Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RadioFreeSeaLab on November 06, 2008, 07:06:11 PM
-
Yes, www.change.gov is real. Office of the President-elect. Enjoy everyone.
-
# Address Gun Violence in Cities: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.
From "urban Policy." It's the liberal wet dream platform. So much for ASHA and their "Obama is the gunowner's friend" tripe.
Lots of other really fun stuff in there, still digging. Can we have the 2010 elections early?
-
They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.
GRRRRRRR
-
Is anyone really surprised at all?
They can go ahead and try. 2010 will be 1994 again.
That whole document is a trainwreck.
Increase the Supply of Affordable Housing throughout Metropolitan Regions: Communities prosper when all families have access to affordable housing. Barack Obama and Joe Biden supported efforts to create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund to create thousands of new units of affordable housing every year. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will also restore cuts to public housing operating subsidies, and ensure that all Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) programs are restored to their original purpose.
HAY GUYS LET'S TRY PROJECTS AGAIN IT WON'T FAIL THIS TIME ALL OVER AGAIN!!!
-
Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service.
Thats $40 per hour...
Can it be retroactive for current student loans. I'll work 100 hours to have 4k paid off.
-
Within a day of being elected, our new President has a website that, in part, states his support for a new and expanded AWB.
It's going to be a great 4-8 years. :rolleyes:
-
I'm thinking we're screwed. This is not going to be pleasant.
-
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.
Compulsory education just got more compulsory. How to enforce on private and home school elitist children?
-
Compulsory education just got more compulsory. How to enforce on private and home school elitist children?
Ban home schooling? Threaten parents that their children will be taken away by social services if they try it?
-
I am scared.
What are the chances of us fighting off another AWB?
-
Compulsory labor for all of the children? Is this guy serious?
-
I am scared.
What are the chances of us fighting off another AWB?
Slim and none? It would be a political kamikaze on their part, but you cannot dissuade True Believers...
Of course, they could also get away with it just like Frank and Schumer got away with the housing debacle, if the remaining Republicans nearsightedly flail and fail to catch an easy lob tossed their way...as they have repeatedly.
-
Yeesh.
-
Within a day of being elected, our new President has a website that, in part, states his support for a new and expanded AWB.
It's going to be a great 4-8 years. :rolleyes:
Bush went on the TV and said he'd sign the AWB if it his his desk in 2003. Granted, that was with a Republican controlled Congress, and he knew it wouldn't ever happen, but he was saying pretty much the same thing as Obama is.
When the Democrats took control of Congress in 2006 they still couldn't pass one, even with a president that said he's sign it.
McCain wants to close the "gun show loophole" too. He said it at the NRA convention this year.
Now, the Democrats picked up more seats in the House and Senate in this election, but they could very well still not have the votes to get one through.
Are we in danger of another AWB? Yes, but not much more than we were for the last two years.
-
I found proof the world is going to end. No, not on change.gov, they'll get that on there tomorrow. On here! Yet another thread got moved into Political!
-
I have to agree with Giga on something. Yes the Dems picked up some extra seats in both the House and Senate. But I would give you even odds that the seats that they picked up were more conservative Dems and would be against anymore gun laws.
-
Let's see what the run down on Urban policy is.
http://www.change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy/ (http://www.change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy/)
Create an Office of Urban Policy
Another low income housing project
Throwing more money at No Child Left Behind
$200 million in planning grants
Doubling federal funding for basic research
More money for training programs
Women and minority owned business grants and favorable loans
$250 million per year for venture capitalists
Manditory manufacturing overhauls to make our decreasing manufacturing base more green
$35 billion per year into infrastructure
More money into public transportation
'Green' jobs for low income workers
Re-creating the subprime market
More money to low income housing
raise the minimum wage to $9.50 (plus potential 'living wage')
More money to low income families (earned income tax credits)
$1 billion to low income workers
More money to public transportation
More taxing on superfund polluters
Manditory building codes tightening for energy efficiency
More money to low income housing
More money to poor quality schools or teachers
$10 billion to preschool activities
More money to low income schools
More money to local police, with strings of 'address police brutality and accountability issues'
More money to prison work programs
More money to high crime neighborhoods
Banning all EBR's
Banning racial profiling and smacking police if they do not spend tickets across all ethnic groups
More money to homeland security
More money to emergency services
More money to interoperable communications systems (this one I actually approve of)
More money to public transportation
More money to low income families
More money to single mothers
More money to low-income, first-time mothers
More money to afterschool programs
More money to low income families
Capping payday loan rates
Creating a subprime payday loan market
This is only one of 24 topics, plus a 'misc' catagory.
-
Well that was just a steaming hot cup of rage.
-
Dang RevDisk, I'll bet G.W. is mad he won't be the one to get to sign all that spending legislation.
-
More fun, I'm pretty sure we just lost another war to insurgents. This makes us what, 0 for 2 against an insurgancy now.
Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in. Immediately upon taking office, Obama will give his Secretary of Defense and military commanders a new mission in Iraq: ending the war. The removal of our troops will be responsible and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government. Military experts believe we can safely redeploy combat brigades from Iraq at a pace of 1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 – more than 7 years after the war began.
-
Arbeit macht frei, Kameraden.
