unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?

[telewinz]

The older I get and the more I observe disadvantaged (poor?) Americans, the more I come to believe that the healthy, mentally fit poor Americans are nothing more than victims of their own loose grasp on reality.  Time after time they are advised on the "right" course of action yet they choose to go down the path of least resistance (the easy way).  I'll help a hardworking person thats met with "poor luck" but I think it's good money after bad helping those who have made seeking charity their life's work.  Youth is wasted on the young and welfare is wasted on (most) adults.

[The Rabbi]

Absolutely the case.  I have seen people time after time making terrible decisions.

[Guest]

Both are right, I think. Some people have it easier than others. Pretending they don't isn't helpful to anyone. Acknowledging that and trying to get past it can help all of us.

And I also believe thinking you can get ahead on other people's dime isn't getting you anywhere, either.

How's that for middle of the road, heh?

I grew up with lots of different kinds of people, most of them poor and a lot something other than white. It was never surprising to walk down the street and have someone yell out *let's not go there* or make other comments. I honestly do not believe the company I work for would hire a black person for any kind of job other than manual labor. I've had friends who have been told to leave businesses because of the color of their skin. Etc. These things bother me. They happen because I've seen them happen, numerous times.

I guess, as I've said before, I'm also a lot more understanding since I've been raising kids on one income/no child support, especially the time before I finished school. By doing this, I will always be behind the curve as far as where I should be in saving for retirement, etc. As I worked full time and went to school full time, while raising these guys, I'd be hard pressed to say I was lazy and back then would have kicked the ass of anyone else who dared to say so..if I wasn't too tired at the time. But the fact is, I'm never going to be wealthy, regardless of how hard I work. The best I can hope for is comfortable. And I'm good with that.

On the other hand, I've come to believe that the government is the solution to nothing. We all have a moral obligation, or I believe we do, to help each other. That means we decide who we help, but it also means we do it, even if its painful. It means we don't look away when we see things that are wrong, or we look away when people genuinely need help. It also means we make decisions about who we will not help. Those are hard, but they need to be made, and we need to make those decisions ourselves, not assign that job to a bureauocrat.  

One of the biggest problems I have with the welfare system is that it allows us to ignore our fellow human beings and their needs. We pay our taxes, we expect the government to do what we should be doing ourselves, and can wash our hands of the whole dirty mess.

[grampster]

happiness, fairness, rich.  There are other adjectives as well.   But I think one needs to find contentment.  Being content is drastically underated as a state of being.  But at the same time it embodies all of the human emotions regarding ones postition in life.

[French G.]

I certainly think it comes down to poor decision making, or more correctly no motivation to get out there and live.  In the western world that is. Other places you go with what you are born too and try to exist.

There is only one problem with recognizing that people are where they are because of their laziness. I don't think it relieves us of the duty to have empathy and understand. My SO is hard like that, no pity for anyone since she is self made. I try to realize that although I am smart, healthy, and have skills, there but for the grace of God go I. I don't know what ridiculous set of circumstances could put me on the street, asking other people for help. I'd like to think I wouldn't stay there long, but I look at myself and realize that I have more potential than I have ever realized, but let some of that pass me by for awhile out of apathy or depression. Sure, I kept a job, always the over achiever at work, but I knew I wasn't as good as I could be. Still not, getting better all the time. If I know this about me, I know there are plenty of people living off charity that have potential, they just can't or won't make themselves use it, or can't see it.  The condition of the human mind doesn't make it so easy as to think if you have your health and a little smarts you can do anything.

  That said, whatever drug habit, mommy/ daddy issues, brain, or financial problem that keeps someone from getting ahead is their fault, at some point you have to say "yeah sure my life is really screwed" and still go out and do something positive. I believe in second chances, I believe that without a permanent address or credit record normal life is impossible to achieve in this country, so I would help someone if I could. Employ them yes. Handouts no.

[telewinz]

My son who is finishing-up his last few months of ROTC said that academia is saying people should just be happy and if someone chooses not to work, we should support them.  I have long told my son that college is an "artificial environment" and as such the professors should not be taken too seriously.  On college campus, free thought and irresponsible thought are often divided by a very thin red line.

I grew-up in a single parent home,  well below the poverty level.  My mother was "encouraged" to apply for welfare benefits on numerous occasions but always refused and treated the "encouragement" as an insult.  At one time I was down to one pair of pants (baggy navy blue suit pants) and I didn't have decent clothes until I went to work and purchased them for myself  (half my earnings went to my mother).  We got food by trading .10 bread for "returned" milk cartons and food from an equally poor hospital worker.  We even traded for some surplus peanut butter (cut my hand real bad opening the can).  I refuse to be poor, its too terrible!
My brother is a very successful Fortune 500 company executive/lawyer, my sister an RN and I (black sheep?) am very content/happy being a supervisor with corrections.  None of us received government funds to obtain our educations or material wealth.  I'm not proud, just glad we all escaped!

