This could get Interesting

[charby]

Didn't bother read the linked story, did you? 

Or maybe the sentence right before the link.. "This is homesteaded, deed-recognized, taxes-current, privately-owned property"

Brad

This thread is about Bundy, the other thread is about Henderson. I side with the landowners in the other one since it is there land. I despise eminent domain and if someone/municipality/state/feds wants a particular piece of private land, they better be willing to make a cash offer that only a fool would turn down.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Real estate law is tricky huh. particularly when boundaries are concerned.  and moreso when boundary is defined by a natural feature that moves over time. We have a situation here where a Maryland family using a land grant that dates to the 1500's has claim along the potomac river "to that land that falls between the high and low waterline in Westmoreland county. Their claim absurd on the face of it has withstood legal challenges thus far.due in no small part to the fact that the affected land owners are in Virginia but the land in dispute comes under Maryland jurisdiction and thus Maryland courts. Its a large point of contention and has left msny waterfront property owners stuck with paying a premium to get full use of their land. They often claim the situation was misrepresented to them by their Realtors.  Its make a good case for seeking  real legal expert for legal opinions

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[freakazoid]

But very few took had to take off work.


As for those who stand up to gov't thuggery not being the nicest people you'd ever want to invite to your pajama party, no *expletive deleted*.  If you have read anything about the dissidents in the communist countries you'd know that almost to a man they were right bastards.  "Prickly" doesn't even begin to describe it.  Nice folks don't stand up to gov't thuggery when everyone else submits.  Nice folks worry about their kids and what their neighbors might think and then bow and scrape and work out the best deal they can.  It takes a true egotist, willing to do nearly anything, to think he can beat the jackboots and to risk his family's well-being in the process.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375824/case-little-sedition-kevin-d-williamson

This times 1000. I thought this but couldn't think of a way to word it. Plus it seems to me that when you get to any "fringe" group, whether it be right or wrong, a large chunk of the people are probably going to be a little odd if not crazy simply because it is a group that goes against the majority.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I suspect many are just followers.  Caught up in the zomg of the day. And historically as soon as the revolution is over the new overlords purge the revolutionary ranks. Those are the dangerous folks

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[Nick1911]

Question:  If Bundy is in violation of a court order, why haven't they gone after him, personally and made an arrest, instead of spending close to a million dollars rounding up his cattle and penning them?  Has he evaded arrest for 20 years even with law enforcement knowing exactly where he was for all that time?

[charby]

Question:  If Bundy is in violation of a court order, why haven't they gone after him, personally and made an arrest, instead of spending close to a million dollars rounding up his cattle and penning them?  Has he evaded arrest for 20 years even with law enforcement knowing exactly where he was for all that time?

Just read the article that CS&D posted earlier. Not arrested but have tried peacefully with Bundy making threats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the tldr syndrome makes it easier to buy into the zomg dujour.
much easier to pick a messiah and follow

[Scout26]

I'll ask again.

And even if,  What "costs" does the BLM have for a bunch of scrub desert?

And why did they go far above what was the previously "reasonable" amount that Bundy had been paying before?

And why did we go from 53 families paying grazing fees in that area to just 1 ?  That shows utter mismanagement.  Instead of profit center, generatin revenue, it's now a cost center, that you, me, and everyone has to pay for the stand-off.

Because the .gov forced them out and off the land.    

You want to say the .gov knows best how to manage the land.   What utter and complete statist bullshit.  The absolute worst uses and squandering of land came in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.  Look at China now.   Those areas are ecological disaster areas.  Look at land managed by our fed.gov.  Practically every Military installation is a Super Fund site.  The .gov knows how to manage land.  Sure and they can cure poverty, lack of health insurance and heartbreak of psoriasis.

You can dance all around "the laws" and other bullshit Charby, but the simple fact is they said "Sure you can get a Concealed Carry Permit, but it's $20,000 per year, and you have to have your CLEO sign-off, plus explain why you need it, then there's a 180 waiting period, if you're approved."  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

what was the increased rate scout?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

more tldr
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/


can't believe i am going here
http://www.christophercantwell.com/2014/04/10/5-things-bundy-ranch-teaches-us/



another
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/on-kilter-bundys-victim-mentality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U08CG6K0_-U
The day he decided to stop paying his grazing allotment fees required by law, (not imaginary law mind you, but real law passed by Congress and enforced by federal agency) he rendered his voice and any control he had over the destiny and use of the land irrelevant.

But worse than that, I think, is the horrific counsel he must have received from friends he must have had who, like now, did him no service whatsoever pontificating to the point of absurdity with value-laden language that, while it ratchets up the emotional sentiment of some people, sways courts or federal agencies not one bit.

[Scout26]

more tldr
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/


can't believe i am going here
http://www.christophercantwell.com/2014/04/10/5-things-bundy-ranch-teaches-us/



another
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/on-kilter-bundys-victim-mentality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U08CG6K0_-U
The day he decided to stop paying his grazing allotment fees required by law, (not imaginary law mind you, but real law passed by Congress and enforced by federal agency) he rendered his voice and any control he had over the destiny and use of the land irrelevant.

But worse than that, I think, is the horrific counsel he must have received from friends he must have had who, like now, did him no service whatsoever pontificating to the point of absurdity with value-laden language that, while it ratchets up the emotional sentiment of some people, sways courts or federal agencies not one bit.

Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees.  If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.

[charby]

I'll ask again.

And why did they go far above what was the previously "reasonable" amount that Bundy had been paying before?

And why did we go from 53 families paying grazing fees in that area to just 1 ?  That shows utter mismanagement.  Instead of profit center, generatin revenue, it's now a cost center, that you, me, and everyone has to pay for the stand-off.

Because the .gov forced them out and off the land.    

You want to say the .gov knows best how to manage the land.   What utter and complete statist bullshit.  The absolute worst uses and squandering of land came in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.  Look at China now.   Those areas are ecological disaster areas.  Look at land managed by our fed.gov.  Practically every Military installation is a Super Fund site.  The .gov knows how to manage land.  Sure and they can cure poverty, lack of health insurance and heartbreak of psoriasis.

You can dance all around "the laws" and other bullshit Charby, but the simple fact is they said "Sure you can get a Concealed Carry Permit, but it's $20,000 per year, and you have to have your CLEO sign-off, plus explain why you need it, then there's a 180 waiting period, if you're approved."  

Difference with China and USSR is very few people made the decisions and if you questioned them you were hauled off to a prison or executed. Superfund sites? How many were created by private companies here before Clean Air/Clean Water/EPA acts of the 1970s? Feds are guilty of many also, see many of our military installations.

Due to the environmental movements in the 1960's and the populace leaning really hard on the feds, currently I think the feds manage the land better than anyone else. Populace wanted multiuse not single use, and its changed more to sustainability and ecosystem management since the 1990's. Could you image if the land got turned over to Sierra Club to manage it, probably lock everyone out to preserve the range from harm. Nevada Rancher Org would probably boot all the recreation out and only cattle grazing. Ideals change and so does how public property is managed. If the majority felt otherwise things would have stayed the same as the bad old days.

This what grazing fees go to as per Taylor Grazing Act of 1934:  50% goes to range betterment projects, 37½% remains in the US Treasury, and 12½% is returned to the state.

Does the BLM need to be a bunch of jack booted thugs? No. Bundy also should have complied when he lost his ass in court numerous times.

[charby]

Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees.  If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.

I'm going to help him out since it took me a little bit to find it

BLM's website http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

Federal Grazing Fee

The Federal grazing fee, which applies to Federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service, is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, as modified and extended by a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year’s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM, the same level as it was in 2013.

The Federal grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states. The figure is then adjusted each year according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production.  In effect, the fee rises, falls, or stays the same based on market conditions, with livestock operators paying more when conditions are better and less when conditions have declined.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Quote chapter and verse in the US Code (not the Federal Register) of the law that increased his grazing fees.  If you can't, then you are cordially invited to STFU in this thread.

i take that to mean you don't have a clue as to what the new "far above " rate was?   don't feel too bad  oddly enough even the bundies seem not to be able to name that amount.  or do they just chose to be vague to keep the troops motivated?

[charby]

Actually I think the increased grazing fees is another falsehood in reporting looking at how AUM fees are figured.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I'm going to help him out since it took me a little bit to find it

BLM's website http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

wow!  they really gouged him!  1.23 to 1.35?!    that 120 bucks!

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Actually I think the increased grazing fees is another falsehood in reporting looking at how AUM fees are figured.

a FALSEHOOD!
get thee behind me satan!
the bundy's and their disciples have been nothing but open and forthcoming from day one

[charby]

wow!  they really gouged him!  1.23 to 1.35?!    that 120 bucks!

Fee has been consistent at $1.35 since 1986. So the rancher pays $1.35 per month for 1 cow/1 calf, 1 horse, 5 sheep or 5 goats.

Another quick read on grazing fees

http://publiclandscouncil.org/CMDocs/PublicLandsCouncil/New%20Website/PLC%20Grazing%20Fee.pdf

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the noise about bundy paying the state instead was also less than truthful.  or at least it was according to bundy's daughters statement on the truth about guns

[Nick1911]

So Bundy has been running an average of 3086 cattle on public land for 20 years?

[charby]

the noise about bundy paying the state instead was also less than truthful.  or at least it was according to bundy's daughters statement on the truth about guns

States also own grasslands in Western States that have fee grazing on them, so she could be telling the truth on that. Goes back to the land grant block system when the states were getting settled. Some states sold land to pay for infrastructure and some states retained the lands because they didn't need the money, Montana is a good example if a state that retained its land grants.

Iowa sold all of her land grants to pay for schools in each township, dig drainage ditches and establish roads.

[charby]

So Bundy has been running an average of 3086 cattle on public land for 20 years?

Compounding interest and late fees? 

[Brad Johnson]

You two should go ahead and sign up.  Seems you're hell-bent on empowering them even more so why not make a career of it?

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs.3.html

Brad

[Perd Hapley]

Replace King George with any randomly selected colonist.  Makes as much sense. 

Using your rational: Okay lets give all the land back to the Natives and everyone go back to your ancestor's home land.

Uh, no; his "rational," or rationale, was that comparing governments to private citizens is a bit silly, in this case.

[charby]

You two should go ahead and sign up.  Seems you're hell-bent on empowering them even more so why not make a career of it?

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs.3.html

Brad

Maybe I will

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/blm_jobs/our_careers/careers_in_demand/careers_in_demand4.html