Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RoadKingLarry on April 11, 2014, 07:54:54 AM
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Rancher in Nevada has a long running dispute with the BLM over grazing rights and the desert tortoise.
BLM getting all jack bootyish.
Locals getting annoyed about it.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular)
http://www.infowars.com/feds-assault-cancer-victim-pregnant-woman-in-clash-with-bundy-supporters/ (http://www.infowars.com/feds-assault-cancer-victim-pregnant-woman-in-clash-with-bundy-supporters/)
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Seriously, infowars???
Do some research before thinking this guy's a good guy.
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Seriously, infowars???
Do some research before thinking this guy's a good guy.
Not the only *expletive deleted*ing source I posted.
Nor did I take any stand on they guy being good or bad.
I just said it could get interesting.
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I've been keeping up with it from what Fox News has been reporting. It looks like there's a bigger backstory, and so far I'm not really impressed with the rancher's reasoning.
On the other hand, the fed.gov is going WAY overboard on this, and I agree that the freakin' tac teams surrounding the place will lead to a bad end unless someone in (greater) authority steps in. Also, I saw in one story that the gov had spent nearly $1 million to round up, so far, around 100 cattle. They coulda got some rancher's kid on an ATV to do that for 50 bucks a cow.
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There definitely is the larger issue of why the fed.gov should own all this land in the first place... but barring that, the rancher's argument seems to be a variant of of the people on this board, and others who have to deal with hikers/campers/bums/ATV'ers/hunters trespassing on their land because of the "It's just empty woods! And I did it before!"-argument.
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Rancher in Nevada has a long running dispute with the BLM over grazing rights and the desert tortoise.
BLM getting all jack bootyish.
Locals getting annoyed about it.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=29387272&fm=most_popular)
This could get Interesting
Ayup. This particular rancher's backstory notwithstanding, lotsa people in flyover country have had it with the BLM. Heavy handed tactics, arbitrary decisions, questionable regulations, agents with a God complex, etc.. Unfortunately I can see this easily getting completely out of hand. Only this time it won't be a single family home/religious compound, it will be the Fed.gov against an entire community of very pissed-off farmers, ranchers, and landowners. If that happens it will jump past interesting right to "oh crap...".
Brad
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I've been keeping up with it from what Fox News has been reporting. It looks like there's a bigger backstory, and so far I'm not really impressed with the rancher's reasoning.
On the other hand, the fed.gov is going WAY overboard on this, and I agree that the freakin' tac teams surrounding the place will lead to a bad end unless someone in (greater) authority steps in. Also, I saw in one story that the gov had spent nearly $1 million to round up, so far, around 100 cattle. They coulda got some rancher's kid on an ATV to do that for 50 bucks a cow.
There seems to be a controversy about his paying grazing fees. Apparently there's local fees & then there's federal fees. There's disagreement about what he has or has not paid.
Also, there is a backstory about an endangered tortoise that precipitated all this .... except even the government is apparently killing them off as there seems to be an over-abundance of them, now. Go figure.
And yet another aspect; this guy is the last rancher in the area, the govt. has "run off" the others, part of (alledgedly) the Agenda 21 program. One doesn't need Alex Jones & Infowars for that, THAT is a very real program that threatens our property rights across America.
I wish good fortune and a true aim for all the responding militias; may you keep your powder dry.
This may get interesting. Hopefully sane heads will prevail.
I had higher hopes of that happening under Clinton's regime than Obama's, however.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ6H9vlEDA
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There were allegations, I say again unsubstantiated rumor, in a discussion on FNC, that BLM had begun destroying confiscated cattle. Anyone have more light to shed?
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The dudes no saint, and seems a might nutty. But that said, I have no faith of a reasonable and proportionate response. Hopefully it doesn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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I've been keeping up with it from what Fox News has been reporting. It looks like there's a bigger backstory, and so far I'm not really impressed with the rancher's reasoning.
On the other hand, the fed.gov is going WAY overboard on this, and I agree that the freakin' tac teams surrounding the place will lead to a bad end unless someone in (greater) authority steps in. Also, I saw in one story that the gov had spent nearly $1 million to round up, so far, around 100 cattle. They coulda got some rancher's kid on an ATV to do that for 50 bucks a cow.
A million dollars to round up ~$100K worth of cattle ;/
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A million dollars to round up ~$100K worth of cattle ;/
Well, when you send in helos, top of the line NVGs and FLIR, and every other high tech toy, and put them in the hands of $100/hr gov contractors, I reckon the costs add up quick.
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There were allegations, I say again unsubstantiated rumor, in a discussion on FNC, that BLM had begun destroying confiscated cattle. Anyone have more light to shed?
No, but if you can make it credible enough to get PETA involved (and by involved, I mean doing something that gets Fed guns pointed at them) I'll watch the videos with a smile.
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Two groups of less than savory characters butting heads over tortoises, one of the groups being the fed.gov with lots of tacticool toys. Yep, this won't end well. Pretty much a given that somebody's going to end up at ambient temperature.
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Two groups of less than savory characters butting heads over tortoises, one of the groups being the fed.gov with lots of tacticool toys. Yep, this won't end well. Pretty much a given that somebody's going to end up at ambient temperature.
Hence my idea of sending PETA protestors to absorb the first volley.
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Two groups of less than savory characters butting heads over tortoises, one of the groups being the fed.gov with lots of tacticool toys. Yep, this won't end well. Pretty much a given that somebody's going to end up at or temporarily well above ambient temperature.
FTFY.
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And those bastards in Lexington and Concord. How dare they defy the king and not turn in those cannon and powder. ;) :angel:
Yeah, he may not be a white knight, in a white hat, on a white horse, but neither is the .gov, and given how he seems to have a lot of support from neighbors and others that have to deal with the BLM. It might get damn sporty.
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Seems like the cell towers out there are having an issue....
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And those bastards in Lexington and Concord. How dare they defy the king and not turn in those cannon and powder. ;) :angel:
Yeah, he may not be a white knight, in a white hat, on a white horse, but neither is the .gov, and given how he seems to have a lot of support from neighbors and others that have to deal with the BLM. It might get damn sporty.
Public held land to generate income goes all the way back to the Land Ordinance of 1785. Its not a new thing.
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Ayup. This particular rancher's backstory notwithstanding, lotsa people in flyover country have had it with the BLM. Heavy handed tactics, arbitrary decisions, questionable regulations, agents with a God complex, etc.. Unfortunately I can see this easily getting completely out of hand. Only this time it won't be a single family home/religious compound, it will be the Fed.gov against an entire community of very pissed-off farmers, ranchers, and landowners. If that happens it will jump past interesting right to "oh crap...".
Brad
On a lot of BLM the ranchers have been getting off cheap for the AUM costs compared to what it really costs.
Here is a good argument on grazing vs recreation on public lands in regards to land usage.
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013/08/15/blm-public-lands-grazing-accounts-for-only-0-41-of-nations-livestock-receipts/
Here is a buy the number on costs from a few years ago
http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/fs_buy_the_numbers.htm
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WAIT....I thought you said the BUNNY Ranch.
Bundy Ranch? Cows?
*expletive deleted*ck that noise. What lousy reason to start a fight...
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Don't mess with the tortoises. Unless you want to build a gigantic solar power plant, then you can "relocate" them. http://ivanpahsolar.com/ivanpahs-first-translocated-tortoise
Don't mess with Bald Eagles. Unless you want to build a wind farm, then it's OK to kill them for the next 30 years. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/6/obama-issues-permits-wind-farms-kill-more-eagles/
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So, on one hand you have a guy who allegedly owes a million bucks of back fees from using public land for personal profit and on the other, you have thugs in uniform. Uhm, pray for a meteorite? Seriously, the feds could have just gotten a court order, and put a lien on the guy's property. OTOH, dude could have not leached off public property without paying for it.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/
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So, on one hand you have a guy who allegedly owes a million bucks of back fees from using public land for personal profit and on the other, you have thugs in uniform. Uhm, pray for a meteorite? Seriously, the feds could have just gotten a court order, and put a lien on the guy's property. OTOH, dude could have not leached off public property without paying for it.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/
Were you reading my mind?
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And now James Yeager is heading down there. I'm sure he will be a moderating influence.
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And now James Yeager is heading down there. I'm sure he will be a moderating influence.
Yep, this party just needs more stoopid. Buck Angel to the rescue!!!!!
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WAIT....I thought you said the BUNNY Ranch.
Bundy Ranch? Cows?
*expletive deleted* that noise. What lousy reason to start a fight...
Dude Steaks. T-Bones, Porterhouses, Ribeyes, New York Stirps. Enough reason for me.
Mayhaps the fed.gov should get out of the land business ?
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Dude Steaks. T-Bones, Porterhouses, Ribeyes, New York Stirps. Enough reason for me.
Mayhaps the fed.gov should get out of the land business ?
Enjoy your sagebrush fed beef.
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And now James Yeager is heading down there. I'm sure he will be a moderating influence.
Hopefully no one gets in between him and a ditch.
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Now we really need that meteorite. =|
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Enjoy your sagebrush fed beef.
Mmmm. Sagebrush beef. Auuuugh.
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James Yeager? Who ordered the retard injection? This situation does not need a retard injection at this time.
Unless he's on the fed's side, in which case I'm totally behind this idea.
:rofl: =D
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Mmmm. Sagebrush beef. Auuuugh.
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A fan of the tough beef? I like mine marbled, I want to have to take Lipitor after eating a steak.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.volusion.com%2Fezqcg.xyqrx%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2FBFSPPH-2.jpg%3F1383893951&hash=0a331d165b2556b5918f741d35db7eb7655e91fe)
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Ok steak is check.
Whose bringing the popcorn?
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Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Come on it is the man keeping this rancher down.
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Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Come on it is the man keeping this rancher down.
Sharpton is too busy scoring a few kilos of rock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=imnAK0pV-7w
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Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Come on it is the man keeping this rancher down.
Probably the fact that there isn't any money to be made means there aren't any Heroes of the People rushing in (other than Buck Yeager, of course)
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Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Come on it is the man keeping this rancher down.
The rancher is white.
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The rancher is white.
Maybe on his his mothers mothers mothers side he is one of the brothers.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/)
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/)
Bundy, a descendant of Mormons who settled in Bunkerville more than 140 years ago, claims an inherent right to graze the area and casts the conflict as a states' rights issue. At a news conference Friday on his ranch, he said the federal government is wrong to deny his cattle access to the grazing land they've always used. He said he barely recognized the land during an airplane flyover earlier in the day.
Is this part of Nevada with the Polygamists?
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/11/militia-groups-come-to-aid-nevada-rancher-in-battle-with-feds/)
Moar idiots! Yes! This'll help out a lot
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Moar idiots! Yes! This'll help out a lot
But it's a GREEN LIGHT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-vZ48WSJrA
;/
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cringe.
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I keep thinking the rancher's name is Al Bundy. It would make more sense that way.
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I think the other theory is they trying to clear this guy off the land to lease it out to some drilling companies.
Apparently gas or oil has been turning up in test wells that were drilled in the area.
So there could be another twist to this.
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I just read BLM have drones flying around now. Sound like BLM are Jamming cell phone now!
I have a friend that was traveling to Santa Fe, NM and she witnessed white unmarked military vehicles and several drones in the air. She attempted to record and her phone was inoperable. She called me immediately as soon as her phone was working again.
https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy (https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy)
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The blm.gov is saying the cows have been there illegally since 1998 because of the turtle thing.
I don't see how the rancher can be in arrears for lease payments from 1998 to the present since from the blm.gov point of view there was no longer a lease. After 16 years he should be entitled to adverse possession :P
And the .gov has already spent way way more than any possible value of the back lease payments. :facepalm:
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I have a friend that was traveling to Santa Fe, NM and she witnessed white unmarked military vehicles and several drones in the air. She attempted to record and her phone was inoperable. She called me immediately as soon as her phone was working again.[/url]
Sniff Sniff...smells like...bullshit...
Just like some of the Bundy supporters lying about helicopter gunships and posting stock photos of AH-64s to FB...
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Statist. Don't you know what an unmarked military vehicle looks like? And they are moving those 2800 mraps in too zomg
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Statist. Don't you know what an unmarked military vehicle looks like? And they are moving those 2800 mraps in too zomg
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And I heard they have the FEMA railcars standing by, too.
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Sniff Sniff...smells like...bullshit...
Just like some of the Bundy supporters lying about helicopter gunships and posting stock photos of AH-64s to FB...
Paranoia and ignorance is strong in many people, unfortunately they also breed and vote.
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You guys are retarded
Everyone knows the mraps and rail cars won't move in until AFTER the area is saturated with the chemtrails and the fault lines weakened by HAARP
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You guys are retarded
Everyone knows the mraps and rail cars won't move in until AFTER the area is saturated with the chemtrails and the fault lines weakened by HAARP
*expletive deleted*, forgot that. Been working overtime on making sure MH370 stays disappeared on the secret base of Diego Garcia so I forget the little stuff. That *expletive deleted* with the keistered iPhone really threw us a curveball.
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Farmers are rolling in, take them 2 months from the Midwest to get there.
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And I heard they have the FEMA railcars standing by, too.
I heard they have cattle cars. Cattle cars!
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I heard they have cattle cars. Cattle cars!
You are correct. They do.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.actuallymummy.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2FFar-Side-Cows.png&hash=f8c937e46c13471c99406e57cb97dc12574cc3a8)
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I mean, cause if the government is taking his cattle, there are probably cattle cars involved. =)
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On a more serious note, via Drudge, the reason this has suddenly come to a head is that Sen Reid's son is working with the Chinese to install a large solar array out there in the desert. Worth about $5 billion.
The turtles are a red herring, and the grazing fees are utter BS.
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I have not had much chance to really investigate claims/counter claims - but if you live in rural NV for a few yrs - & you're a reasonably intelligent liberty minded person - you get to hating the Bureau Of Land Marxist .... ( except for the fire fighters )....
Most of the armed BLM agents I've met have been pro big gov Dbags -
So, I really do not know much about what is going on, it's really far away from where I am now ( Reno ) but
A: Reid is in serious danger of losing the next election, this could be a distraction of some kind ( even if the solar angle is not really true )
B: Reid could be looking to damage Gov Sandoval ( see A: )
C: BLM are a bunch of dbaggers....