And don't forget the Brown Shirts, er, "civilian national security force".
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69601
-
Are we in danger of another AWB? Yes, but not much more than we were for the last two years.
Gun control is no longer the third rail of American politics. Those that claim it is are whistling past the graveyard.
The Democrats will be in firm control of both branches of Congress. There will be a avowed gun grabber Socialist in the White House. None of them will remember the consequences of their earlier mistakes. They will offer up an Assault Weapons ban bill to The One. He will sign it. We are in serious trouble.
-
They will offer up an Assault Weapons ban bill to The One. He will sign it. We are in serious trouble.
Absolutely true.
-
Obama will give his Secretary of Defense and military commanders a new mission in Iraq: ending the war.
What a quaint idea. Oh how I long for the days when our politicians yearned for extending wars!
You know what? I can't even respond in satire.
I'm not going to research this one tonight, so I might be wrong as I'm just going from memory, and feel free to dog-pile on me if I am wrong, but a Republican was in office at the end of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I. Democrats were in control of the Oval Office when we got involved in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. The Bush family is rather unique as Republicans go in actually starting a war during their watch. The only other Republican president to hold office when a war broke out was Abraham Lincoln. I'm ignoring Reagan and Grenada intentionally because I have a hard time calling that a war. Waco was more of a war than that incident.
When did Republican supporters start thinking along the lines that wars are good? It's a rhetorical question as I know the answer is somewhere between 2001-2004 but I continue to be amazed that Republican supporters think this nonsense is a good idea.
I don't get it. I honestly don't.
-
War isin't good. Actually being here sucks pretty bad. But if you read the entire sectio I quoted you'll find this little gem at the bottom:
1 to 2 brigades a month that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010
Let me throw some facts at you here.
Iraq WILL NOT have a stable gov in 2010.
If we leave then Iraq WILL devolve into a civil war. Now in addition to the millions of people that will kill, it will leave Iraq open to invasion by it's neighbors. Can anyone think of a nation near Iraq that already doesn't like it AND is having budget issues because of cheap oil? Maybe a nation that wouldn't mind more oilfields? Anyone? Bueller? In addition to turning Baghdad into a Mogadishu-esque hell hole (perfect for raising desperate suicide bombers) the oncoming Iraqi civil war will affect worldwide oil prices by disrupting the oil supply from the mideast and may very well make Iseral nervous enough to do something preemptive. (that' will deped on which of the vultures on Iraq's border decide to eat first)
All of this our soon to be CinC would already know if he haden't spent his 1 (!) visit to the theater shooting basketball on Arifjan and sipping tea in the IZ. But hey, he already had his platform when he came here and was too busy to talk to the folks on the ground here, we might have messed up his plan.
So by all means, lets end the war. As much fun as the multiple deployment extra leave is, and I love getting knock off DVD's for cheap I'd like to go home and see my wife. But lets try to end it in a way that doesn'tinvolve me having to come back in 4 years to open a ne theater and play with an actual occyping force, shall we?
I'm not attacking him because he wants to end the war, I'm attacking him because he read the introduction to a bad translation of Von Clauswitz and thinks he's a Stratigic genius now.
-
"I'm not going to research this one tonight, so I might be wrong as I'm just going from memory, and feel free to dog-pile on me if I am wrong, but a Republican was in office at the end of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I."
WW I - Wrong. Woodrow Wilson. Democrat.
WW II - Wrong. Harry Truman. Democrat.
-
"I'm not going to research this one tonight, so I might be wrong as I'm just going from memory, and feel free to dog-pile on me if I am wrong, but a Republican was in office at the end of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I."
WW I - Wrong. Woodrow Wilson. Democrat.
WW II - Wrong. Harry Truman. Democrat.
Oddly enough, a democrat was also in office at the start of those, with the exceptions of Gulf War I and Korea....
-
Sort of.
America's first incursions into Vietnam came in the Eisenhower administration in the form of military and financial aid for the French. At the time of Dienbienphu, the US was paying nearly 80% of France's war budget.
The first American advisers went to Vietnam in the middle 1950s.
-
When did Republican supporters start thinking along the lines that wars are good? It's a rhetorical question as I know the answer is somewhere between 2001-2004 but I continue to be amazed that Republican supporters think this nonsense is a good idea.
Somehow, the Republicans changed from the party of the constitution, low taxes, and limited government to the party of big government, pro-illegal immigration, low taxes, and blowing up Arabs.
May've been G.W. Bush's doing. He needed something to resonate with Americans. He'd cut taxes, sure - and that was about it. Support the troops = support the war = conservatism. So the Republicans became the Party of the Iraq War. As support for the war dropped, so did GOP majorities in congress. They were a one-issue party, and the public didn't like that issue any more.
-
If we leave then Iraq WILL devolve into a civil war
Is there any proof of that prediction of yours?
Remember American troops ALREADY left Al Anbar and most of the cities.
-
Are we in danger of another AWB? Yes, but not much more than we were for the last two years.
The fact that the Dems picked up more seats is sufficient in and of itself to put us in a far worse position than the last two years. The fact that the entire federal leadership is now adamantly anti-gun puts in the worst position we have been in terms of the RKBA in history.