[Guest]

I don't disagree. I get annoyed with the "anyone can be a millionaire" thing. Bull. My parents kicked me out when I was 13, and I've fed myself since then and never asked anyone for anything if I could avoid it. But when you're busy just trying to survive, odds are better than even that you're not going to be looking at the best interest rates for investments that you'll never be able to make in the first place. I see a lot of hooey on both sides. No one in this country starves and no deserves things handed to them but neither is it realistic to think that everyone in this country that is poor is a lazy bum.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Happiness...vs. Joy.

Happiness to me is fleeting.  It's what Madison Avenue tries to sell us; if we smoke the right cigarette, wear the right brand of underwear, and drink our Martini's with the right vermouth, we'll get the hot girl and be happy.

But we get that hot girl, and find out she's a flake, and hopelessly promiscuous as well.
We get the Porsche or the Escalade (bling bling), and it costs a boatload for the insurance...and then the water pump goes out 3 times in the first 8,000 miles...

But Joy is forever...joy is not an emotion, it is a permanent state of being.

Grampster mentioned contentment...a place I am a stranger to, unfortunately, but trying to learn/achieve.



...but to pull this back on subject, I do think the lack of ability to rightly assess-- conditions, cause & effect, actions and their consequences-- plays out in our success or failure in managing life's daily responsibilities.  You can make a few bad decisions, and still do okay.  But if you are consistently mis-evaluating how the world, the economy, the society, the job market works, you're gonna live a frustrating and unhappy existence.  

Unless, you can live on 3 or 4 illegitimate children's welfare, get your 4 inch nails done every week while you're talking on your cell phone, and driving your bling Lexus home to your place in the projects.  

Did momma ever tell any of us life was gonna be fair?

[Werewolf]

The caste system and natural selection are both going strong in the USA today.

The caste system exists whether folks want to believe it or not. Unlike more traditional caste systems where mobility is not an option the ability for one to move from one level to another - up or down - in the USA is real. But the process in general only allows a level or two mobility within a single generation by an individual. There are exceptions of course (sports and entertainment are a quick way up for those born with the talent or drive to take advantage of same) but in general the rule holds true.

Those who are born with the traits of ambition, intelligence, an intangible talent, physical ability etc will tend to move up - assuming they make correct decisions and the culture they were born into will permit it. And yes those traits have a high genetic content tempered for better or worse by the culture into which a person is born.

On the other hand those born without the necessary traits to thrive will inevitably sink down a layer or two.

Thus natural selection.

10,000 years ago physical ability counted most for survival. In today's more civilized and technological society social skills and intelligence are the traits that lead to survival and thriving. Tightly intertwined with social skills and intelligence is the ability to make wise and survival enhancing decisions.

[bermbuster]

My friend is a lawyer in New York City. Rather than practice law she teaches at one of those high schools where you finish your high school diploma while you are training for a job. She teaches law subjects to students who are going on to be court reporters or other such jobs.  Her classes are made up of students who come primarily from disadvantaged backgrounds.  One of the first things she teaches in the class is that you will NEVER come out ahead if you are receiving government subsidy to live your life.  We're not talking about scholarships here or student loans.  Many of us were lucky enough to get a scholarship and some of us used student loans.  I did both.  She says there is a look of suprise on each student's face when she tells them that.

She goes on to explain that being on welfare or any support other than that which you are providing yourself keeps you in a position of dependency from which you will not rise.  If you expect to do anything with your life you must be on your own with your own means of support.

She's pretty strict with her classes with regards to tardiness, class attendance, and deadlines.  Her students generally do not care for her at the beginning of the term but by the end she is their favorite teacher.  Many come back to tell classes that Ms. C is right and they better pay attention to her.

There is hope.  Diligence and perseverance are the keys.

[The Rabbi]

More to the topic:
My wife works for a bankruptcy trustee so she says a lot of failure.  Often the failure will come from some one-time event, or will seem to anyway.  But if you look further into it you decide that people were setting themselves up for this all along.
So the guy without car insurance who hits someone and loses a major judgement, or the businessman who hires his worthless son in law who runs the company into the ground--all of these have happened.
You can look at it superfcially and say "oh well, this person just had bad luck" and occasionally that is true.  But more often the "bad luck" was just chance running sideways into a bad decision, or series of decisions.

[grampster]

Contentment is the state of Joy!  Joy is not happiness.  Happiness is fleeting but joy is a state of being as Fig said.