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The turtles are a red herring, and the grazing fees are utter BS.
Kind of like the spotted owl of the PNW. At the time demand for timber was declining at the Northern Spotted Owl was the scapegoat of the timber barons. Made them look good because the government shut them down instead of them closing mills for economic reasons.
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I have not had much chance to really investigate claims/counter claims - but if you live in rural NV for a few yrs - & you're a reasonably intelligent liberty minded person - you get to hating the Bureau Of Land Marxist .... ( except for the fire fighters )....
Yeah, it's really nice for us grumpy old volunteers when the cavalry starts rolling in. Young strong gung-ho guys get paid OT to babysit a fire on the top of some mountain while we go home to our beds and our jobs. =)
Since there is scattered BLM (and state, DNRC) land scattered around, almost every fire is a "threat" to public land ;)
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You always have to wonder why suddenly there's such a compelling reason to kick them off the land.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
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You always have to wonder why suddenly there's such a compelling reason to kick them off the land.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
I read that the BLM got rid of all the other ranchers in that area back in 1993 (Clinton/Babbit :mad: ).
So he really doesn't owe any back lease payments since their hasn't been a lease in effect since then.
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Calm before the storm? I seriously doubt the BLM and the rest of .gov is just giving up on this one.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610)
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Calm before the storm? I seriously doubt the BLM and the rest of .gov is just giving up on this one.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610)
As Scout noted, the Harry Reid/Chinese connection is getting MSM traction, the turtles the BLM claims it's protecting have grown so numerous the BLM is culling them.. ;/
Getting people digging into how the BLM is really a political tool and not simply "land management" could wind up being a much bigger loss for the BLM and those they really serve (hint - not "us") than any win from kicking the rancher and his cattle off.
I also haven't seen any serious de-bunking any of the rancher's claims his family has been grazing cattle in the area since before there ever was a BLM. That would run afoul of the broader base of Americans sense of fairness.
At any rate, the guy's gone from being a cranky freeloading crackpot, to someone who might have a legitimate gripe, and has been resisting political and business manipulation to get the land in just the past 24 hours of the news cycle.
Still not worth starting Civil War II over.. ;/
However, even if you assume the worst characterizations of Bundy are true for the sake of argument, the fact so many are rallying around him shows the utter contempt so many people hold for the BLM and the fed.gov.
Can't say I blame them.
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AJ, do you stand by the characterization you made in your first post? Seems a real stretch, to me.
If the feds wait until Sunday, and go arrest whoever they can pin some charges on, that will be much more convenient for them.
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So, I really do not know much about what is going on, it's really far away from where I am now ( Reno ) but
A: Reid is in serious danger of losing the next election, this could be a distraction of some kind ( even if the solar angle is not really true )
Distraction from ... what?
B: Reid could be looking to damage Gov Sandoval ( see A: )
Not likely to happen. The Governor seems to be siding with the rancher and protesting the federal usurpation of state's rights. Doesn't seem likely to hurt to Governor at all.
C: BLM are a bunch of dbaggers....
Who long ago forgot what their mandate is.
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AJ, do you stand by the characterization you made in your first post? Seems a real stretch, to me.
If the feds wait until Sunday, and go arrest whoever they can pin some charges on, that will be much more convenient for them.
It's one of those messy situations. A mix of what's gut-level right, what's "legal" and and what actually is in play.
My position is that even if I assume the worst about Bundy, that he's a scofflaw who's been coasting on the back of the American taxpayer with his herd, I do hope he prevails... or more aptly, I really want to see the feds fail, back down, etc. because that's a better outcome for us and our freedom, and a blow to federal power, if only symbolic and temporary. We've got much larger structural issues with the relationship between private property the .gov, and the awful decisions like Kelo vs. City of New London.
I suspect there's a fair amount of hyperbole on both sides of this and everyone putting their own spin on it.
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Who long ago forgot what their mandate is.
No, I think they still are that way:
To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of America’s public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.
from http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/About_BLM.html
Also BLM is bound by law (Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976) to manage the property for multiple uses. Not just for grazing.
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Distraction from ... what?
Not likely to happen. The Governor seems to be siding with the rancher and protesting the federal usurpation of state's rights. Doesn't seem likely to hurt to Governor at all.
Who long ago forgot what their mandate is.
Reid could be hoping that Sandoval standing with the rural conservatives could be like standing with Koresh, or that it could become just a huge story and NV voters get distracted by it and forget why they hate Reid ....
Chatter I've heard lately is Sandoval might run for Reids seat, a real serious threat.
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BLM is bound by law (Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976) to manage the property for multiple uses. Not just for grazing.
They are trying to eliminate the grazing. How is that multiple use?
Folks always talk about federal "subsidizing" ranchers and loggers. How about subsidizing manufacturers of camping gear, hiking shoes, mountain bikes, etc etc etc ??? ;/
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devilishly clever of blm to start all this in 93 . however do those clever dogs see so far into the future. or could the rancher is a loon school be right?
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devilishly clever of blm to start all this in 93 . however do those clever dogs see so far into the future. or could the rancher is a loon school be right?
There is half-truths, manipulation, and some outright lying on the Bundy side, either from him or his supporters. Everybody hates it when the leftists lie, manipulate, obfusticate, and bullshit...but apparently no one stops to check when their own side does it. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it, and that goes way beyond the Bundy situation. I used to believe and spout that crap when I was younger but dammit it's old these days.
There's plenty of the truth about this situation to discuss without resorting to bullshit and bringing in circus freaks for entertainment.
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There is half-truths, manipulation, and some outright lying on the Bundy side, either from him or his supporters. Everybody hates it when the leftists lie, manipulate, obfusticate, and bullshit...but apparently no one stops to check when their own side does it. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it, and that goes way beyond the Bundy situation. I used to believe and spout that crap when I was younger but dammit it's old these days.
There's plenty of the truth about this situation to discuss without resorting to bullshit and bringing in circus freaks for entertainment.
I believe some of the circus is about selling web hits survival gear and the paraphernalia of the right fringe. some of its pretty funny though the way so many swallow the lines whole is scary
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There is half-truths, manipulation, and some outright lying on the Bundy side, either from him or his supporters. Everybody hates it when the leftists lie, manipulate, obfusticate, and bullshit...but apparently no one stops to check when their own side does it. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it, and that goes way beyond the Bundy situation. I used to believe and spout that crap when I was younger but dammit it's old these days.
There's plenty of the truth about this situation to discuss without resorting to bullshit and bringing in circus freaks for entertainment.
Like many of these situations, it's pretty rare to get into being squeeky clean. But as far a dbags in this situation, he comes of looney but far less dbaggy than some.
There's Bundys side, the Governments side, and somewhere in the middle what actually is going on out there.
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Like many of these situations, it's pretty rare to get into being squeeky clean. But as far a dbags in this situation, he comes of looney but far less dbaggy than some.
There's Bundys side, the Governments side, and somewhere in the middle what actually is going on out there.
very true sadly ones cause tends to be tainted by the types of folk that flock to it. rightly or wrongly one is perceived as being similar to them. the minuteman movement is a good example where the loons though a minority colored the public perception. its tough to self police a movement and the moreso when you need warm bodies in the early days
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They are trying to eliminate the grazing. How is that multiple use?
Folks always talk about federal "subsidizing" ranchers and loggers. How about subsidizing manufacturers of camping gear, hiking shoes, mountain bikes, etc etc etc ??? ;/
Not all grazing, just reducing areas where grazing pressure either destroys the land or threatens an endangered/threatened species. Much of the BLM land in many states really isn't even suited for jackrabbits.
If the land was productive for grazing/agriculture it would have been snatched up during the homestead years.
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Have doubts he's a looney toon?
Try this. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/12/war-has-just-begun-bundy-supporters-mobilize-aim-t/
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Have doubts he's a looney toon?
Try this. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/12/war-has-just-begun-bundy-supporters-mobilize-aim-t/
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Where, exactly, is the evidence that he's a "looney toon"?
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Not all grazing, just reducing areas where grazing pressure either destroys the land or threatens an endangered/threatened species. Much of the BLM land in many states really isn't even suited for jackrabbits.
If the land was productive for grazing/agriculture it would have been snatched up during the homestead years.
"God made this country for the buffalo. It does pretty good for cows." -GW McLintock :lol:
The land sorta was snatched up. Ranchers filed homestead claims on the few water sources which pretty much controlled the surrounding countryside. But at only 160 acres or so, no one could make a living without water.
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Where, exactly, is the evidence that he's a "looney toon"?
Guvner of Nevada is looney too I guess .... ;/
Honestly, I was sort of with-holding judgement, which was why I wasn't down there. But if this had gone to a massacre like I believe the blm.gov intended, look out for OKC 2...n :O
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Where, exactly, is the evidence that he's a "looney toon"?
its in a special code hidden so you might not see it. look in the area where he demands all the blm guys be disarmed and the guns brought to him. someones trying to channel porter rockwell way out there
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its in a special code hidden so you might not see it. look in the area where he demands all the blm guys be disarmed and the guns brought to him. someones trying to channel porter rockwell way out there
Be realistic, please. It ain't crazy to start the negotiations someplace so far on your side of the fence that the other side will obviously never go there.
Now if he expects it to actually happen, that would be crazy.
If you've been paying attention to the politics of this country over the past several decades, such an incrementalist strategy has worked pretty well for the left-wing. A lot of their looney-tunes ideas are now fact.
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Nice to see consistency. c&sd putting on the ol' jackboots again. ;/ ;/
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Nice to see consistency. c&sd putting on the ol' jackboots again. ;/ ;/
No he is content for others to wear them.
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Nice to see consistency. c&sd putting on the ol' jackboots again. ;/ ;/
Hey sagebrush can be a might prickly =D
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No he is content for others to wear them.
Somebody has to keep 'em licked.
=D [tinfoil]
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I did the math, and the rancher is correct: the most that he could owe in back lease fees is a little over $300K.
And the lease has been in dispute which is why he stopped paying. If I had had a clearer view of this sooner, I might have even gone down there for a camping trip :P
The guy has the NV guvner, a bunch of representatives from NV and AZ, plus the local country sheriff on his side. He must be a real nutcase then ;/
And now the BLM.gov has surrendered :cool: From the pictures it looks like the feds were outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1, and were basically begging to pick up their toys and leave alive. Next time something like this comes up, there will be even more armed civilians showing up. =)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb398%2FFLHRI-OK%2Fattacknevada.jpg&hash=c9eabac5647e37b2b0df005b86f4bb8b277b1b02) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/FLHRI-OK/media/attacknevada.jpg.html)
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How could the feds be outnumbered? That is in direct conflict with the ranchers and his supporters claims. they mauintain there are 100's of armed feds. so 4 to 1 means 800 to a 1000 "militia". the only images i see show maybe 75 in the crowd including men women children and media
How did you calculate the graze fees?
even if your 300 k base number is close 20 years? legal fees and penalties? could top a mill easy. i hope his kids aren't planning on ranching there. dad likely sacrificed that for em
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How could the feds be outnumbered? That is in direct conflict with the ranchers and his supporters claims. they mauintain there are 100's of armed feds. so 4 to 1 means 800 to a 1000 "militia". the only images i see show maybe 75 in the crowd including men women children and media
Just basing on numbers in any given picture. Heck, the "millitia" even had guys up on the bridge with rifles. Plus the BLM saying "just let us take our stuff and leave." I guess the feds didn't really want to fight a bunch of guys that would really truly shoot back and weren't all cornered so they could burn them out. An air strike wouldn't be too popular politically. I-15 was full of rubberneckers.
How did you calculate the graze fees?
even if your 300 k base number is close 20 years? legal fees and penalties? could top a mill easy. i hope his kids aren't planning on ranching there. dad likely sacrificed that for em
1.35*1000*12*20
Hell, the entire rest of the neighborhood is long gone. They couldn't live off the few cows that they would let them graze anymore.
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And the lease has been in dispute which is why he stopped paying.
I can't find much on the dispute, except for several reports that he has lost every time he has gone to court. As for the county and the governor supporting him, the support seems to be for the situation not ending up in bloodshed. I haven't seen anything that indicates that they support his position, nor have I found anything that they supported him in the past. Have they?
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Given the public relations butt-kicking BLM just received in Nevada, it's going to be interesting to see what happens in Texas. They're trying to redraw property boundaries in a way that will effectively seize about 90k acres of ranch and farmland properties along the Red River (Texas/Oklahoma border).
http://www.rfdtv.com/story/25206377/oklahoma-texas-border-dispute-has-ranchers-worried
These shenanigans are happening in Vernon, about 30 miles from my home town of Crowell. Only in this case it's not a lone potential-crackpot who's already had several days in court and lost, it's a bunch of everyday upstanding community members with lots of friends and a very, very, very supportive local population of several tens of thousands.
Brad
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doubled down on stupid just seized some of his cows back at gun point and there is video. i really feel bad for folks who are about to flush a great deal down the toilet
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Wait. Who seized cows? "back" implies some of the protestors took em back from the gov...
Link?
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Wait. Who seized cows? "back" implies some of the protestors took em back from the gov...
Link?
its on face book and info wars link. if they think an armed confrontation is not gonna draw a real response hes even crazier than i thought. and thats a bunch. and this time it was the local sheriffs deputies they jacked up. you know the sheriff that helped him get a deal? yea hes got a porter rockwell fantasy.
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OK, dude, I actually went to Infowars, and I see nothing there about a confrontation with the Sherrif's department. No idea which FB page you're talking about.
All I see are the stories about militia types demanding the cattle from the Feds, and the Feds agreeing to it. The militia folk are said to have been armed, but there's no reports of the Feds being "at gunpoint."
So what are you talking about?
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took a sec well 30
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-releases-bundy-cattle-after-protesters-block-southbound-i-15
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took a sec well 30
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-releases-bundy-cattle-after-protesters-block-southbound-i-15
Which is pretty consistent with what I posted earlier :facepalm:
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Which is pretty consistent with what I posted earlier :facepalm:
er no
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Any bets on a tragic accidental "natural gas explosion" at the Bundy compound or Mr. Bundy suddenly discovering the hard way that he had a previously undiagnosed heart condition?