-
The fact that the Dems picked up more seats is sufficient in and of itself to put us in a far worse position than the last two years. The fact that the entire federal leadership is now adamantly anti-gun puts in the worst position we have been in terms of the RKBA in history.
Just ignore GigaBuist, I think he voted for the messiah.
-
Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.
Isn't community service something given to convicted criminals?
What will the kids be called - Obama Youth (Obamajugend?) Young Pioneers?
This puts me in mind of a quote by Ayn Rand:
It stands to reason that where there is sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there is service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.
-
Wow.... AWB II is going to be real.
I only hope that it:
- Doesn't include all semi-autos
- Has a grandfather clause.
Actually, maybe it shouldn't have a grandfather clause. They are bound to push the RKBA community over the edge eventually - perhaps it's better if it's in one fell swoop? Maybe after we're all criminals for mere possession of a once-legal object Obama will see some CHANGE!
North Ireland; PIRA style change, that is.
-
Wow.... AWB II is going to be real.
I only hope that it:
- Doesn't include all semi-autos
- Has a grandfather clause.
Actually, maybe it shouldn't have a grandfather clause. They are bound to push the RKBA community over the edge eventually - perhaps it's better if it's in one fell swoop? Maybe after we're all criminals for mere possession of a once-legal object Obama will see some CHANGE!
North Ireland; PIRA style change, that is.
No. People will turn them in.
Let's see. They can either get out of a hot shower, enjoy a gourmet meal with their family in a climate-controlled house, watch a football game in HD, then go out to their new SUV and...go off to an armed revolt and lose all of that for themselves and their family in the immediate reprisal, or....
...turn in their rifles and keep all of the former.
Which do you think it's going to be?
-
No. People will turn them in.
Let's see. They can either get out of a hot shower, enjoy a gourmet meal with their family in a climate-controlled house, watch a football game in HD, then go out to their new SUV and...go off to an armed revolt and lose all of that for themselves and their family in the immediate reprisal, or....
...turn in their rifles and keep all of the former.
Which do you think it's going to be?
Truism.
95% will turn them in. 5% will bury, hide, or sell em on the black market.
And, life will, by and large, go on. The change will become the new normal, like NFA 1934, GCA 1968 and FOPA 1986.
Time to find a new hobby, eh, Mand?
-
Truism.
95% will turn them in. 5% will bury, hide, or sell em on the black market.
And, life will, by and large, go on. The change will become the new normal, like NFA 1934, GCA 1968 and FOPA 1986.
Time to find a new hobby, eh, Mand?
What hobby?
I don't have any guns.
-
Truism.
95% will turn them in. 5% will bury, hide, or sell em on the black market.
And, life will, by and large, go on. The change will become the new normal, like NFA 1934, GCA 1968 and FOPA 1986.
Time to find a new hobby, eh, Mand?
If we are already accepting it before it's proposed then 1) we guarantee it'll happen, 2) we deserve it, and 3) we should volunatirly give up the identity of citizens and become serfs, as that's what we are in our hearts.
-
Just ignore GigaBuist, I think he voted for the messiah.
You would be mistaken, unless you're referring to Chuck Baldwin as the messiah.
WW I - Wrong. Woodrow Wilson. Democrat.
WW II - Wrong. Harry Truman. Democrat.
Damnit. I knew that was going to happen.
-
If we are already accepting it before it's proposed then 1) we guarantee it'll happen, 2) we deserve it, and 3) we should volunatirly give up the identity of citizens and become serfs, as that's what we are in our hearts.
Mand has a point though. Things aren't nearly bad enough here for and significant portion of the RKBA following to take up arms. Not even close. Not by a long shot.
-
What hobby?
I don't have any guns.
Welcome to the 5% club!
Our club is formed of people who use to own guns, but have now seen the light of reason and believe that all of societies crime problems stem from the legal, private ownership of firearms.
"What's that officer? No, I don't have those anymore - after the presidents charismatic and enlightening speech about how privately owned arms are causing inner city crime problems, I promptly used the abrasive chop saw in the garage to whack up all the guns, then threw them out in last weeks trash."
-
Things aren't nearly bad enough here for and significant portion of the RKBA following to take up arms. Not even close. Not by a long shot.
This is the case if it not your ox being gored.
Anygunanywhere
-
I have to agree with Giga on something. Yes the Dems picked up some extra seats in both the House and Senate. But I would give you even odds that the seats that they picked up were more conservative Dems and would be against anymore gun laws.
And many of the sets picked up in 2006 went conservative to moderate democrats.
Also, remember that politicians care most about staying in office. If they feel that an AWB threatens those chances they will at the very least think twice.
-
And many of the sets picked up in 2006 went conservative to moderate democrats.
Also, remember that politicians care most about staying in office. If they feel that an AWB threatens those chances they will at the very least think twice.
Again. True Believers. And most of the "pro-2A" dems are FUDDs.
If they can wage an ad campaign that AKs are evil and should be "off the streets", and if the Republicans fumble the ball completely...again...they'll do it.
-
Things aren't nearly bad enough here for and significant portion of the RKBA following to take up arms. Not even close. Not by a long shot.
What is it with people and 'taking up arms'?
Seriously.
Have you considered protests? Hunger strikes? Peaceful noncompliance?
