limnia
http://www.limnia.com

U.S. Patent No. 7279222
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7279222.html