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my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef. they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar. actions have consequences
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my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef. they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar. actions have consequences
I concur. They won't let it slide. Can't.
But it'll be to pick them off one by one on petty BS or anything they can get to stick. Smartest thing would be to get the cattle and run.
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So Bundy quit paying money to the feds who he said were mismanaging the land. It's well established that the money paid by ranchers and Bundy prior to 1993 was used to buy out the other ranchers. So the ranchers were bought out with their own money that was to be used to improve the area. After 1993 Bundy continued to graze his cattle and make improvements with his own money while the BLM created a strawman with the turtles that they so mismanaged they had to kill many of them because there became too many of them. I believe a number of rules were changed by the BLM and perhaps even the EPA to squeeze Bundy. I tend to agree with this crusty old bastard's opinion about the bureaucrats.
One question I have is and has been what is the problem? This is desert scrub fit only to graze cattle at a cost to the rancher. He resents the .fedgov wanting his money that they have shown to use in the normal way the government uses our money; badly. The government really has no good reason for making an issue out of this and certainly could have made some allowances for a cantankerous family of hard scrabble ranchers that have been doing this in that family for 140 years.
I say it stinks and I frankly don't give a rats behind what a judge says and any reasoning behind pushing the situation. Over 3 million dollars down the crap hole, behavior by the BLM that confirms a lot of opinion, and the government once again opens the door to the incomprehensible nastiness that comes out of Washington DC.
We are surrounded by evidence of the federal government out of control and some of you are waffling about this incident which is au priori more government stupid on display. Watching the BLM boys cutting and running and not even having the courage to walk away like a man, but rather back up with weapons at port arms, in the presence of unarmed Americans flying our flag, was disgraceful and more evidence of how far our leadership has allowed our nation to embarass itself.
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One question I have is and has been what is the problem? This is desert scrub fit only to graze cattle at a cost to the rancher.
You ever see an area of "desert scrub" that's been overgrazed? It ain't pretty, and it leads to native plants being replaced by invading species such as cheat grass, which burns far more readily than native species, which in turn worsens fire seasons. It also causes heavy erosion, which can take the form of very large and blinding dust storms.
Nevada has been seriously overgrazed for the past 100 or so years, due to a combination of the "tragedy of the commons", poor management by the federal government, and a "don't give a *expletive deleted*it" attitude by many of the ranchers (which I guess ties back into the "tragedy of the commons"). There aren't any good guys in this situation.
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What's the problem? Clearly the problem is because he is a loon. And all these loon militia folks. And this loon James Yeager. And this loon Porter Rockwell. And all these loon local people who are supporting him.
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my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef. they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar. actions have consequences
I wouldn't be the first to point out that a link you posted doesn't support what you intended it to.
took a sec well 30
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-releases-bundy-cattle-after-protesters-block-southbound-i-15
The link just refers to the showdown between the protestors/ranchers/militia, and the BLM, though it does say that the Sheriff's Deputies were also there, and mentions "rifles pointing toward each side." Which may or may not support the idea that they took the cattle "at gunpoint."
You're claiming that the BLM backed down, and then Bundy led an armed posse in to threaten the Sheriff's men and take the cattle. The link you posted states that the BLM only agreed to go away after a group of people (seemingly armed, but not led by Bundy) demanded the return of the cattle. In fact, it says the feds/cops were planning to start the shooting match, and not the other way around.
But all that aside; yes I agree (I already predicted) that Bundy, et al, will probably be arrested and tried for something. Probably several somethings. I figured they would have done it today, to take advantage of the weekend lull in the news cycle.
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I'd expect them to break him and his family first then lock him up if he hasn't killed himself. Look for asset seizures first. His family will end up broke
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After reading all that i am struck by an oddity and a similarity to other incidents. That being that many folk insist that the target of govt action be pure as the driven snow and to have hewed to marquis of queensbjry rules while the govt has fought dirty for decades. That if the target is in any way imperfect it somehow illegitimates his actions and legitimates govt action against him.
A rancher in bfe nevada is zero threat to me and mine. Otoh govt are bureaucritters paid with my tax dollars to be threats. In my estimation the burden of right and straight conduct lies on govt. That skeevy dealings on their part make their actions illegitimate.
To hell with wishing for an asteroid. That is lazy nonjudgementalism. If the rancher does his worst he starves via mismanagement. If the govt does its worst it is emboldened and more likely to do the same again.
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And this loon Porter Rockwell.
Porter Rockwell is dead.
Chris
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After reading all that i am struck by an oddity and a similarity to other incidents. That being that many folk insist that the target of govt action be pure as the driven snow and to have hewed to marquis of queensbjry rules while the govt has fought dirty for decades. That if the target is in any way imperfect it somehow illegitimates his actions and legitimates govt action against him.
A rancher in bfe nevada is zero threat to me and mine. Otoh govt are bureaucritters paid with my tax dollars to be threats. In my estimation the burden of right and straight conduct lies on govt. That skeevy dealings on their part make their actions illegitimate.
To hell with wishing for an asteroid. That is lazy nonjudgementalism. If the rancher does his worst he starves via mismanagement. If the govt does its worst it is emboldened and more likely to do the same again.
Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.
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Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.
and those who indulge in self delusion so they can roleplay with them can ride to heck on their horse right next to them
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You two need to get a room.
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Porter Rockwell is dead.
Chris
SEE!!! THE GOVERNMENT HAS STARTED THEIR RETRIBUTION ALREADY!!!11!!1!
(Do I really need a sarc tag for this?)
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After reading these two articles I would say this is nothing more than the death throes of a way of life the government has purposed to stamp out. What is legally correct and what is morally correct, as is so often the case when dealing with Fed.gov are two different things.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/standoff-at-bundy-ranch-ends-with-photo-of-the-year-so-far.php
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch
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You ever see an area of "desert scrub" that's been overgrazed? ....
I'm trying to figure out why you think multiple generations of the same ranch family would overgraze the land? It's in their own best interest to manage it for the long term.
I dunno much about the BLM, but the USFS is mostly morons and power-hungry jack-holes. They don't give a damn about the resource, only about their career advancement and strutting around telling people what to do and what not to do.
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Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.
Then you will never be able to support anyone for anything. I guess those vile propagandist Colonials using deceit to further insurrection against the Crown really piss you off eh? Screw it, the lefties have been stabbing America in the back for years, let's keep swinging that pillow at them and see if it works any better this time.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1925198_694146073976212_7104274029692159324_n.jpg)
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Even the Mudders held a riot on account of Jayne Cobb.
It don't make no sense.
=D
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I'm trying to figure out why you think multiple generations of the same ranch family would overgraze the land? It's in their own best interest to manage it for the long term.
I dunno much about the BLM, but the USFS is mostly morons and power-hungry jack-holes. They don't give a damn about the resource, only about their career advancement and strutting around telling people what to do and what not to do.
I know you still live in the 1960-1970's when the USFS was still operating as Sustainable Yield (Timber) but they have been changed by legislation. If you want to get pissed off, blame people, blame the automobile that allowed people to recreate in the forests. Laws were changed/created because people wanted recreation not timber harvest. Don't blame the USFS.
Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.
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I know you still live in the 1960-1970's when the USFS was still operating as Sustainable Yield (Timber) but they have been changed by legislation. If you want to get pissed off, blame people, blame the automobile that allowed people to recreate in the forests. Laws were changed/created because people wanted recreation not timber harvest. Don't blame the USFS.
I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s. And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.
Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.
Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management ;/
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I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s. And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.
Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management ;/
They had their hands tied by law.
I'm knowledgeable about USFS grazing, and his reply was exactly what I have read and seen about grazing on those lands.
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I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s. And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.
Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management ;/
If charby is referring to my post on the first page, GOM, it has little to do with the alchematic dark arts of range management. All I know about range management is keep erosion under control, don't screw up the soil, be sure to use plenty of blood for invoking Great Old Ones and don't screw up water management. There's probably just the one oh one level course, which is exactly not what I was talking about in the previous post.
Dude was not being forced to graze cattle off his personal property. No one held a gun to his head, FORCING him to use public land for personal profit while not paying for it. Dude allegedly wracked up a million bucks in missing fees. On the other hand, you have allegedly a bunch of government land thugs that would better serve our country by working as door greeters at Walmart. Best is to allegedly pray for a meteorite, not cheer government thugs or folks that demand their welfare, er grazing rights.
Is the government wrong? From a statistics point of view, probably. In this matter? Definitely. They should have just went to court, got a judgment and put a lien on the guy's stuff. Proper way for the grazing entitement guy to do is get a bunch of his buddies together and maybe lobby for a better solution to the problem. Instead of you know, using public land for his own personal gain while shafting the taxpayers.
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They went to court. Dude said meh. Grabbing beef is next step in process. Guy was wrong even if he was white
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They had their hands tied by law.
WTF ???
I'm knowledgeable about USFS grazing, and his reply was exactly what I have read and seen about grazing on those lands.
Funny, I lived for about 20 years right smack in the middle of a bunch of FS grazing. It was sure as hell not over grazed. The "pool" (several brands working together) hired a couple of cowboys to keep moving the cattle around between various sub-ranges separated by drift fences.
Dude was not being forced to graze cattle off his personal property.
Well, sure - he could have gone out of business. Do you have any idea that ranches are bought/sold all over the west, with so many deeded plus usually a much larger number of leased acres? That's just the way it works and always has.
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Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.
Simple solution; shut down BLM, turn over land actually being used for something helpful to NPS, and sell the rest, with lease holders having first option.
Texas has very little "public" land, and hasn't really suffered for it.
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So, just so we're clear...
If i'm in danger of "going out of business," then it's OK for me to use property that doesn't belong to me without paying?
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So, just so we're clear...
If i'm in danger of "going out of business," then it's OK for me to use property that doesn't belong to me without paying?
and failure to recognize that makes you a statist
f/s graze is not blm graze. the forest service seems to have different standards
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Simple solution; shut down BLM, turn over land actually being used for something helpful to NPS, and sell the rest, with lease holders having first option.
Texas has very little "public" land, and hasn't really suffered for it.
THIS. In spades.
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WTF ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legislation_governing_the_United_States_Forest_Service
Read the above link.
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Simple solution; shut down BLM, turn over land actually being used for something helpful to NPS, and sell the rest, with lease holders having first option.
Texas has very little "public" land, and hasn't really suffered for it.
Never happen. NPS will lock it up, remember NPS mission is preserve the land.
Also much of the Fed owned land is for water resources. Private ownership can prevent the water from flowing down stream.
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Texas has very little "public" land, and hasn't really suffered for it.
Perhaps it is a problem. Over pumping of the Ogallala Aquifer is going to end a lot of cotton farming in Texas panhandle in the next decade or two.
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Riparian rights are a sticky issue that the libertarians tend to have a difficult time dealing with.
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Riparian rights are a sticky issue that the libertarians tend to have a difficult time dealing with.
Very true
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So, just so we're clear...
If i'm in danger of "going out of business," then it's OK for me to use property that doesn't belong to me without paying?
These "leases" are more like water rights in nature. They belong to the deeded land. As previously noted, the "not paying" part dates back to when the BLM tried to take away 90% of his lease. Then they cancelled the lease altogether so they probably wouldn't have accepted the payment anyway.
Funny, I haven't yet heard of any ranchers complaining about Bundy not paying his way - just misconceptions and bigotry from city folk. But probably they are all too busy to be online.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legislation_governing_the_United_States_Forest_Service
Read the above link.
Which one of those requires them to lie, make up arbitrary rules that don't have anything to do with current conditions, take bribes of dope from certain operators, screw young rangerettes out in the woods, beat their wives, and set fires to burn out private cabins ???
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Funny, I haven't yet heard of any ranchers complaining about Bundy not paying his way - just misconceptions and bigotry from city folk. But probably they are all too busy to be online.
Mostly because, if I understand correctly, he and the other ranchers never had a problem with what they paid for grazing rights. The problem began when the BLM arbitrarily (*cough* Desert Tortoise *cough*) raised the fees by several orders of magnitude, making them so economically unfeasible that they became, in effect, a de facto ban on grazing. That is what he had a problem with.
The other ranchers bailed. He hung around and told the BLM to stick it. Fast forward to today.
Brad
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Mostly because, if I understand correctly, he and the other ranchers never had a problem with what they paid for grazing rights. The problem began when the BLM arbitrarily (*cough* Desert Tortoise *cough*) raised the fees by several orders of magnitude, making them so economically unfeasible that they became, in effect, a de facto ban on grazing. That is what he had a problem with.
The other ranchers bailed. He hung around and told the BLM to stick it. Fast forward to today.
Brad
Yeah, what I've been trying to say ;) Not unlike the water deal a few years ago (in Oregon?) where they suddenly discovered some rare little fish. I can't quite wrap my head around "property rights" of the fed.gov. Did we get a constitutional amendment authorizing all this? Seems like there is something about forts and gov offices and that's about all =|
I'm sure Bundy is a jack-hole. He would have to be to last this long :lol:
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Riparian rights are a sticky issue that the libertarians tend to have a difficult time dealing with.
And children. Hard to keep a civilization going without a proper regard for water & children.
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I can't quite wrap my head around "property rights" of the fed.gov. Did we get a constitutional amendment authorizing all this? Seems like there is something about forts and gov offices and that's about all =|
There you go citing the Constitution. Better watch yourself mister, your betters will have none of that.
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Which one of those requires them to lie, make up arbitrary rules that don't have anything to do with current conditions, take bribes of dope from certain operators, screw young rangerettes out in the woods, beat their wives, and set fires to burn out private cabins ???
Well you didn't say what they did, but you do kvetch most frequently about timber not being cut.
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Well you didn't say what they did, but you do kvetch most frequently about timber not being cut.
Actually, I said most of that in the post of mine you quoted and then you said it was all required by law.
Screw it, frenchy =(
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Actually, I said most of that in the post of mine you quoted and then you said it was all required by law.
Screw it, frenchy =(
I just got to remember that you don't like anyone unless they think exactly like you.
You can find controlling, wife beating, et al type people in any industry.