I don't see why there needs to be a dichotomy of "taking up arms OR working within the system" and that's it.
-
Have you considered protests? Hunger strikes? Peaceful noncompliance?
Liberal media. Not carried on nooz, page 26 one sentence in print.
Only thing that works is wearing a suit and fighting in court.
-
Liberal media. Not carried on nooz, page 26 one sentence in print.
Then you must come up with an effective form of protest. More hell. Less corn.
Certainly beats doing nothing.
Only thing that works is wearing a suit and fighting in court.
Obama will soon be appointing judges.
Silveira wore a suit, did he not?
-
Is there any proof of that prediction of yours?
Remember American troops ALREADY left Al Anbar and most of the cities.
Sure. My crystal balls.
Realistically, the chances of a civil war are extremely good.
You have a separatist group in the North (the Kurds), you have two dominant religious factions that haven't liked each other for close to 1,000 years, and you have the incredible oil wealth of the nation.
In years past the only thing that held an all out civil war at bay was Saddam's ruthlessness and consolidation of power.
The same was true in Yugoslavia with Tito. Once he was gone, it wasn't long before Yugoslavia went into full-blown civil war mode.
-
Is there any proof of that prediction of yours?
Looks like Mr. Irwin beat me to it, but,
Umm... No that's why it's a prediction. Although I'll admit I did state is as fact. That's wht I get for typing with my dander up. I think the history of the region, plus the presance of multiple, violent seperatist factions can safely be predicted to lead to civil war once the stabalizing influance has removed prematurely.
-
Has anyone else noticed that the Agenda link at change.gov no longer lists the specifics.
Chris
-
what is this fear of community service for kids? as someone who has lived with it and seen it in real life i found much good to it, unlike the fevered imaginings of some folks.
-
That would be the compulsory part plus the federal government part. If Ms. Jones' Civics class wants to do community service and everyone brings in a signed permission slip then that's fine. Federal gov't tells you to, not so fine. Right behind the ATF and the IRS, the Dept of Education is a building that should be vacant in DC. Since when is anything to do with education within the Federal Government's purview?
-
Has anyone else noticed that the Agenda link at change.gov no longer lists the specifics.
Chris
Yes, I see. Anyone save the page?
-
Another one down the memory hole.
-
what is this fear of community service for kids? as someone who has lived with it and seen it in real life i found much good to it, unlike the fevered imaginings of some folks.
It's slavery lite, so to speak.
It's forcing you to give up a portion of your life that could be spent elsewhere.
It's not "fevered imaginations"...it's called the truth. Forced "community service" is involuntary servitude.
I have a big problem with that. I don't give a damn about the "less fortunate" and I will not be forced to help them through "community service" forced upon me by the government. I already pay taxes. Get off my back.
If this plan is implemented, I will drop out of college.
If the plan is extended to the general population and not as a condition of attending college/ public school, I will resist. I aim to misbehave.
-
Yes, I see. Anyone save the page?
http://www.youshare.com/Guest/a54240bed3fee607.pdf.html
If anyone has a better host let me know. I happened to leave that page opened in a web browser and printed it to a PDF when I noticed the page was gone off the server.
-
Good work!
Can't stop the signal...
-
I need to find the whole page. The Google cache had the sub-categories but when you click on them it told you the page wasn't available.
-
what is this fear of community service for kids? as someone who has lived with it and seen it in real life i found much good to it, unlike the fevered imaginings of some folks.
It's not the good of community service that matters. It's the idea that the Federal Government is forcing servitude on people.
-
Yes, I see. Anyone save the page?
I heard about that on the radio today....vedy interesting, ja?
-
I need to find the whole page. The Google cache had the sub-categories but when you click on them it told you the page wasn't available.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7852901/Urban-Policy-Change
-
what is this fear of community service for kids? as someone who has lived with it and seen it in real life i found much good to it, unlike the fevered imaginings of some folks.
What is the service being ordered? Cleaning up trash or volunteering to register Democratic voters? Going to a retirement community or being window dressing for a "ban the guns for the children" rally?
I've done community service as well. It was performed with the sole agenda of helping individuals in need. I do not trust the government to have similarly pure motives because 1) I know this is far too good an opportunity for indoctrination to pass up and 2) history teaches us that those who might abuse this will.
-
Good work!
Can't stop the signal...
I keep reminding people that the guy who said that was immediately run through with a sword.
-
I keep reminding people that the guy who said that was immediately run through with a sword.
True. Didn't stop the signal though, did it?
-
It's not the good of community service that matters. It's the idea that the Federal Government is forcing servitude on people.
i've never seen the feds force anyone. but i've seen some schools require it and the effect/result i saw was good. granted this was in real life and that does tend to foul up the outrage. montgomery county md tried it same good result till some of the elitist parents sued. same folks who sued the power company after issabel. their power was out cause the trees they sued to save fell on the power lines
-
Nothing "fevered" about it. I'll sue, too, if Obama et alia try to force some sort of lame-assed community service on my family.
If I got a DUI or didn't pay child support and got caught, sure, then I owe the community some trash pickup time, or worse.
My government, however, will not mandate I do it, and I guarantee that such a grandiose scheme won't come to fruition if those of us holding our freedoms dear have any say in the matter.