Back on topic:

The great thing about America is that opportunity abounds.  We have a public school system that is free.  Now we may mock it, or make light of it, or otherwise disparage it.  But, any kid at anytime can choose to let it work for him.   Any child can get a great education in a public school if he chooses to use what is offered.  School is a selfish thing.  A tool.
 
Our problem is the institution of the Welfare State has become endemic.  Too many people manipulate that system from politicians at the top, through the demogogues, to the welfare kings and queens.  Somewhere along the way the children did not get the message that learning how to read, some numbers, some history, some civics and a few other minor skills could be massed to be used to exploit the opportunity that abounds.

Think about the future.  Mexico, Central America, South America.  These are three places that resemble America 150 years ago.  There are places even in America that can be properly exploited for our betterment.  They are all luscious fruit just waiting to be plucked.  And they will be by those kids who can be encouraged to use the present system we have as a launching pad into the future.  Kids need to be taught to demand that the schools work on their behalf.  It's like the lefty libs say...It's for the children.  But the lefties haven't even got a clue because "For the children" is code for money and power and an agenda that is contrary to their own slogan.

The proof of that is our present reality.

Somehow we need to take the demogoguery out of politics and the welfare state and put us back on track.

Just my brief .02 cents.

[telewinz]

Happiness is temporary at best, when it's permanent I've noticed that person has severe mental illness or its drug induced.  I teach my kids to strive for contentment, its a reasonable goal.

[Guest]

I'm not so sure. Happiness is great. So is contentment, depending on the definition.

If it's learning to be happy with where you are, whereever you are, that's good.

If its being happy with what you are because that means you don't have to go any further, not so good. I don't think I'd be content with contentment.

Can either one be learned? I don't know. I'm not sure they can.

[Moondoggie]

Werewolf's description is as good as anything I heard from any college professor.  +1 !

The problem, as I see it, is that our society has artifically modified the harsh realities of life.  The do-gooders may have had the best of intentions, but they failed to accurately predict the macro results.   I can understand how they missed it, because I don't see how an otherwise capable person can bring themselves to debasement by existing longterm on the dole as a way of life.

On the opposite end of the bookshelf from Barbara, I worked three jobs for years to make sure that my child support was always paid in full and on time.

I watched a Discovery Channel program on rats awhile back.  One segment showed a family of "Ratcatchers" in India.   These folks lived totally outdoors, migrating from place to place making a living catching rats.  Some they ate, some they sold to crocidile farmers.  They also sometimes got paid a pitifully small amount for their services.  This family had a bunch of kids.  Zero health/dental care.  Zero education.  They worked their heinies off continuously.  None of them had the opportunity or ability to become rocket scientists or brain surgeons, but they got by with no help from anybody.  If they can survive and thrive, anybody should be able to.

We ought to care for those who CAN'T care from themselves, not for those who chose the welfare class lifestyle.

[Guest]

But if they just worked a little harder, they could be billionaires instead of rat catchers!

[Moondoggie]

One other thing I noticed about the ratcatcher family...they smiled and laughed alot.

[Art Eatman]

From what I've seen, most of the non-sub-culture "unfortunate" are there from an accumulation of bad decisions.

Some start as kids, cutting class, not doing homework, making poor grades.  No learned marketable skills.  Parents contribut to this, of course.  Regardless, minimum wage "just don't cut it".

Some decide that hedonism, or instant gratification, is more important than saving for the future.  Doing without early on in order to have money later on isn't a priority.  You see them at Starbuck's or in BMWs--while it lasts.

And some are just too sorry to live.  Wake up every morning and it's a brand new world.  Anything untoward happens, and they look around like a dyin' calf in a hailstorm, wondering what's going on and who's gonna save'em.

Economic class has nothing to do with it.  Race has nothing to do with it.  Even IQ is rarely the problem.  A permanent state of immaturity is highly contributory.

Hey, Bill Gates was a Hippie kid in a bunch who messed with computers.  A guy named Bill Clements dropped out of school in the 8th grade and went to work on an oil-drilling rig.  He schemed and studied and got into the "awl bidness", made millions and became Texas' first Republican governor since Reconstruction.  A guy named Gene Thompson from Fort Worth is another 8th grade dropout who "...never had shoes 'til I started school" and now owns rent houses, apartment complexes and motels.

My grandfather held down two full-time jobs for several years, and also wrote math books at home at night.  Bought land with the savings.  Austin grew.  You can make more money raising condos than cows.  But it was forty years of living between buying and selling...

Most folks are in too big a hurry to get off work and go home to the TV to ever make any money.

Art

[Guest]

That's what I told him. Those rat catchers are just slackers! They could be oil barrons if they'd just get off their asses and work a little harder.