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Which one of those requires them to lie, make up arbitrary rules that don't have anything to do with current conditions, take bribes of dope from certain operators, screw young rangerettes out in the woods, beat their wives, and set fires to burn out private cabins ???
Did you report this activity to the higher ups?
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when I was living off grid a couple hours north of Reno, the BLM arbitrarily revoked grazing that had been done for hundred or so yrs.
No reason was given, the Granite mountain range is harsh rangeland, no one camps there, no endangered species ( except for rural people, they're more and more endangered every year ) - so 6 months later into the growing season we had a huge fire, 700, 000 acres I think, severely burned animals seen fleeing the area - the cows used to eat all the brush and minimize the fire danger.
Thanks BLM, good job.
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http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/story/Sen-Reid-on-Cattle-Battle-Its-not-over/nT5weKnqFkezV14I5GhESg.cspx
Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it.
Yeah, only Washington bureaucrats get to do that.
And does that mean that non-citizens are allowed to break the law? 'Cause that would explain some things.
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when I was living off grid a couple hours north of Reno, the BLM arbitrarily revoked grazing that had been done for hundred or so yrs.
No reason was given, the Granite mountain range is harsh rangeland, no one camps there, no endangered species ( except for rural people, they're more and more endangered every year ) - so 6 months later into the growing season we had a huge fire, 700, 000 acres I think, severely burned animals seen fleeing the area - the cows used to eat all the brush and minimize the fire danger.
Thanks BLM, good job.
You tslking about the Yarnell fire?
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You tslking about the Yarnell fire?
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it was called the smoke creek fire but i can't find any links-it was in the middle of nowhere, but only one ranch suffered damage - no reason I can fathom other than stupidity to disallow the cows walking around eating fuel.
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So, just so we're clear...
If i'm in danger of "going out of business," then it's OK for me to use property that doesn't belong to me without paying?
if you're a resident of NV or the USA - it can be argued it does belong to you- really its just a desert wasteland with some turtles rabbits and cows -
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it was called the smoke creek fire but i can't find any links-it was in the middle of nowhere, but only one ranch suffered damage - no reason I can fathom other than stupidity to disallow the cows walking around eating fuel.
no reason not to pay the fee. You know how much it is?
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if you're a resident of NV or the USA - it can be argued it does belong to you- really its just a desert wasteland with some turtles rabbits and cows -
Thats right its public land. Not to be confused with "his ranch"
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it was called the smoke creek fire but i can't find any links-it was in the middle of nowhere, but only one ranch suffered damage - no reason I can fathom other than stupidity to disallow the cows walking around eating fuel.
this might help
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2008/1214/
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Mostly because, if I understand correctly, he and the other ranchers never had a problem with what they paid for grazing rights. The problem began when the BLM arbitrarily (*cough* Desert Tortoise *cough*) raised the fees by several orders of magnitude, making them so economically unfeasible that they became, in effect, a de facto ban on grazing. That is what he had a problem with.
The other ranchers bailed. He hung around and told the BLM to stick it. Fast forward to today.
Brad
That makes a bit more sense. That is a much more reasonable argument than Bundy put forth in the news articles, from both left and right sources. Could have just been the media sucking as usual, but it wasn't the argument he was banging on about in his quotes.
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That makes a bit more sense. That is a much more reasonable argument than Bundy put forth in the news articles, from both left and right sources. Could have just been the media sucking as usual, but it wasn't the argument he was banging on about in his quotes.
Endangered Species Act of 1973 plays a significant role in how public lands are managed. The National Environmental Policy Act requires government agencies to integrate environmental values into their decision making processes by considering the environmental impacts of their proposed actions and reasonable alternatives to those actions. The Forest and Rangeland Renewable Resources Planning Act of 1974 requires BLM and USFS to create a management plan every 10 years.
Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 only allows for grazing permits not to be longer than 10 years.
These are the laws that why many agencies are constantly changing their management plans and why land usage isn't consistent from generation to generation. Also any management plan or decision is open to a public comment period normally 90 days in length, if someone has an issue then they can come and comment. With a little bit of Google Fu on can find plenty of examples where the public voice did change land use.
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https://www.google.com/#q=blm+kills+desert+tortoises (https://www.google.com/#q=blm+kills+desert+tortoises)
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https://www.google.com/#q=blm+kills+desert+tortoises (https://www.google.com/#q=blm+kills+desert+tortoises)
Looks like the euthanized turtles are at a conservation center, not ones out in the wild.
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it wasn't the argument he was banging on about in his quotes.
Looks like the euthanized turtles at a conservation center, not ones out in the wild.
you noticed that too?
that stuff came from the same placer the apache pics came from and the 2800 mraps
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it wasn't the argument he was banging on about in his quotes.
Looks like the euthanized turtles at a conservation center, not ones out in the wild.
you noticed that too?
that stuff came from the same placer the apache pics came from and the 2800 mraps
The "pundits and bloggers" are grasping for straws with a lot of disinformation.
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The "pundits and bloggers" are grasping for straws with a lot of disinformation.
you are kinder than i am
i think they pluck it from their nether regions and throw it out confident the faithful will swallow anything. they are not wrong
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I'm sure Bundy is a jack-hole. He would have to be to last this long
Didn't Captain Reynolds have a theory about the sort of men that have statues?
Also any management plan or decision is open to a public comment period normally 90 days in length, if someone has an issue then they can come and comment. With a little bit of Google Fu on can find plenty of examples where the public voice did change land use.
And with 30-50 hours in a day, one could actually do all the searching necessary to keep up with the calls for public comment on issues relevant to them. There have been plenty of times those got the absolute minimum allowable publicity to the point where even reasonably vigilant groups never found out until it was too late.
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Looks like the euthanized turtles are at a conservation center, not ones out in the wild.
Does that make a difference?
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Does that make a difference?
yes
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Didn't Captain Reynolds have a theory about the sort of men that have statues?
And with 30-50 hours in a day, one could actually do all the searching necessary to keep up with the calls for public comment on issues relevant to them. There have been plenty of times those got the absolute minimum allowable publicity to the point where even reasonably vigilant groups never found out until it was too late.
All you have to do is go to the home page of the parcel/forest/grassland that interests you most and its right there.
Here is Bridger-Teton National Forest. Right on the home page, second paragraph.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/btnf
The reason I used that page is that I am in the process of reviewing their management plan.
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Does that make a difference?
They ran out of funding and it would be unethical to release domesticated turtles back into the wild, they were being fed by humans.
I wish there was some zoos or other conservation centers that could have taken them.
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They ran out of funding and it would be unethical to release domesticated turtles back into the wild, they were being fed by humans.
al jones is NOT gonna like you
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al jones is NOT gonna like you
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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yes
No, not really.
The Endangered Species Act is a real piece of work.
A city could be overrun with, say, gray squirrels. But if a geographically distinct habitat is short its supposedly proper proportion of squirrels, the jack-booted bureaucritters can swoop in and declare that particular population an "endangered species." Some city park, separated from other squirrel-habitat by roadways, can be the critical, crucial habitat of an endangered species! The Grant's Park Squirrel (AKA, the dirt-common "gray squirrel") can then be protected with the ESA and further development of Grant Park halted due to the critical, crucial and oh-so-important-to-the-ecology Grant's Park Squirrel. One more victory for the ESA and right-thinking people, for sure.
The distinction can be something as mundane as a river or roadway. Lots of critters on this side, but not enough (according to the jackboots) on the other. We have a new endangered species!
What I have described is what occurred with the Spotted Owl. There were puh-lenty of Spotted Owls, but relatively few north of one river. That was the pretext used to kill off industry and destroy livelihoods of icky white people in the PNW. (Were they "native" Americans, there would have at least been a decent fight, like the "indians vs whales" incident.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Spotted_Owl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_occidentalis
Strix occidentalis caurina – Northern Spotted Owl
Strix occidentalis occidentalis – California Spotted Owl
Strix occidentalis lucida – Mexican Spotted Owl
Range of the Spotted Owl
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc5%2FStrix_occidentalis_map.svg&hash=3b4943ac42bdb62755f9bb0a21a5c54a95047a69)
Spotted Owl:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F14%2FNorthern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg%2F220px-Northern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg&hash=357f5f71e4eaeedfa8235afda6d4252fec94f3f1)
Northern Spotted Owl:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F14%2FNorthern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg%2F220px-Northern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg&hash=357f5f71e4eaeedfa8235afda6d4252fec94f3f1)
Could have been named "Same MF-ing Owl From Oaxaca to Vancouver." Matter of fact, perhaps we should have invited some of those owl south of the border up north here to do the work our owls wouldn't do.
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According to this Dana Loesch article (http://danaloeschradio.com/the-real-story-of-the-bundy-ranch/) the fed gov owns 84% of Nevada. She's also claiming a link between the BLM actions forcing local ranchers out and Harry Reid.
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No, not really.
The Endangered Species Act is a real piece of work.
A city could be overrun with, say, gray squirrels. But if a geographically distinct habitat is short its supposedly proper proportion of squirrels, the jack-booted bureaucritters can swoop in and declare that particular population an "endangered species." Some city park, separated from other squirrel-habitat by roadways, can be the critical, crucial habitat of an endangered species! The Grant's Park Squirrel (AKA, the dirt-common "gray squirrel") can then be protected with the ESA and further development of Grant Park halted due to the critical, crucial and oh-so-important-to-the-ecology Grant's Park Squirrel. One more victory for the ESA and right-thinking people, for sure.
The distinction can be something as mundane as a river or roadway. Lots of critters on this side, but not enough (according to the jackboots) on the other. We have a new endangered species!
What I have described is what occurred with the Spotted Owl. There were puh-lenty of Spotted Owls, but relatively few north of one river. That was the pretext used to kill off industry and destroy livelihoods of icky white people in the PNW. (Were they "native" Americans, there would have at least been a decent fight, like the "indians vs whales" incident.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Spotted_Owl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_occidentalis
Strix occidentalis caurina – Northern Spotted Owl
Strix occidentalis occidentalis – California Spotted Owl
Strix occidentalis lucida – Mexican Spotted Owl
Range of the Spotted Owl
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc5%2FStrix_occidentalis_map.svg&hash=3b4943ac42bdb62755f9bb0a21a5c54a95047a69)
Spotted Owl:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F14%2FNorthern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg%2F220px-Northern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg&hash=357f5f71e4eaeedfa8235afda6d4252fec94f3f1)
Northern Spotted Owl:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F14%2FNorthern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg%2F220px-Northern_Spotted_Owl.USFWS-thumb.jpg&hash=357f5f71e4eaeedfa8235afda6d4252fec94f3f1)
Could have been named "Same MF-ing Owl From Oaxaca to Vancauver." Matter of fact, perhaps we should have invited some of those owl south of the border up north here to do the work our owls wouldn't do.
Have you done any research about the PNW spotted owl issue? If you look really deep into the issue the N. Spotted owl was a scape goat for a timber industry that was going to have to close mills and harvest contracts because of the decline in demand for timber for that region.
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Have you done any research about the PNW spotted owl issue? If you look really deep into the issue the N. Spotted owl was a scape goat for a timber industry that was going to have to close mills and harvest contracts because of the decline in demand for timber for that region.
Yep, I have also read other fairy tales.
I can also note the cost of timber over time, something a bit more solid to base one's conclusions on than self-serving revisionism by bureaucritters and fellow-travelers..
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They ran out of funding and it would be unethical to release domesticated turtles back into the wild, they were being fed by humans.
I wish there was some zoos or other conservation centers that could have taken them.
Not just unethical. Said turtles picked up different bacteria and pathogens than wild turtles. The smartest thing would have been to leave all the turtles in a huge but enclosed open area optimized for turtles. Then you could just open the gate and let them go.
Maybe pick a couple sacrificial lambs for the mandatory "let the humans touch the 'wild' animal" fundraising and PR aspects. Serve as turtle soup as they're finished serving as noble sacrifices to the PR deities. But if you touch and play around with the whole lot? Start feeding them different stuff? Yep. Gotta put them down, or you'll potentially spread a pathogen that'll wipe out the whole species.
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All you have to do is go to the home page of the parcel/forest/grassland that interests you most and its right there.
That covers one aspect of life. Then you need to remember to check the BATFE site daily for opportunities to comment on new infringements of your Second Amendment rights, the IRS site daily for opportunities to comment on attempts to rape your wallet more, the EPA site daily for opportunities to comment on banning your septic tank, the DOE site daily for opportunities to comment on making you buy crappy fuel, the NHTSA site dailyfor opportunities to comment on making your next car crappier than the fuel, the DOI site daily for opportunities to comment on screwing up the national park you want to take your kids to next year, etc. Then you have to keep up with your state doing a lot of the same, and don't forget your city and county in the mix as well.
So yeah, that's "all you have to do."
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Gotta put them down, or you'll potentially spread a pathogen that'll wipe out the whole species.
Worked on a lot of Native Americans. When's the APS wild turtle petting tour?
For that matter, when is the APS bureaucrat and liberal elected official petting tour?
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Did you report this activity to the higher ups?
I'm pretty sure that the folks who actually witnessed the flares being set off did report it to no avail. They are dead now so I can't ask them anymore.
It was really strange how a fire got started in early summer immediately following one of the deepest snow winters on record. ;/
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Yep, I have also read other fairy tales.
I can also note the cost of timber over time, something a bit more solid to base one's conclusions on than self-serving revisionism by bureaucritters and fellow-travelers..
Did you know they also approved harvest on several of the timber parcels in question but they went unharvested?
My "fairly tail" came directly from one of the members of the "God Squad".
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Did you know they also approved harvest on several of the timber parcels in question but they went unharvested?
What - five years after everyone went out of business...? =|
Does anyone recall the "housing bubble" of about 10 years ago? That lumber had to come from somewhere.
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What - five years after everyone went out of business...? =|
Does anyone recall the "housing bubble" of about 10 years ago? That lumber had to come from somewhere.
There was a little economic downturn from late 87 to the mid 90's, perhaps that had something to do with the reduced demand for timber at the time.
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Not just unethical. Said turtles picked up different bacteria and pathogens than wild turtles. The smartest thing would have been to leave all the turtles in a huge but enclosed open area optimized for turtles. Then you could just open the gate and let them go.