All Obama has to do is call it something cute like "Americorps", and get starry-eyed believers to do it of their own volition. No need to mandate community service, short of some Socialist goal of his...
-
the programs that i saw implemented required a kid to put in an hour a month. horrific things like going to an old folks home reading to the old folks. or tutoring younger kids. interestingly enough the kids got into it. and the school it workd bst at was sidwell friends. never saw any bad come of it never heard a kid whine just the parents. and usually about what an imposition it was to have to take junior
-
can someone point to a negative experience? in real life? i hate to impose that kinda limitation
-
I'm not so sure you understand what you're advocating, C&SD.
We all sang Christmas hymns at nursing homes as schoolkids. That's part of the whole parochial school experience, and it was damned educational, because now I'd rather have a bullet in my head than sit there in a wheelchair waiting for a nurse to change my Depends.
However, you don't want mandatory conscription in some social experiment forced upon you by the FedGov. Well, maybe you do, but I sure's hell don't.
What if you didn't want to do said service? Could you opt out without repercussion or gulag time? Would your name go on a list? Would it be like jury duty? Would it be something cool, like taking a PETA believer on a deer hunt? Would you be changing diapers on an old guy in a nursing home?
Again, be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. =|
-
It always starts with Good Intentions.
It's up to each of us to change ourselves; we don't need elected officials to offer us "Transcendence."
Read to kids? But WHAT are you reading them? We all used to think public education was harmless too Once Upon A Time. Maybe we're starting to realize it wasn't so innocuous after all?
-
i don't know about those scenarios you imagined. again in the real world the kids i saw could chose from a pretty wide list of suggestions as well as had the option of choseing their own form of service. some picked things that would qualify as an eagle scout project. pretty subversive stuff. again i am limited by what i saw in montgomery county before the whining parents fixed things, your imagination may vary.
jerking the me generation away from being totally self absorbed isn't a bad thing
-
"Read to kids? But WHAT are you reading them? We all used to think public education was harmless too Once Upon A Time. Maybe we're starting to realize it wasn't so innocuous after all?"
they were tutoring the kids and quit often the reading at the old folks home was real subversive. imagine a teenager reading the bible to an older person who can't any longer. the horror overwhelms me even today when i think back on it. the brainwashing of the kids was so insidious that some of em kept up their evil activity even after the parents sued the blight away.
-
jerking the me generation away from being totally self absorbed isn't a bad thing
Bottom line: That is my job, not the govt's.
Chris
-
I'd be one of those whining parents too, if what they wanted my kid to do rubbed me the wrong way. However, that's a school program, not a federal, nation-wide program. There is a difference, and a dangerous one at that.
There are so many gullible people in this country, who could easily be duped into doing whatever the next administration wants them to do under the guise of "Change" and "Community Service". They'll do it for The Chosen One, no questions asked, and no indulgences even need be sold.
Let them carry the torch. They neither need nor deserve Constitutional protection from mandatory FedGov conscription or whatever else it is that the administration wants to call it.
"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions..."
-
Bottom line: That is my job, not the govt's.
Chris
i agree and i am sure you do
so if the schools there made community service part of their program would you be opposed?in my case/experience i would think of it as upgrading the behavior of the kids my heathen were rubbing elbows with. cause i can assure you that many other parents aren't doing anything to disabuse lil jane and johnny of the idea that they are the center of the universe. then again i liked prayer in school too
-
i agree and i am sure you do
so if the schools there made community service part of their program would you be opposed?in my case/experience i would think of it as upgrading the behavior of the kids my heathen were rubbing elbows with. cause i can assure you that many other parents aren't doing anything to disabuse lil jane and johnny of the idea that they are the center of the universe. then again i liked prayer in school too
If they facilitated volunteering and it wasn't a requirement, I'd support it. If they wanted to make it a requirement for graduation, I would oppose it.
School budgets are stretched thin as it is. I'd rather all school resources go towards education.
Chris
-
that was one of the neat things. high school kids tutor middle school kids middle school kids tutor grade school kids. kids learn about helping schools get extra support. hard as it is to imagine they actually had something that worked. then they got threatened with lawsuits. sidwell friends school has always had a community service requirement. as far as i know still does. the benifits can be myraid. the downside mostly imaginary
-
i've never seen the feds force anyone. but i've seen some schools require it and the effect/result i saw was good. granted this was in real life and that does tend to foul up the outrage. montgomery county md tried it same good result till some of the elitist parents sued. same folks who sued the power company after issabel. their power was out cause the trees they sued to save fell on the power lines
What if the feds make the schools and universities run the mandatory service and require it for graduation?
Of course the vast number of dropouts will have to be dealt with in some other way.
So will the home schoolers.
I'll work on this a bit.
Anygunanywhere
-
its been a requirement for graduation at sidwell friends for decades. the horror. and it was for its short lived life in montgomery county as well. i might be mistaken but i think they offered an opt out similar to the no vaccinations if your religion forbids it
-
Nothing "fevered" about it. I'll sue, too, if Obama et alia try to force some sort of lame-assed community service on my family.
If I got a DUI or didn't pay child support and got caught, sure, then I owe the community some trash pickup time, or worse.