[grampster]

Along with what Art said, I think the Lord made the day 24 hours long for a reason.
It gives a person 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work and 8 hours of play.  People need play!  It is what we do best.  We need sleep to regenerate and it's pleasurable as well.  Work is what we do to be able to do the other two well.  Those rare few among us that combine the 8 hours of play with the 8 hours of work (because their work IS play!) set the stage for the rest of us to tag along on their coatails.

In an earlier age (and in some places today) life was short and brutal.  It is not that way in the civilized world.  One needs to grasp the opportunity that living in this day and age brings to smorgasborg of our reality.

[brimic]

I think a lot of people confuse happiness and contentment with social status or appearance of social status.

There is no reason why any physically and mentally fit person in America couldn't make it on their own. By 'making it' I don't mean living in a $400,000 house, wearing expensive clothes, driving a $50,000 car, or being a paid member of all of the best social clubs. By 'making it' I mean being able to survive without assistance, being able to keep the kids fed, and keeping a roof over their heads. I grew up in a poor rural setting and seem to remember a lot more happiness then than I do now.

[telewinz]

I agree 100% brimic but in today's society it seems that if its hard, then I must be doing it the wrong way. There MUST be a shortcut or a way I can cheat.   Life is still a struggle, once a person forgets that or deludes himself, he's on the road to a lost cause...self respect and personal freedom.

[Art Eatman]

From 1962 into 1979 I had an 8 to 5 job.  On the side, I did the car stuff.  I got into doing coin shows and gun shows on occasional weekends.  I learned to do all my own home maintenacnce.  In 1967 I moved back to the old family ranch to help take care of my mother and grandfather.  Had a wife and kid to take care of, as well.  I added cows to the equation of "What Art does."

Little by little I got to where my overhead was covered by income "while I slept".  So I dropped out and made my hobbies my business.  Wander around town and drink coffee with folks and search for coin and gun collections to buy.  Or old sports cars to repair and resell later on.

I never got rich, but I got independently not-broke.  That was good enough.

My wrinkles come from grinnin', so I must have been doing something right.

, Art

[grampster]

Art just defined "contentment".

[Waitone]

Bad decisions are a huge contributing factor.  Moral standards frame the entire ethic that says one can choose to work or simply not work.  Not much different from theft in my view.  Take the last view and move to a different society and that particular option may disappear.

Another factor which has to be considered is just pure dumb luck or divine intervention or ugly karma.  You pick the term.  There come times in people's lives where bad things happen and their ain't no avoiding it or making it go away.  I get tickled at the 30 something Master of the Universe pontificating on world domination.  You know the type; he knows it all, has his life all planned with at least 2 kids, a collection of wifes, planned career, early retirement, stock options, etc.  Then the goober steps off the curb at the wrong time or place and is paralyzed.  Or the Master goes to the doc for a check up and he is now the latest subject of cancer therapy trials.  Happenstance, random dumb luck, whatever plays a part in everyone's life.  Character and moral standards determine how one deals with it.  

Over the years I've had the privilege of meeting and knowing numbers of wealthy people who have made it on their own.  I talk with them about their reason for success and have collected a number of factors that seem to be consistent across the board.  Factors collect so far include a passion for what they do, living arrangements which permit an extended period of involuntary poverty, and THE BREAK.  The Break takes many forms and really can not be predicted but it appears to be a situation which arises which can be exploited.  It is transitory, time sensitive, and non-repetitive.  The Break allows things to happen which otherwise would have never occured under normal circumstances.  Those who are successful, in my experience, have the capital (time, wealth, and contacts) available when The Break appears.  

An example or two.  One business acquaintance I had was a packaging distributor.  He worked for a big name company but wanted to start his own.  Couldn't make any headway until he met a guy who just happened to have a rundown property in a rough section of town.  The property owner made an offer.  Since he wanted the property occupied to keep it from being destroyed, he offered to give my acquaintance building space for a warehouse and office space just for being there.  Yep, nothing like free rent to make your dreams happen.  He took advantage of the offer and is now worth multiple millions.  Second story, a friend wanted to play in real estate.  Found a foreclosed property with a really short action fuse.  Couldn't afford the 30 days for the loan.  Had a personal friend who just happened to own his own bank.  One phone call and he had $700,000 in loans.  Put $10,000 of his own into fixing the place up and put the house up for sale at $1.2 million.

I provide the examples because it is clear two things had to take place.  First preparation for something had to be a given.  Second, an opportunity had to walk by.  Eliminate either one and chances for "success" drop to zero.

At an early age my dad taught me I had to work hard and smart.  Sometime working smart is completely out of your control.