Maybe pick a couple sacrificial lambs for the mandatory "let the humans touch the 'wild' animal" fundraising and PR aspects. Serve as turtle soup as they're finished serving as noble sacrifices to the PR deities. But if you touch and play around with the whole lot? Start feeding them different stuff? Yep. Gotta put them down, or you'll potentially spread a pathogen that'll wipe out the whole species.
You too cannot expect love from the jonesian lunatic fringe.
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I'm pretty sure that the folks who actually witnessed the flares being set off did report it to no avail. They are dead now so I can't ask them anymore.
It was really strange how a fire got started in early summer immediately following one of the deepest snow winters on record. ;/
Oh wait... you didn't actually see it? But someone's cousins boyfriend's brother did and word got back to you? You can expect that infowars t shirt in the mail. No return address sent to general delivery
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Oh wait... you didn't actually see it? But someone's cousins boyfriend's brother did and word got back to you? You can expect that infowars t shirt in the mail. No return address sent to general delivery
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No, the people who saw it were highly respected pioneers, the biggest landowner in the area, and good friends.
So I'll thank you to take your damn accusations and shove them back up your ass :mad:
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Heres his daughter's "explanation" can someone tell me who they bought the original rights from? God forbid show an example of the documents
http://viralsurvival.com/2014/04/15/cliven-bundys-daughter-shiree-bundy-cox-explains-why-the-blm-came-for-her-father/
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What - five years after everyone went out of business...?
These are probably former small specialty business owners.
"We never g0t anybody in here after 5, so we started closing at 4:30." Never mind they previously closed at 5:30 and everybody who can afford their product can afford it specifically because they work until 5 or 6.
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No, the people who saw it were highly respected pioneers, the biggest landowner in the area, and good friends.
So I'll thank you to take your damn accusations and shove them back up your ass :mad:
so none of these highly respected pioneer biggest landowners spoke up?
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so none of these highly respected pioneer biggest landowners spoke up?
He already answered your question, there, Cletus. Snark fail.
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so none of these highly respected pioneer biggest landowners spoke up?
Reminds me of the respected old farmers who talk about the Iowa DNR having black helicopters and releasing cougars and rattlesnakes in the middle of the night.
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and the revolution is lead by men of real character
"Sheriff Richard Mack, former sheriff of Grahm County, Arizona and current director of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, its chief spokesman, and regular speaker at numerous Tea Party (which I endorse, BTW) events, said something on the news this morning (April 14, 2014) that has caused me to lose ALL respect for Sheriff Mack and the CSPOA.org He said:
"We were actually strategizing to put all of the women up at the front. If they are gonna start shooting, its gonna be women that are televised all across the world getting shot by these rouge federal officers."
makes a feller proud
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and the revolution is lead by men of real character
"Sheriff Richard Mack, former sheriff of Grahm County, Arizona and current director of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, its chief spokesman, and regular speaker at numerous Tea Party (which I endorse, BTW) events, said something on the news this morning (April 14, 2014) that has caused me to lose ALL respect for Sheriff Mack and the CSPOA.org He said:
"We were actually strategizing to put all of the women up at the front. If they are gonna start shooting, its gonna be women that are televised all across the world getting shot by these rouge federal officers."
makes a feller proud
I shudder to think what derision you would heap on someone posting an inflammatory quote with no attribution, if it showed cops in a negative light. The sarcastic question of whether the poster was ignorant or intentionally lying! The liberal use of fantasize and imagine, as well as admonitions that you are using those words advisedly! But I'm sure you saw it on facebook and it confirms your bias though, so it's totally legit.
Hypocrisy pointed out, i shall now return to my policy of not feeding the troll. :-*
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Reminds me of the respected old farmers who talk about the Iowa DNR having black helicopters and releasing cougars and rattlesnakes in the middle of the night.
Did you correct them that the helicopters are dark green.
jim
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I shudder to think what derision you would heap on someone posting an inflammatory quote with no attribution, if it showed cops in a negative light. The sarcastic question of whether the poster was ignorant or intentionally lying! The liberal use of fantasize and imagine, as well as admonitions that you are using those words advisedly! But I'm sure you saw it on facebook and it confirms your bias though, so it's totally legit.
Hypocrisy pointed out, i shall now return to my policy of not feeding the troll. :-*
i thought you woulda heard it before me
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/former-arizona-sheriff-reveals-chilling-strategy-to-put-women-up-at-the-front-during-bundy-ranch-standoff/
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sheriff joe not feeling the love for militia
right wing extremist heads exploding is just as good as left wing
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/21/famed-arizona-sheriff-sends-ominous-verbal-warning-shot-to-armed-militias/
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Did you correct them that the helicopters are dark green.
jim
I try not to make eye contact, if you do then you hear about how their cousin's neighbor shot a cougar that was stalking their sheep herd and buried it but it had a GPS collar on it and the fish cops showed up and dug up the body.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwALTdrMZ8
Keep it mind that BLM can regulate land the same way the ATF regulates firearms. "Sporting Use" anyone?
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On black/dark green helicopters:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/Law-Enforcement--This-Is-the-Park-Service--Come-Out-with-Your-Hands-Up.html
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I try not to make eye contact, if you do then you hear about how their cousin's neighbor shot a cougar that was stalking their sheep herd and buried it but it had a GPS collar on it and the fish cops showed up and dug up the body.
They didn't notice the collar?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwALTdrMZ8
Keep it mind that BLM can regulate land the same way the ATF regulates firearms. "Sporting Use" anyone?
But it doesn't happen overnight, takes a long time to approve the management plans for the land. Most people unless they are directly involved with said BLM parcel never hear about it until something like the Bundy incident happens. If you are that concerned about the activity of all the Gov Agencies, see the https://www.federalregister.gov/, react before it hits the MSM. Step up and do something instead of complaining online about it after something happens.
Did you know that a local grassroots support from all walks of life shut down oil and gas leasing on the front range of the Rockies in WY? The USFS and BLM was all set to start selling leases and the locals and other groups put a stop to it, even old leases that weren't being used were cancelled. http://www.wyomingoutdoorcouncil.org/html/what_we_do/public_lands/bridger_teton.shtml
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sheriff joe not feeling the love for militia
right wing extremist heads exploding is just as good as left wing
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/21/famed-arizona-sheriff-sends-ominous-verbal-warning-shot-to-armed-militias/
According to court records, the deputy and his partner stopped their vehicle, then flashed their headlights and honked their horn, a common practice used by law enforcement to trick drug smugglers into thinking the car is there to transfer their narcotics load and lure them out of hiding.
Law enforcement behaving just like drug smugglers to trick other drug smugglers, can't understand why a person might of thought he was witnessing a drug smuggler. ;/
The deputies then got out, also dressed in camouflage but clearly marked with sheriff’s patches on their clothing, and began to track what appeared to be fresh footprints, authorities said.
That’s when Malley emerged from the darkness with his rifle raised “yelling commands,” according to the probable cause statement.
The deputy, illuminated by Malley’s flashlight at this point, identified himself as law enforcement, pointing out the “word sheriff across his chest,” and ordered Malley to drop his weapon.
So "clearly" being he had one of those patches across his chest. Says Malley "emerged from the darkness", was this night? Can't understand why Malley just might not of seen the police patch; night time and was hiding so as to be able to get the drop on a possible drug smuggler which means he just might not of been in a position to see the patch to begin with.
Another deputy eventually arrived and arrested Malley for aggravated assault.
Aggrevated assault? WTF? ???
“I have to commend my deputy for not killing this person, which easily could have happened,” Arpaio said. “He’s lucky he didn’t see 30 rounds fired into him.”
I wonder just how that would of happened? The deputy was caught with his pants down. More like the deputy is lucky he was filled with lead, because we all know how those crazy militia types are just looking for an excuse to kill people.
Glenn Spencer, president of American Border Patrol, a civilian group which operates from a ranch along the Mexican border in southern Arizona, won’t condemn the actions of private armed militia organizations, but he also doesn’t recommend it.
“It’s a free country. They’re not violating any law. They’re not trespassing,” said Spencer, whose group uses technology, including sensors and unmanned aircraft rather than boots on the ground to monitor the border.
Who are these people? Also, the bolded part.
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Most people unless they are directly involved with said BLM parcel never hear about it until something like the Bundy incident happens.
Bolded QFT. Seriously?!?! In addition to everything else I have to do as a small business owner, I have to constantly scan the federal register to see if Uncle Sugar is going to stick his big green weenie in my little bunghole? How many people here do this? How many people new to check the EPA's website to see when they were going to regulate lead ammo out of existence? Someone else (One "someone else) found it and word spread like wildfire. How many other times have the feds done rules making, yeah they "posted" it and hoped that no one would see it.
It reminds me of this:
"But the plans were on display . . ."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a torch."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."
You put a lot more faith in bureaucrats running things then I do. You want "Land Management"?!?! I give you two words "Ft. McClellan". Or here's to better ones for "Soviet Union".
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Bolded QFT. Seriously?!?! In addition to everything else I have to do as a small business owner, I have to constantly scan the federal register to see if Uncle Sugar is going to stick his big green weenie in my little bunghole? How many people here do this? How many people new to check the EPA's website to see when they were going to regulate lead ammo out of existence? Someone else (One "someone else) found it and word spread like wildfire. How many other times have the feds done rules making, yeah they "posted" it and hoped that no one would see it.
It reminds me of this:
You put a lot more faith in bureaucrats running things then I do. You want "Land Management"?!?! I give you two words "Ft. McClellan". Or here's to better ones for "Soviet Union".
That is why people join various groups (such as Ohio Soybean Growers Association*) that have paid staff to check the federal registry (and other sources of information) to make sure that their members are informed.
*I picked that because of a press release they released and someone sent me.
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On black/dark green helicopters:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/Law-Enforcement--This-Is-the-Park-Service--Come-Out-with-Your-Hands-Up.html
Since that is from 1997, how did it all end up?
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Since that is from 1997, how did it all end up?
NPS took over that part of the island for pennies on the dollar. The superintendent, after other not quite as egregious, but numerous incidents, was laterally transferred (gov speak for "we can't get rid of him so we'll "promote" him and stick him in an office by himself") and later retired. The supervisory ranger was teflon and retired about five years ago. Nice guy in person and off the clock, but like most LE on the enviro side, a bit overzealous on LE for revenue enhancement, and certainly a proponent of non-consumptive users over consumptive users.
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Since that is from 1997, how did it all end up?
If you really cared you should have ben paying attention when it happened.
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If you really cared you should have ben paying attention when it happened.
I was 23 in 1997 and unfortunately probably more drunk then sober at the time.
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Snopes on the Bundy Incident
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp
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Snopes on the Bundy Incident
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp
pshaw snopes is in denial about the apache choppers too
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pshaw snopes is in denial about the apache choppers too
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainjanestuff.com%2Fimages%2Fcrowpie.jpg&hash=9d178d4b81b77ef2d81e1608669f13d2f9b836cd)
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???
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???
A lot of so called press needs to be eating a lot of crow over the Bundy incident.
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I didn't know the helicopter thing got beyond social media and the blogosphere.
(That's the phone-jamming story, right?)
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I was 23 in 1997 and unfortunately probably more drunk then sober at the time.
That's the problem with children today, no sense of history.
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That's the problem with children today, no sense of history.
:rofl:
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Sorry, I'm going side with 400-500 Americans that stopped what they were doing to go out and stand in the desert against heavily armed agents of the US Govt.
P.S. If the "Lover-of-all-things-Jackboot" is backing you up, you might want to re-evaluate your position. ;) =D
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Occupy wall street had even more numbers
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500 is an awful small number of patriots. Doesn't bode well for the revolution. Though for me the sheer volume of untruthful stuff from that side is most telling.
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500 is an awful small number of patriots. Doesn't bode well for the revolution. Though for me the sheer volume of untruthful stuff from that side is most telling.
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This is my problem.
It's hard to rally behind a cause when so many in the cause are spouting ridiculousness.
Gov lies = OMG evil gov (and rightly so)
"patriots" lie = OMG EVIL GOV!!!!
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Sorry, I'm going side with 400-500 Americans that stopped what they were doing to go out and stand in the desert against heavily armed agents of the US Govt.
P.S. If the "Lover-of-all-things-Jackboot" is backing you up, you might want to re-evaluate your position. ;) =D
Bundy's ancestors should have staked out the boundaries of the ranch in the past before the land was surveyed after the Mexican American war of 1846-47, since he has paid grazing fees in the past, that means he has acknowledged that someone else owns the land he grazed on. Bundy has about as much right to the BLM land as I do to the family ancestral grounds of Huron Island on the Mississippi River that is owned by the Corp of Engineers now.
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Occupy wall street had even more numbers
Another silly protest based on a lot of misquoted half-truths.
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Occupy wall street had even more numbers
Middle of the desert in Nevada, vs middle of a large city. Haven't heard how many people were there, but if it was 400-500 I would say that is a LOT of people.
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/
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General Land Office was established in 1812. US got Nevada as a spoil of the Mexican American war of 1846-47. Bundy family started their ranch in 1877. That means Bundy's family would have gotten their land via the General Land Office or bought it off an existing land owner.
In 1916 The Stock-Raising Homestead Act was passed that increased lands granted by the 1862 Homestead Act increased to 640 acres, looks like Bundy's family failed to act, or they did and the land was broken up amongst a lot of heirs.
In 1976 Homesteading was ended, except for Alaska where that ended in 1986. Cliven Bundy looks old enough to have been an adult before 1976, so he should have grabbed his 640 acres of prime Nevada desert when he was younger.
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Occupy wall street had even more numbers
However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.
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However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.
The presence of guns has bearing on them being right? That's an interesting idea
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/
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If y'all would read the article you might think differently about Cliven Bundy.
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I return to my original post in this thread. I'm not in the "Cliven Bundy fan club". However, I'm much less in the government's camp in how this was handled.
They have spent well over a million dollars of our money to collect a claim of million dollars in fines. While after the media attention they may now say they are going after Bundy to recover that money, I don't see any evidence of them looking to recover costs pre-media blitz, only to remove the cattle at taxpayer expense. Even if they were going to recover the costs, the cattle removal process itself was ridiculously overpriced. If herding cattle actually cost that much, either there would be no cattle ranchers, or we'd be paying $400/lb for beef.