My government, however, will not mandate I do it, and I guarantee that such a grandiose scheme won't come to fruition if those of us holding our freedoms dear have any say in the matter.
All Obama has to do is call it something cute like "Americorps", and get starry-eyed believers to do it of their own volition. No need to mandate community service, short of some Socialist goal of his...
This looks like an overview of the program. Nothing to worry about. I'm sure there will be a few changes but the idea is similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
-
the true horror of the community service programs i've seen , in real life as opposed to imagination so your results may vary, was that they intended to disabuse kids of the idea of the free lunch. they wanted to teach kids that as part of society they had an obligation to give back as opposed to being parasites. believe it or not some kids need a lotta help with that.
-
Okay, I'm pretty sure we all think kids doing work in the community is a great idea. How about we let the local Boy Scout master or Ms. Jones in Civics head that up rather than the federal government making something compulsory.
-
no question the feds will louse it up. i was stunned that montgomery county did so well then the parents rose up and proved that if you have something good working you need to defend it from the morons
-
I surprised Montgomery county can do anything well actually. :laugh:
-
Sidwell Friends is a private school, they can do wat they want.
Instilling civic values and raising the kids is the parents job. The school's job is to educate. In addition to the chill I get at the federal gov trying to instill it's own values in kids, I don't think schools in ths country are educating well enough to spare time to raise the kids.
-
I surprised Montgomery county can do anything well actually. :laugh:
once upon a time they did some things real well. they had a great system in place to help troubled kids. real help and they didn't wait till it was too late. they also had a decent drug rehab program but the money dried up
-
Sidwell Friends is a private school, they can do wat they want.
Instilling civic values and raising the kids is the parents job. The school's job is to educate. In addition to the chill I get at the federal gov trying to instill it's own values in kids, I don't think schools in ths country are educating well enough to spare time to raise the kids.
civic values was part of my education both at home and at school. for all too many kids they aren't getting civic values at home. think of community service requirements as the morality version of the school breakfast program. i think it could best be managed at the local level for example the kids at the local elementary pick up trash along the road, they don't toss trash much after that
-
can someone point to a negative experience? in real life? i hate to impose that kinda limitation
When I was in HS, I did tons of community service at the local library. All of the librarians were little old ladies, who were greatly pleased to have someone young to move several metric tons of boxes filled with books (written on lead paper, I swear). I also sorted books for the annual book sale, and the evil little kid I was, I skimmed the best books off the top and into my backpack before ANYONE had a chance to purchase them! Hey, I was like 14, it seemed like evil genius work at the time...
I don't think I'd have the love of books I have today if I ordered to do forced labor by the federal government at no pay or benefit. Mandating kids by law to do forced labor just doesn't have a nice ring to it. If it's a school/church/parent thing, it's optional (to the parents at least) and a good thing. When something is the law, it must have an associated punishment for noncompliance or else it is merely advice. You think fining or tossing parents in jail when some govt desk jockey thinks that little Johnny didn't put in enough hours of unpaid child labor will go over well?
As for negative examples, the Всесою́зная пионе́рская организа́ция и́мени В. И. Ле́нина or the Всесоюзный Ленинский Коммунистический Союз Молодёжи (ВЛКСМ).
-
This sort of parallels our "voluntary" income tax payment system, right ?
=D
-
. . . but to really mess things up, you need government.
CassDaddy, there are several beneficial ideas and initiatives I would not want to see in the hands of government.
I have some ideas for education and kids that I would love to be able to implement -- in a private school -- but which I would never entrust to anything as capricious and corrupt as government.
Compulsory anything is tantamount to tyranny.
Discipline used to be something parents could administer and parents had no problem with schools implementing an extension of that idea.
Over the last forty years, with the infiltration of psychiatry and psychology into the system, working as a carrier wave for the values of socialism, the natural authority of parents within their own families has been nearly completely undermined, and the government and its surrogates have "become the parents," to the point where kids are instructed that any discipline at home which they feel is oppressive can be reported as "child abuse." (I got to experience that with my youngest daughter. "You can't ground me any more, or I can report you for child abuse." You just have to experience that some time, just to appreciate the sensation.)
"Treatment" is the new punishment. Failure to comply with "norms" indicates some kind of "syndrome" or "disorder" even unto "mental illness."
Look for this trend to accelerate. "Teen Screen" is a program where teens in school are isolated, questioned (with asinine things like, "are you ever nervous in front of your peers") and then assigned a regimen of the psychotropic drug du jour.
Our current vector -- if it goes unchecked -- leads to a fascist implementation of socialism.
When the majority of the nation is willing to vote for security-by-government rather than liberty and responsibility, that curve leads first to "tyranny of the majority" followed by a blatant centralized tyranny (imposed to "bring order" from the chaos that ensues from direct democracy).
I don't know if a rollback is possible. It may require decades of a different kind of infiltration of the system.
However.
When disagreeing with the dictates of the system is assessed as "mental illness" and commitment does not require due process (or the "due process" relies on "medical expertise"), now you have a system that defends itself against correction.
Soviet Russia used this model.
We're in the awkward position today of having a system that -- until now -- has been open to change (and infiltration), but which is on the brink of becoming opaque and self-defending.
SkyNet as government. (Awful metaphor, sorry.)