They claimed that they needed a freakin' battalion's worth of armed LE at the scene "for the safety of our personnel". Yet in everything I've read or watched so far, the only physical attacks and injuries I've seen are to Bundy's son, Bundy's sister, and several protestors. The only battery or physical threat I've seen to LE is a dog that was kicked. While post "militia presence" it is harder to argue against an armed government presence, it is much harder to argue for the oversized armed government presence that was there before this blew up, and frankly, to me, is a primary reason that this did blow up the way it did. They wanted to have an intimidating presence at the scene, and it simply didn't work out the way they'd planned.
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Occupy wall street had even more numbers
But very few took had to take off work.
As for those who stand up to gov't thuggery not being the nicest people you'd ever want to invite to your pajama party, no *expletive deleted*it. If you have read anything about the dissidents in the communist countries you'd know that almost to a man they were right bastards. "Prickly" doesn't even begin to describe it. Nice folks don't stand up to gov't thuggery when everyone else submits. Nice folks worry about their kids and what their neighbors might think and then bow and scrape and work out the best deal they can. It takes a true egotist, willing to do nearly anything, to think he can beat the jackboots and to risk his family's well-being in the process.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375824/case-little-sedition-kevin-d-williamson
A great deal of the discussion about the Cliven Bundy standoff in Nevada has focused on the legal questions — the litigation between Mr. Bundy and the BLM, his eccentric (i.e., batzoid) legal rationales, etc. But as Rich Lowry and others have argued, this is best understood not as a legal proceeding but as an act of civil disobedience. John Hinderaker and Rich both are correct that as a legal question Mr. Bundy is legless. But that is largely beside the point.
Of course the law is against Cliven Bundy. How could it be otherwise?...
But not all dissidents are content to submit to what we, in the Age of Obama, still insist on quaintly calling “the rule of law.” And there is a price to pay for that, too: King George not only would have been well within his legal rights to hang every one of this nation’s seditious Founding Fathers, he would have been duty-bound to do so, the keeping of the civil peace being the first responsibility of the civil authority. Every fugitive slave, and every one of the sainted men and women who harbored and enabled them, was a law-breaker, and who can blame them if none was content to submit to what passed for justice among the slavers? The situation was less dramatic during the government shutdown, but every one of the veterans and cheesed-off citizens who disregarded President Obama’s political theater and pushed aside his barricades was a law-breaker, too — and bless them for being that.
...
Mr. Bundy’s stand should not be construed as a general template for civic action, it is nonetheless the case that, in measured doses, a little sedition is an excellent thing.
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I return to my original post in this thread. I'm not in the "Cliven Bundy fan club". However, I'm much less in the government's camp in how this was handled.
They have spent well over a million dollars of our money to collect a claim of million dollars in fines. While after the media attention they may now say they are going after Bundy to recover that money, I don't see any evidence of them looking to recover costs pre-media blitz, only to remove the cattle at taxpayer expense. Even if they were going to recover the costs, the cattle removal process itself was ridiculously overpriced. If herding cattle actually cost that much, either there would be no cattle ranchers, or we'd be paying $400/lb for beef.
They claimed that they needed a freakin' battalion's worth of armed LE at the scene "for the safety of our personnel". Yet in everything I've read or watched so far, the only physical attacks and injuries I've seen are to Bundy's son, Bundy's sister, and several protestors. The only battery or physical threat I've seen to LE is a dog that was kicked. While post "militia presence" it is harder to argue against an armed government presence, it is much harder to argue for the oversized armed government presence that was there before this blew up, and frankly, to me, is a primary reason that this did blow up the way it did. They wanted to have an intimidating presence at the scene, and it simply didn't work out the way they'd planned.
The Sagebrush Rebellion did have a history of violence towards government agencies and employees. How would of you felt if a couple BLM employees showed up to round up the cattle and they were killed by the Bundy clan and followers? Would you support a para military assault on the Bundy Ranch then?
Also the Washington Post article says that the BLM removes cattle several times a year due to non payment of grazing fees. I'm going to assume that they don't seen the BLM SWAT for those collections.
I'm also wondering if Cliven Bundy threatened to shoot anyone who attempted to confiscate his cattle?
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However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.
The ows didn't pose for pics aiming rifles at anyone either. And even they were smart enough not to give the photographer their name and locale.
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Bundy promised to shoot . On video. And the "crowd"hes got 52 grandkids 14 kids. How many weren't kin? Stupid kin but kin. I expect him to commit suicide by cop but I hope they jail him. Real suicide is a mormon bozo nono.
And ain't it odd the Nevada cattlemens assoc doesn't play with him?
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You couldn't ask for a better poster child for the disturbed than cliven and his kin
http://mobile.rawstory.com/all/2014-04-16-cliven-bundy-threatens-violence-against-federal-agents-as-sean-hannity-eggs-him-on#1
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The Sagebrush Rebellion did have a history of violence towards government agencies and employees. How would of you felt if a couple BLM employees showed up to round up the cattle and they were killed by the Bundy clan and followers? Would you support a para military assault on the Bundy Ranch then?
Then they show up with one or two cops, not a "shock and awe" force. Or if there really were credible threats, not just bluster from the Bundys, then you might "for the safety of our personnel", not show up at all, and continue working through the courts. There was no threat to human life that required BLM to absolutely have to be there if their lives were in danger. This is about cows and money.
I would absolutely not support a "paramilitary" assault on the ranch, even if Bundy himself shot someone. That's how you get more innocent people killed. Unless that's now an okay way to "get your man", sorta like Randy Weaver's wife.
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Guys, you know that anyone who's every worked on a ranch is laughing their heads off at both of you, right? You're nitpicking each other to death over conspiracy-theorist BS semantics. If you want to know what the real problem is, and why things happened the way they did, why don't you tritty-trot your happy city behinds down to the nearest real ranch and ask? I can tell you with absolute certainty they won't be discussing force/scale/response ratios specific to this incident. They will be talking about things like, oh, systematic destruction of their way of life with this just being the latest and most public example.
The BLM (and government in general) has been pushing ranchers around for decades, all with the willing aid of ass-ignorant Americans who's ideas about ranching comes from watching City Slickers. Finally someone stands up to the sorry SOBs and the best you clowns can do is sit around running them down and trying to out-infowar each other?
Now, when you're finished fighting over which of you has the better seat on the see-saw, can we clear the playground so the other kids can come out?
Brad
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I, for one, welcome our new safely and responsibly raised imported Chinese "beef".
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Guys, you know that anyone who's every worked on a ranch is laughing their heads off at both of you, right?
Brad
What did I do?
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What did I do?
I like blanket statements. Gives me a false sense of superiority and feeds my pseudo-megalomaniacal tendencies. =D [ar15]
Brad
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I wonder if some folks on this thread have ever read extensively on the history of the Founding Fathers (let alone the rank and file fighting the Brits), as individuals? I guess you're only allowed to object to the .gov thugs when you're of a sainted character. ;/ That guy Koresh was a real bastard too, so it was totally his fault that the feds burned all those people alive and shot the women and children running out of the buildings. Randy Weaver? Total racist, so the feds had no choice but to murder his family.
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I like blanket statements. Gives me a false sense of superiority and feeds my pseudo-megalomaniacal tendencies. =D [ar15]
Brad
Well, as long as you recognize it... :P =D
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Guys, you know that anyone who's every worked on a ranch is laughing their heads off at both of you, right? You're nitpicking each other to death over conspiracy-theorist BS semantics. If you want to know what the real problem is, and why things happened the way they did, why don't you tritty-trot your happy city behinds down to the nearest real ranch and ask? I can tell you with absolute certainty they won't be discussing force/scale/response ratios specific to this incident. They will be talking about things like, oh, systematic destruction of their way of life with this just being the latest and most public example.
The BLM (and government in general) has been pushing ranchers around for decades, all with the willing aid of ass-ignorant Americans who's ideas about ranching comes from watching City Slickers. Finally someone stands up to the sorry SOBs and the best you clowns can do is sit around running them down and trying to out-infowar each other?
Now, when you're finished fighting over which of you has the better seat on the see-saw, can we clear the playground so the other kids can come out?
Brad
FINALLY, someone injects a perspective that projects what the "bigger picture" behind this Bundy situation really is.
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What did I do?
I'm trying to figure that out also.
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Replace BLM with private land owner. How would you side with the private landowner if Bundy's cattle were grazing on it and Bundy refusing the pay rent.
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If there was in fact a bigger perspective the lds church and Nevada cattlemens assoc would be all over this. They want no part of him. gor good reason. Watching folks on the right rally to a fraud is just as funny as when its folks on the left. Equally as myopic
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Then they show up with one or two cops, not a "shock and awe" force. Or if there really were credible threats, not just bluster from the Bundys, then you might "for the safety of our personnel", not show up at all, and continue working through the courts. There was no threat to human life that required BLM to absolutely have to be there if their lives were in danger. This is about cows and money.
I would absolutely not support a "paramilitary" assault on the ranch, even if Bundy himself shot someone. That's how you get more innocent people killed. Unless that's now an okay way to "get your man", sorta like Randy Weaver's wife.
Bundy acted like he had a force of faithful followers that were going to show up and side with him. Hell, even the picture in the Washington Times show a protester aiming a rifle towards the line.
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Even breitbart acknowledges the harry reid chinese story was bull but folks are still pushing it. Heck look in this thread. The more manure you shovel for your side yhe more it shows your weakness. From rhe beginning the bull was pretty one sided
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Why does everyone assume Bundy has to be some sort of virginal pure-as-driven-snow saint in this to justify some support?
He is reportedly the last rancher in that county -- because the government has been driving ranchers there out of business ~~ and using the funding derived from grazing fees to accomplish this.
Wouldn't that cause anyone to be resentful of the government's actions?
Since when is it the purpose of our government, or any of its agencies, to do harm to the citizens? I thought the purpose of government was supposed to be both minimal and beneficial....but then maybe I still believe in Santa Claus.
Bundy may have a few pimples. After Ruby Ridge & Waco I'd say our government has worse.
Just be careful of the media .... and [tinfoil] low hanging fruit [tinfoil] when dealing with cattle and bull :angel: .......
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Why is anyone believing anything he says? Time after time he has lied
Or those in his camp have
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TG: any time the .gov does something bad, CSD just tries character assassination on the victim. It's the "bitch had it coming" method of argumentation. Best to ignore it. I can only assume Charby is joining him because he views BLM as a potential ally or future employer.
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Replace BLM with private land owner. How would you side with the private landowner if Bundy's cattle were grazing on it and Bundy refusing the pay rent.
Replace King George with any randomly selected colonist. Makes as much sense.
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http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-bureau-of-land-managements-bastille.html
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Replace BLM with private land owner. How would you side with the private landowner if Bundy's cattle were grazing on it and Bundy refusing the pay rent.
Well, first off, the private landowner charges lease fees based on market forces and what the market will bear, so kind of apples and oranges.
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I can only assume Charby is joining him because he views BLM as a potential ally or future employer.
No not at all. I think Mr. Bundy had all the chances in the world to be compliant (with peaceful resolution) and choose otherwise. No man is above the law, whether you agree with the law or not. I don't want anarchy, I do think about resource usage past my lifetime and how a poor decision today can cause devastation in the future long after I am gone.
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Replace King George with any randomly selected colonist. Makes as much sense.
Using your rational: Okay lets give all the land back to the Natives and everyone go back to your ancestor's home land.
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No not at all. I think Mr. Bundy had all the chances in the world to be compliant (with peaceful resolution) and choose otherwise. No man is above the law, whether you agree with the law or not. I don't want anarchy, I do think about resource usage past my lifetime and how a poor decision today can cause devastation in the future long after I am gone.
What are your thoughts on the American Revolution? How about civil disobedience against segregation or miscegenation laws? The Underground Railroad, which directly violated the Fugitive Slave laws?
Cause I'm pretty sure your "No man is above the law" schtick, while very noble and principled sounding, is really more like "No man is above the laws that I don't dislike that much."
Using your rational: Okay lets give all the land back to the Natives and everyone go back to your ancestor's home land.
Which natives? Most of the tribal lines at the time of the colonists arrival were drawn by conquest. Hell, the Apaches literally genocided the Anasazi off the face of the earth in their blitzkrieg up from Central America.
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Which natives? Most of the tribal lines at the time of the colonists arrival were drawn by conquest. Hell, the Apaches literally genocided the Anasazi off the face of the earth in their blitzkrieg up from Central America.
So did every other group of people in the rest of the world.
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http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/reid-not-second-guessing-blm-s-move-bundy-dispute
http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/steve-sebelius/let-s-be-honest-about-what-bundy-and-not
and if you had doubts about his sanity? he represented himself in federal court. thats funny right there
so anyone know whats his place is worth? hes gonna be a couple mill in the hole shortly.
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So did every other group of people in the rest of the world.
Poor Anasazi, always getting slaughtered... ;)
No, but that was sort of my point.
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so anyone know whats his place is worth? hes gonna be a couple mill in the hole shortly.
A little more than a couple million, which is another bit about government overreach and fining people into oblivion. I'm pretty sure a private landowner couldn't get this kinda dough for money owed on a lease.
That order from October 2013 says Bundy owes $200 per day per head for every day he fails to move his cattle. That amounts to roughly $640 million in damages owed to the federal government for illegally grazing his cattle.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/16/feds-accused-leaving-trail-wreckage-after-nevada-ranch-standoff/
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No not at all. I think Mr. Bundy had all the chances in the world to be compliant (with peaceful resolution) and choose otherwise. No man is above the law, whether you agree with the law or not. I don't want anarchy, I do think about resource usage past my lifetime and how a poor decision today can cause devastation in the future long after I am gone.
To review:
Bundy and his fellow ranchers were paying grazing fees
BLM steps in a to raise grazing fees, citing the ranchers' need to pay for damages to the desert tortoise habitat
Grazing fees are raised to a price point far beyond market rate (i.e., although grazing is "allowed", the fees intentionally set so high that they are economically unfeasible. This is the very epitome of a de facto ban)
Cattlemen can no longer afford to ranch the land they've ranched for generations, many end up losing multi-generation family ranches
Bundy, trying to fight back, goes to court. Court sides with BLM. Twice. Precedent? There is no precedent. BLM authority is so far-reaching and unfettered that their precedent is "Because we said so". (Don't believe me? Look it up.)
BLM sends in armed military personnel in assault vehicles, sporting riot shields and full combat gear
To summarize..
Ranchers' families have grazed land for generations. Ranchers are paying grazing fees.
Government raises grazing fees to the a point that ranchers can no longer afford to ranch the land their family has grazed for generations.
Multiple ranchers go out of business, but tries to have his day in court.
Court laughs in his face multiple times.
Soldiers show up in full battle gear to take his possessions.
And you still think the onus to settle amicably rests on Cliven Bundy's shoulders... ? ???
Using that logic it's a victim's fault for getting robbed, and it is their responsibility to play nice when the robber tells them they will be back for more. Sorry, but no. At some point enough is enough. Personally I think the man has been a bastion of patience. Far more than I or a lot of the people I know would have been.
And, for the record. We are not talking about "the law". There is no law on any book which specifically makes what Mr. Bundy is doing illegal. What we are talking about is "the regulation". Specifically a BLM regulation developed on an arbitrary basis by personnel with questionable motives, emplaced under questionable circumstances, and enforced on a seemingly arbitrary basis. We talk about this all the time, only instead of "ranchers" and "BLM" we use the terms "gun owners" and "ATF". Takes on a whole new dimension now, doesn't it?
I don't get it. I really don't. We rail against tyranny and government overreach on this very forum on a daily basis. Yet for some reason people want to throw this man under the bus for standing up against that very thing. Have we really sunk to the point where we not only turn a blind eye to the tyranny we despise, but also willingly denounce others standing up to it?
Brad
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http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/steve-sebelius/let-s-be-honest-about-what-bundy-and-not
From the article (an op-ed piece, not a news item):
“It [the BLM] has a moral responsibility to not let armed thugs and threats of violence seize hundreds of thousands of acres of public land for their own.”
I agree. It's time the BLM stopped doing that.
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Brad: people like resistance to tyranny as a theoretical concept or something the wogs in benighted foreign countries do. Recognizing that they are in fact slaves of a tyrannical fed.gov makes them feel icky, so they have to demonize anyone resisting so they can justify their own acquiescence.
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BLM takes the "seize and impound (cattle)" language in the court order to mean "remove, destroy, or kill anything we don't like".
It just gets better and better... :facepalm:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/16/feds-accused-leaving-trail-wreckage-after-nevada-ranch-standoff/
This is not going to end well. Nor soon. Nor peacefully, I'm afraid.
Brad
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To review:
Bundy and his fellow ranchers were paying grazing fees
BLM steps in a to raise grazing fees, citing the ranchers' need to pay for damages to the desert tortoise habitat
Grazing fees are raised to a price point far beyond market rate (i.e., although grazing is "allowed", the fees intentionally set so high that they are economically unfeasible. This is the very epitome of a de facto ban)
Cattlemen can no longer afford to ranch the land they've ranched for generations, many end up losing multi-generation family ranches
Bundy, trying to fight back, goes to court. Court sides with BLM. Twice. Precedent? There is no precedent. BLM authority is so far-reaching and unfettered that their precedent is "Because we said so". (Don't believe me? Look it up.)
BLM sends in armed military personnel in assault vehicles, sporting riot shields and full combat gear
To summarize..
Ranchers' families have grazed land for generations. Ranchers are paying grazing fees.
Government raises grazing fees to the a point that ranchers can no longer afford to ranch the land their family has grazed for generations.
Multiple ranchers go out of business, but tries to have his day in court.
Court laughs in his face multiple times.
Soldiers show up in full battle gear to take his possessions.
And you still think the onus to settle amicably rests on Cliven Bundy's shoulders... ? ???
Using that logic it's a victim's fault for getting robbed, and it is their responsibility to play nice when the robber tells them they will be back for more. Sorry, but no. At some point enough is enough. Personally I think the man has been a bastion of patience. Far more than I or a lot of the people I know would have been.
And, for the record. We are not talking about "the law". There is no law on any book which specifically makes what Mr. Bundy is doing illegal. What we are talking about is "the regulation". Specifically a BLM regulation developed on an arbitrary basis by personnel with questionable motives, emplaced under questionable circumstances, and enforced on a seemingly arbitrary basis. We talk about this all the time, only instead of "ranchers" and "BLM" we use the terms "gun owners" and "ATF". Takes on a whole new dimension now, doesn't it?
I don't get it. I really don't. We rail against tyranny and government overreach on this very forum on a daily basis. Yet for some reason people want to throw this man under the bus for standing up against that very thing. Have we really sunk to the point where we not only turn a blind eye to the tyranny we despise, but also willingly denounce others standing up to it?
Brad
How much is the fee he refused to pay? And why didn't he pay it,? Your theory diiffers from bundys statements about why
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To review:
Bundy and his fellow ranchers were paying grazing fees
BLM steps in a to raise grazing fees, citing the ranchers' need to pay for damages to the desert tortoise habitat
Grazing fees are raised to a price point far beyond market rate (i.e., although grazing is "allowed", the fees intentionally set so high that they are economically unfeasible. This is the very epitome of a de facto ban)
Cattlemen can no longer afford to ranch the land they've ranched for generations, many end up losing multi-generation family ranches
Bundy, trying to fight back, goes to court. Court sides with BLM. Twice. Precedent? There is no precedent. BLM authority is so far-reaching and unfettered that their precedent is "Because we said so". (Don't believe me? Look it up.)
BLM sends in armed military personnel in assault vehicles, sporting riot shields and full combat gear
To summarize..
Ranchers' families have grazed land for generations. Ranchers are paying grazing fees.
Government raises grazing fees to the a point that ranchers can no longer afford to ranch the land their family has grazed for generations.
Multiple ranchers go out of business, but tries to have his day in court.
Court laughs in his face multiple times.
Soldiers show up in full battle gear to take his possessions.
And you still think the onus to settle amicably rests on Cliven Bundy's shoulders... ? ???
Using that logic it's a victim's fault for getting robbed, and it is their responsibility to play nice when the robber tells them they will be back for more. Sorry, but no. At some point enough is enough. Personally I think the man has been a bastion of patience. Far more than I or a lot of the people I know would have been.
And, for the record. We are not talking about "the law". There is no law on any book which specifically makes what Mr. Bundy is doing illegal. What we are talking about is "the regulation". Specifically a BLM regulation developed on an arbitrary basis by personnel with questionable motives, emplaced under questionable circumstances, and enforced on a seemingly arbitrary basis. We talk about this all the time, only instead of "ranchers" and "BLM" we use the terms "gun owners" and "ATF". Takes on a whole new dimension now, doesn't it?
I don't get it. I really don't. We rail against tyranny and government overreach on this very forum on a daily basis. Yet for some reason people want to throw this man under the bus for standing up against that very thing. Have we really sunk to the point where we not only turn a blind eye to the tyranny we despise, but also willingly denounce others standing up to it?
Brad
Okay lets have a lower fee that doesn't cover the BLM costs so we can subsidize a rancher.
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Okay lets have a lower fee that doesn't cover the BLM costs so we can subsidize a rancher.
I'm trying hard to remember your stance on farm subsidies...
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To review:
Bundy and his fellow ranchers were paying grazing fees
BLM steps in a to raise grazing fees, citing the ranchers' need to pay for damages to the desert tortoise habitat
Grazing fees are raised to a price point far beyond market rate (i.e., although grazing is "allowed", the fees intentionally set so high that they are economically unfeasible. This is the very epitome of a de facto ban)
Cattlemen can no longer afford to ranch the land they've ranched for generations, many end up losing multi-generation family ranches
Bundy, trying to fight back, goes to court. Court sides with BLM. Twice. Precedent? There is no precedent. BLM authority is so far-reaching and unfettered that their precedent is "Because we said so". (Don't believe me? Look it up.)
BLM sends in armed military personnel in assault vehicles, sporting riot shields and full combat gear
To summarize..
Ranchers' families have grazed land for generations. Ranchers are paying grazing fees.
Government raises grazing fees to the a point that ranchers can no longer afford to ranch the land their family has grazed for generations.
Multiple ranchers go out of business, but tries to have his day in court.
Court laughs in his face multiple times.
Soldiers show up in full battle gear to take his possessions.
And you still think the onus to settle amicably rests on Cliven Bundy's shoulders... ? ???
Using that logic it's a victim's fault for getting robbed, and it is their responsibility to play nice when the robber tells them they will be back for more. Sorry, but no. At some point enough is enough. Personally I think the man has been a bastion of patience. Far more than I or a lot of the people I know would have been.
And, for the record. We are not talking about "the law". There is no law on any book which specifically makes what Mr. Bundy is doing illegal. What we are talking about is "the regulation". Specifically a BLM regulation developed on an arbitrary basis by personnel with questionable motives, emplaced under questionable circumstances, and enforced on a seemingly arbitrary basis. We talk about this all the time, only instead of "ranchers" and "BLM" we use the terms "gun owners" and "ATF". Takes on a whole new dimension now, doesn't it?
I don't get it. I really don't. We rail against tyranny and government overreach on this very forum on a daily basis. Yet for some reason people want to throw this man under the bus for standing up against that very thing. Have we really sunk to the point where we not only turn a blind eye to the tyranny we despise, but also willingly denounce others standing up to it?
Brad
This.
SO. MUCH. MOTHER. *expletive deleted*ing. THIS.
For those on this board saying that "he broke the law", I'd like to point out that we *might* have a a couple of members from the east coast that either have been, or as of today, possibly committing felonies by not registering certain firearms. Do you think their stand is principled or should they get a a no-knock-oh-dark-thirty-raid by TPTB?
Because it's the same GODDAMN THING !!!!
What we had here was an out of control bureaucracy that decided it was the law. That's why Mr. Bundy lost in court. Because whatever the BLM said the law was, it was. No *expletive deleted*ing comment period, no duly elected reps voting on it. No *expletive deleted*ing nothing. Just some *expletive deleted*ing bureaucrat deciding that they didn't like ranching and ranchers anymore and we're just going to do away with them.
And I pity those who fail to see that.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
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NY and CT bans are actual laws, not bureaucrat decisions. So anyone not registering/eliminating their illegal guns and mags is actually less justified than Bundy.
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Okay lets have a lower fee that doesn't cover the BLM costs so we can subsidize a rancher.
Show me where in the Constitution the US can own land and act as landlord?
You just don't get it, do you?
And even if, What "costs" does the BLM have for a bunch of scrub desert?
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Show me where in the Constitution the US can own land and act as landlord?
You just don't get it, do you?
And even if, What "costs" does the BLM have for a bunch of scrub desert?
Constitution allows for Legislature to create laws.
Let's put the land up for sale, no whining when Ted Turner and folks like him buy it up and keep all the public out.
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This.
SO. MUCH. MOTHER. *expletive deleted*. THIS.
For those on this board saying that "he broke the law", I'd like to point out that we *might* have a a couple of members from the east coast that either have been, or as of today, possibly committing felonies by not registering certain firearms. Do you think their stand is principled or should they get a a no-knock-oh-dark-thirty-raid by TPTB?
Because it's the same GODDAMN THING !!!!
What we had here was an out of control bureaucracy that decided it was the law. That's why Mr. Bundy lost in court. Because whatever the BLM said the law was, it was. No *expletive deleted* comment period, no duly elected reps voting on it. No *expletive deleted* nothing. Just some *expletive deleted* bureaucrat deciding that they didn't like ranching and ranchers anymore and we're just going to do away with them.
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Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (a Law) made it legal for BLM to charge for grazing privileges.
http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/field_offices/Casper/range/taylor.1.html
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Constitution allows for Legislature to create laws.
Let's put the land up for sale, no whining when Ted Turner and folks like him buy it up and keep all the public out.
Fine. Then Ted Turner will have to figure out some way to make it pay, like leasing it out at market rates to local ranchers.
P.S. If you can convince Ted Turner to by a bunch of desert that barely fit for cows and some turtles, and not much else your one of the best salesmen in the world.
P.S.S. Why does the .gov have to own it? Do you actually think the .gov will take better care of the land than a private owner?
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Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (a Law) made it legal for BLM to charge for grazing privileges.
http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/field_offices/Casper/range/taylor.1.html
Incorrect. The Taylor Grazing Act established the U.S. Grazing Service. It's function was to monitor and manage grazing rights on public lands, not to seize land arbitrarily, assess fees beyond market rate to shut out grazing, or seize privately owned stock.
The BLM didn't even exist until 1946, twelve years after the 1934 Taylor Act. In fact, the BLM had no mandate and no real authority of any kind until the Federal Land Management Act (1976). At that point they went from relatively small bureau to an office with the singular distinction of bureau oversight being strictly limited to the Executive Branch. (In other words, no matter how idiotic BLM actions might be, Congress and the House have exactly zero oversight authority. That is authority is specifically reserved for the POTUS. If that doesn't scare you, nothing will.)
Since you seem bent on making the government the good guy, defend this one...
Homesteaded, deeded, taxes-current land target for seizure by the BLM.
http://intellihub.com/blm-threatens-henderson-ranch-texas-massive-land-grab/
Brad
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How did Henderson lose his case? Back when.
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Incorrect. The Taylor Grazing Act established the U.S. Grazing Service. It's function was to monitor and manage grazing rights on public lands, not to seize land arbitrarily, assess fees beyond market rate to shut out grazing, or seize privately owned stock.
The BLM didn't even exist until 1946, twelve years after the 1934 Taylor Act. In fact, the BLM had no mandate and no real authority of any kind until the Federal Land Management Act (1976). At that point they went from relatively small bureau to an office with the singular distinction of bureau oversight being strictly limited to the Executive Branch. (In other words, no matter how idiotic BLM actions might be, Congress and the House have exactly zero oversight authority. That is authority is specifically reserved for the POTUS. If that doesn't scare you, nothing will.)
Since you seem bent on making the government the good guy, defend this one...