The more compulsory stuff we permit from government, the more we establish the precedent for compulsory stuff from government. Past a certain threshold, we no longer "permit" it.
Therefore, at every opportunity, discourage compulsory government programs, deny them your approval for anything of the kind.
When I'm trying to to fix something in my life, I MAY make a mess, with the government undertaking that same effort, they WILL make a mess.
I'll take my chances with my own bumbling.
I want to own my own life, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I want my kids to own their own lives.
That's the source of freedom & liberty.
And I'm a big fan of that.
-
It's that whole, you know, freedom thing. My daughter will experience public service on our terms - not terms unilaterally declared by a raging Marxist we don't know.
Example?
I repaired furniture for the poor. Once. Before I was done fixing that couch I realized why I was fixing that couch, when one of the occupants asked me to repair a window screen they had just destroyed for the heck of it.
Oh, I did "public service" after that - just on my terms.
-
It's that whole, you know, freedom thing. My daughter will experience public service on our terms - not terms unilaterally declared by a raging Marxist we don't know.
Example?
I repaired furniture for the poor. Once. Before I was done fixing that couch I realized why I was fixing that couch, when one of the occupants asked me to repair a window screen they had just destroyed for the heck of it.
Oh, I did "public service" after that - just on my terms.
but again in the real world where i saw it implemented you and daughter could do just that pick her type/place of service heck i knew kids who got credit for reading the bible or church work at their own church. another kid who volunteered to work at the animal shelter. turns out he liked it went from flunking to vet school. i hear all the fear of enslavement but i just can't get past actually watching how the program could and did work. its too big a jump for me from reality to the "it could happen that way" fantasy. one of the arguments used against it in md was "a kid could be driving to or from and get killed"
-
you and daughter could do just that pick her type/place of service
...from THEIR list of approved options. Ya see, that's the problem: the notion that the gov't is omniscient in knowing all options, omnipotent in providing the only path to those options, omnipresent in approving all activities for those options.
Ya see, the Boy Scouts have been disallowed as an "option" in some places because of their social stances. As an Eagle Scout, I have a problem with that. Also, I belong to a church denomination which, while not outrageous, traditionally has a view of government which government may not like; would we be on an approved list of charity conduits? not likely, be it for philosophy or for scale (rather small).
Oh, sure, nobody would be limited in their ultimate choices for charity work, it's just that they'd have to do something approved to get credit for it, or to get resources ... both of which would garner social stigma or heightened difficulties if not on THEIR list.
-
from THEIR list of approved options.
actually as i mentioned earlier the process i saw, as opposed to imagine, allowed the kids to pick original forms of service.i think the fact that some of it was religious even biblical was what bothered some of the parents.
-
C&S's D.
The model you are refering to is a private school, the students are there because those parents agreed with the moral and social compass of the proprietors. Those parents were also free to remove their children from the school at any time. This school is also located in a specific demographic (I would assume), and therefore can custom-tailor the education to the desire of the parents.
We are talking about a nation-sweeping, taxed funded, government run program that will decide the direction this 'community service' will take. And if you the parent don't like it? Tough, it's a manditory govt program.
So whats the big problem there?
In the short term, nothing. You are forced (your child) to do the service, and life goes on.
But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will.
How does this happen?
It's the nature of the 'community service'. While it seems harmless, the over-all tone will be custom tailored to suit the needs of a opressive socialist society, that needs indentured serfs. "Wow thanks governement for allowing me to be educated with my parents taxes. Now let me show you how thankful I am by doing free labor for you, while you drain half my paycheck that you also write!"
Once you have a generation of people convinced they are responsible for financially maintaining the needs of others, you loose the ideals of self reliance, independence and freedome and the ability to resist the people in control.
Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's a big step towards the end of true freedom in America.
-
C&S's D.
The model you are refering to is a private school, the students are there because those parents agreed with the moral and social compass of the proprietors. These parents were also free to remove their children from the school at any time. This school is also located in a specific demographic (I would assume), and therefore can custom-tailor the education to the desire of the parents.
We are talking about a nation-sweeping, taxed funded, government run program that will decide the direction this 'community service' will take. And if you the parent don't like it? Tough, it's a manditory govt program.
So whats the big problem there?
In the short term, nothing. You are forced (your child) to do the service, and life goes on.
But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will.
How does this happen?
It's the nature of the 'community service'. While it seems harmless, the over-all tone will be custom tailored to suit the needs of a opressive socialist society, that needs indentured serfs. "Wow thanks governement for allowing me to be educated with my parents taxes. Now let me show you how thankful I am by doing free labor for you, while you drain half my paycheck that you also write!"
Once you have a generation of people convinced they are responsible for financially maintaining the needs of others, you loose the ideals of self reliance, independence and freedome and the ability to resist the people in control.
Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's a big step towards the end of true freedome in America.
actually i was talking about public schools in montgomery county md. where the parents took legal action "for the children" and perversely i didn't hear the kids whine . your imagination may vary
"But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will."
you mean the way the draft reduced the population to drones? i don't recall that
-
Fortunately the draft was responded to, by the people, by abolishing it.
Why set up a community service "draft" that may need a similar fix? And in a political environment even less conducive to individualism?
-
do you remember it turning folks into drones? was that before my time? i was around for the end of conscription.
heres a subversive group behind community service the infamous national honors society
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/northwoodhs/students/nationalhonorsociety.html
another
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/kennedyhs/lti_pillars.htm
http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/MSDE/programs/servicelearning/docs/leas/montgomery
it appears i need to get out more community service survived the parents action "for the children" and is still a reality. churning out drones to serve the overlords and so cleverly disguised that those who are around it in real life are all fooled . only those empowered by their imagination can see the insidious threat
-
more on the insidious nature of this menace
http://aer.sagepub.com/cgi/content/full/44/1/197
long piece
apparently kids doing community service are driven to actually vote in elections. we need to stop that before it gets outa hand. especially since it seems that they actually vote the issues as opposed to "my union said".
the graphs save time for the reading disinclined
-
You're deliberately playing dense.
the organization also encourages students to become active in school activies and community service
That's voluntary.
No one has a problem with voluntary, or even "mandatory" at a voluntarily-attended private school.
What we have a problem with is government mandated service, which by definition would have legal penalities for non-compliance, the acceptability of which is to be determined by the government.
The draft (and selective service) is Constitutionally justified under the Militia power of the Congress. there is no similar provision allowing the Congress to compel the citizenry to serve in any other way.
Even in the case of the draft, once it was seen as a negative by society, society had it removed.
Why do something unConstitutional, with great potential for misuse, when by your own examples it can be more effectively done at a local level, without compulsion?
-
It doesn't matter how positive one of the results might be. Coercing public service from teenagers, outside raising an army, is not within the Federal Government's authority. End of story.
-
belonging to nhs is voluntary you gotta do the service to get in check out the studies that link the service to all that nasty civic responsibility
-
Manditory voluntery service seams to be ironically fitting for pubic sckools.
-
ummm to the best of my knowledge none of my examples
have anything to do with the federal gov what story are you playing in?
-
I'm fully aware of NHS requirements (gee, wonder how ;/ ).
Again, that is voluntary membership.
In your second post study, the "mandatory" nature was at the local school board if not individual HS level.
Saying that the federal govt will be anywhere near as responsive to local or parental concerns as a School district or PTA driven program is BS and you know it.
Again, there is nothing you've posted to support Federal required community service, which is the topic at hand.
change.gov?
Pres-elect Obama's plan for federally driven mandatory service?
That's the story being discussed.
-
I'm not talking about your examples. I'm talking about Obama, as part of the Federal gov, mandating community service. He simply doesn't have the authority to do so. Neither does Congress, SCOTUS, or any other Federal office. It doesn't matter how good community service might be for people. Federal coercion to perform said community service is outside of their Constitutional mandate, and thus illegal.
-
its easy for me to say this now but some type of required service hasn't historically been what folks seem so afraid of.the draft here and in other places as examples. it seems mb's service in israel left gis ability for independent thought intact.
-
Draft is Constitutional, others are not.
Compulsion by government is bad regardless.
That should be the end of the story.
-
its easy for me to say this now but some type of required service hasn't historically been what folks seem so afraid of.the draft here and in other places as examples. it seems mb's service in israel left gis ability for independent thought intact.
Speaking of which, I thought mandatory military service was fairly uncommon in the world. This map is pretty interesting:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fea%2FConscription_map_of_the_world.svg%2F800px-Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg.png&hash=c473f3cd23f6a5c731cfe30021400cd9664f2ad4)
██ No armed forces
██ No draft (voluntary army/professional army)
██Draft, scheduled to be abolished in the near future as in > 3 years
██Draft
██No information
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg)
-
Speaking of which, I thought mandatory military service was fairly uncommon in the world. This map is pretty interesting:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fea%2FConscription_map_of_the_world.svg%2F800px-Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg.png&hash=c473f3cd23f6a5c731cfe30021400cd9664f2ad4)
██ No armed forces
██ No draft (voluntary army/professional army)
██Draft, scheduled to be abolished in the near future as in > 3 years
██Draft
██No information
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg)
Hmmmmm Greenland is ripe for the picking by a bunch of well armed Anti-Pirate hunters upon their retirement from clearing the horn of Africa of Pirate Scum.....
-
Hmmmmm Greenland is ripe for the picking by a bunch of well armed Anti-Pirate hunters upon their retirement from clearing the horn of Africa of Pirate Scum.....
He who hunts pirates should take care he does not become a pirate. When you look into the "yarrrr" the "yarrrr" also looks into you.
-
Hmmmmm Greenland is ripe for the picking by a bunch of well armed Anti-Pirate hunters
*scribbles note*
Well, we got something to talk about at the next Ron Paul meetup now!
-
He who hunts pirates should take care he does not become a pirate. When you look into the "yarrrr" the "yarrrr" also looks into you.
Just say you're librating Greenland from the yoke of oppressive Danish rule.
-
Ok, a couple things here...
1. C&SD doesn't get it, and probably never will, no matter how much we try to educate him in the folly thereof.
2. As mentioned earlier in this 5-page thread, he's gone over to deliberately playing dense. Even I can see that.
3. Thread drift has pretty much turned this into another dread APS pirate yarrrnnn.
That's all she wrote, folks.