Homesteaded, deeded, taxes-current land target for seizure by the BLM.
http://intellihub.com/blm-threatens-henderson-ranch-texas-massive-land-grab/
Brad
The courts seem to disagree with you. Driving home the point about why folks need a real estate professional to advise them on stuff like this. And why going to represent yourself in federal court is unwise. In this case extremely so. I would love to find transcript of bundy in court
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How did Henderson lose his case? Back when.
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Don't know. Don't care. This is homesteaded, deed-recognized, taxes-current, privately-owned property. Go ahead and justify the BLM seizing it. I dare you.
As for what the courts have, or haven't said, about the Taylor Grazing act since it's passing, I honestly don't give a rat fart. The reasons for Agency establishment, and its authority as established at the time, are part of the chartering documents. How the courts later interpreted the Act is an irrelevancy with regard to the agency and it's authority as established at the time the Act was incepted.
Brad
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And that, boys and girls is how they do it.
The entire might and power of the fed.gov (along with the ability to make the law as you go along), against one, maybe a handful of folks.
And those that resist are "kooks and nuts", because it's all for the greater good comrade, those were dangerous individuals, wanting to stand up and threaten to shoot poor innocent LE officers who are only enforcing the law.
Dr. Ferris smiled. . . . . ."We've waited a long time to get something on you. You honest men are such a problem and such a headache. But we knew you'd slip sooner or later - and this is just what we wanted."
"You seem to be pleased about it."
"Don't I have good reason to be?"
"But, after all, I did break one of your laws."
"Well, what do you think they're for?"
Dr. Ferris did not notice the sudden look on Rearden's face, the look of a man hit by the first vision of that which he had sought to see. Dr. Ferris was past the stage of seeing; he was intent upon delivering the last blows to an animal caught in a trap.
"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now, that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
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A seemingly well cited summation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
The BLM stated on their website "Cattle have been in trespass on public lands in southern Nevada for more than two decades. This is unfair to the thousands of other ranchers who graze livestock in compliance with federal laws and regulations throughout the West. The Bureau of Land Management and the National Park Service have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially. An impoundment of cattle illegally grazing on public lands is now being conducted as a last resort."
An issue of "fairness"?
Currently there are no grazing permits on the Bunkerville allotment, and any livestock on that land are there illegally.
So the BLM shut out all legal grazing of this land? I'd note that I wouldn't want much invested in an industry that could be shut down by regulatory action alone -- however, like most of us, I'm sure I am in one. =|
This does smell very much like the arbitrary regulatory action taken by other agencies, EPA, ATF, DEA, etc.
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Don't know. Don't care. This is homesteaded, deed-recognized, taxes-current, privately-owned property. Go ahead and justify the BLM seizing it. I dare you.
As for what the courts have, or haven't said, about the Taylor Grazing act since it's passing, I honestly don't give a rat fart. The reasons for establishment, and their authority as it was established at the time, are part of the chartering documents. How the courts interpreted it at a later time is an irrelevancy with regard to what the facts where at the time of the act, and the agencies involved.
Brad
So your saying that public land should be open to whomever wants to use it for no matter what reason for however they want to us it, even if 50 different people want to use it for the same exact reason on the same location?
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I'm trying hard to remember your stance on farm subsidies...
I said that subsidies were enacted to create a guaranteed food supply. To guarantee a minimum price so that farmers/producers/planters will grow food.
Most of Nevada is not ideal perennial cattle country, Nebraska makes a lot more sense for grazing.
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So your saying that public land ...
Didn't bother read the linked story, did you?
Had you done so, you would know that it is a link to a separate story involving a BLM land grab of homesteaded, deed-recognized, taxes-current, privately-owned property. (Which, I believe, I mentioned as such in the sentence immediately prior to the link, and which shows up clearly in the quote you used. ... Yep, just checked. I did.)
Brad
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Didn't bother read the linked story, did you?
Or maybe the sentence right before the link.. "This is homesteaded, deed-recognized, taxes-current, privately-owned property"
Brad
This thread is about Bundy, the other thread is about Henderson. I side with the landowners in the other one since it is there land. I despise eminent domain and if someone/municipality/state/feds wants a particular piece of private land, they better be willing to make a cash offer that only a fool would turn down.
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Real estate law is tricky huh. particularly when boundaries are concerned. and moreso when boundary is defined by a natural feature that moves over time. We have a situation here where a Maryland family using a land grant that dates to the 1500's has claim along the potomac river "to that land that falls between the high and low waterline in Westmoreland county. Their claim absurd on the face of it has withstood legal challenges thus far.due in no small part to the fact that the affected land owners are in Virginia but the land in dispute comes under Maryland jurisdiction and thus Maryland courts. Its a large point of contention and has left msny waterfront property owners stuck with paying a premium to get full use of their land. They often claim the situation was misrepresented to them by their Realtors. Its make a good case for seeking real legal expert for legal opinions
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But very few took had to take off work.
As for those who stand up to gov't thuggery not being the nicest people you'd ever want to invite to your pajama party, no *expletive deleted*. If you have read anything about the dissidents in the communist countries you'd know that almost to a man they were right bastards. "Prickly" doesn't even begin to describe it. Nice folks don't stand up to gov't thuggery when everyone else submits. Nice folks worry about their kids and what their neighbors might think and then bow and scrape and work out the best deal they can. It takes a true egotist, willing to do nearly anything, to think he can beat the jackboots and to risk his family's well-being in the process.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375824/case-little-sedition-kevin-d-williamson
This times 1000. I thought this but couldn't think of a way to word it. Plus it seems to me that when you get to any "fringe" group, whether it be right or wrong, a large chunk of the people are probably going to be a little odd if not crazy simply because it is a group that goes against the majority.
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I suspect many are just followers. Caught up in the zomg of the day. And historically as soon as the revolution is over the new overlords purge the revolutionary ranks. Those are the dangerous folks
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Question: If Bundy is in violation of a court order, why haven't they gone after him, personally and made an arrest, instead of spending close to a million dollars rounding up his cattle and penning them? Has he evaded arrest for 20 years even with law enforcement knowing exactly where he was for all that time?
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Question: If Bundy is in violation of a court order, why haven't they gone after him, personally and made an arrest, instead of spending close to a million dollars rounding up his cattle and penning them? Has he evaded arrest for 20 years even with law enforcement knowing exactly where he was for all that time?
Just read the article that CS&D posted earlier. Not arrested but have tried peacefully with Bundy making threats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/
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the tldr syndrome makes it easier to buy into the zomg dujour.
much easier to pick a messiah and follow
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I'll ask again.
And even if, What "costs" does the BLM have for a bunch of scrub desert?
And why did they go far above what was the previously "reasonable" amount that Bundy had been paying before?
And why did we go from 53 families paying grazing fees in that area to just 1 ? That shows utter mismanagement. Instead of profit center, generatin revenue, it's now a cost center, that you, me, and everyone has to pay for the stand-off.
Because the .gov forced them out and off the land.
You want to say the .gov knows best how to manage the land. What utter and complete statist bullshit. The absolute worst uses and squandering of land came in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Look at China now. Those areas are ecological disaster areas. Look at land managed by our fed.gov. Practically every Military installation is a Super Fund site. The .gov knows how to manage land. Sure and they can cure poverty, lack of health insurance and heartbreak of psoriasis.
You can dance all around "the laws" and other bullshit Charby, but the simple fact is they said "Sure you can get a Concealed Carry Permit, but it's $20,000 per year, and you have to have your CLEO sign-off, plus explain why you need it, then there's a 180 waiting period, if you're approved."
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what was the increased rate scout?
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more tldr
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/
can't believe i am going here
http://www.christophercantwell.com/2014/04/10/5-things-bundy-ranch-teaches-us/
another
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/on-kilter-bundys-victim-mentality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U08CG6K0_-U
The day he decided to stop paying his grazing allotment fees required by law, (not imaginary law mind you, but real law passed by Congress and enforced by federal agency) he rendered his voice and any control he had over the destiny and use of the land irrelevant.
But worse than that, I think, is the horrific counsel he must have received from friends he must have had who, like now, did him no service whatsoever pontificating to the point of absurdity with value-laden language that, while it ratchets up the emotional sentiment of some people, sways courts or federal agencies not one bit.
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more tldr
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/
can't believe i am going here
http://www.christophercantwell.com/2014/04/10/5-things-bundy-ranch-teaches-us/
another
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/on-kilter-bundys-victim-mentality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U08CG6K0_-U
The day he decided to stop paying his grazing allotment fees required by law, (not imaginary law mind you, but real law passed by Congress and enforced by federal agency) he rendered his voice and any control he had over the destiny and use of the land irrelevant.
But worse than that, I think, is the horrific counsel he must have received from friends he must have had who, like now, did him no service whatsoever pontificating to the point of absurdity with value-laden language that, while it ratchets up the emotional sentiment of some people, sways courts or federal agencies not one bit.
Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees. If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.
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I'll ask again.
And why did they go far above what was the previously "reasonable" amount that Bundy had been paying before?
And why did we go from 53 families paying grazing fees in that area to just 1 ? That shows utter mismanagement. Instead of profit center, generatin revenue, it's now a cost center, that you, me, and everyone has to pay for the stand-off.
Because the .gov forced them out and off the land.
You want to say the .gov knows best how to manage the land. What utter and complete statist bullshit. The absolute worst uses and squandering of land came in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Look at China now. Those areas are ecological disaster areas. Look at land managed by our fed.gov. Practically every Military installation is a Super Fund site. The .gov knows how to manage land. Sure and they can cure poverty, lack of health insurance and heartbreak of psoriasis.
You can dance all around "the laws" and other bullshit Charby, but the simple fact is they said "Sure you can get a Concealed Carry Permit, but it's $20,000 per year, and you have to have your CLEO sign-off, plus explain why you need it, then there's a 180 waiting period, if you're approved."
Difference with China and USSR is very few people made the decisions and if you questioned them you were hauled off to a prison or executed. Superfund sites? How many were created by private companies here before Clean Air/Clean Water/EPA acts of the 1970s? Feds are guilty of many also, see many of our military installations.
Due to the environmental movements in the 1960's and the populace leaning really hard on the feds, currently I think the feds manage the land better than anyone else. Populace wanted multiuse not single use, and its changed more to sustainability and ecosystem management since the 1990's. Could you image if the land got turned over to Sierra Club to manage it, probably lock everyone out to preserve the range from harm. Nevada Rancher Org would probably boot all the recreation out and only cattle grazing. Ideals change and so does how public property is managed. If the majority felt otherwise things would have stayed the same as the bad old days.
This what grazing fees go to as per Taylor Grazing Act of 1934: 50% goes to range betterment projects, 37½% remains in the US Treasury, and 12½% is returned to the state.
Does the BLM need to be a bunch of jack booted thugs? No. Bundy also should have complied when he lost his ass in court numerous times.
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Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees. If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.
I'm going to help him out since it took me a little bit to find it
BLM's website http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
Federal Grazing Fee
The Federal grazing fee, which applies to Federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service, is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, as modified and extended by a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year’s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM, the same level as it was in 2013.
The Federal grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states. The figure is then adjusted each year according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production. In effect, the fee rises, falls, or stays the same based on market conditions, with livestock operators paying more when conditions are better and less when conditions have declined.
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Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees. If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.
i take that to mean you don't have a clue as to what the new "far above " rate was? don't feel too bad oddly enough even the bundies seem not to be able to name that amount. or do they just chose to be vague to keep the troops motivated?
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Actually I think the increased grazing fees is another falsehood in reporting looking at how AUM fees are figured.
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I'm going to help him out since it took me a little bit to find it
BLM's website http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
wow! they really gouged him! 1.23 to 1.35?! that 120 bucks!
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Actually I think the increased grazing fees is another falsehood in reporting looking at how AUM fees are figured.
a FALSEHOOD!
get thee behind me satan!
the bundy's and their disciples have been nothing but open and forthcoming from day one
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wow! they really gouged him! 1.23 to 1.35?! that 120 bucks!
Fee has been consistent at $1.35 since 1986. So the rancher pays $1.35 per month for 1 cow/1 calf, 1 horse, 5 sheep or 5 goats.
Another quick read on grazing fees
http://publiclandscouncil.org/CMDocs/PublicLandsCouncil/New%20Website/PLC%20Grazing%20Fee.pdf
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the noise about bundy paying the state instead was also less than truthful. or at least it was according to bundy's daughters statement on the truth about guns
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So Bundy has been running an average of 3086 cattle on public land for 20 years?
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the noise about bundy paying the state instead was also less than truthful. or at least it was according to bundy's daughters statement on the truth about guns
States also own grasslands in Western States that have fee grazing on them, so she could be telling the truth on that. Goes back to the land grant block system when the states were getting settled. Some states sold land to pay for infrastructure and some states retained the lands because they didn't need the money, Montana is a good example if a state that retained its land grants.
Iowa sold all of her land grants to pay for schools in each township, dig drainage ditches and establish roads.
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So Bundy has been running an average of 3086 cattle on public land for 20 years?
Compounding interest and late fees? :rofl:
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You two should go ahead and sign up. Seems you're hell-bent on empowering them even more so why not make a career of it?
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs.3.html
Brad
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Replace King George with any randomly selected colonist. Makes as much sense.
Using your rational: Okay lets give all the land back to the Natives and everyone go back to your ancestor's home land.
Uh, no; his "rational," or rationale, was that comparing governments to private citizens is a bit silly, in this case.
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You two should go ahead and sign up. Seems you're hell-bent on empowering them even more so why not make a career of it?
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs.3.html
Brad
Maybe I will
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs/our_careers/careers_in_demand/careers_in_demand4.html
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You two should go ahead and sign up. Seems you're hell-bent on empowering them even more so why not make a career of it?
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs.3.html
Brad
no thanks never worked for the gov, but if i did i think the hypocrisy of suckling from the teat i role play despising would choke me. ymmv
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Compounding interest and late fees? :rofl:
plus hes lost 2 federal suits. do you wear legals fees for that? at least he saved on his end by representing himself. others could profit from his example
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13 pages and nothing but a personal-attack-bitch-fest. We're done here folks.
Chris