Author Topic: Toyta Prius Review  (Read 7538 times)

roo_ster

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Toyta Prius Review
« on: May 16, 2008, 05:43:06 AM »
Howdy:

Bottom Line
OK if you hate driving or you are indifferent to driving.

Intro
I just had an all-expense-paid-trip to Twentynine Palms, CA, courtesy of my employer.

When I got to the rental car counter, they asked me if a Prius was OK and I was game.

Context
To put my review in context, I researched and test-drove pretty many of the autos in the Prius class late last year for my mother's auto purchase:
Honda Civic
Mazda 3
Volkswagen Jetta
Ford Fusion & Focus
Nissan Sentra
Chevy Cobalt & HHR

Interior & Controls
The first thing you notice is its goofy controls. 

Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button. 

The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen.  This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way.  Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system.  Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller.  To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen.  MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.

Last, the gearshift is what I would describe as, "Straight Outta Cushman."  As in golf-cart-like.

The upholstery, seats, etc. are all competent in a Toyota-boring sort of way.  They get the job done with no fuss or panache.

It is definitely a compact/sub-compact, interior size-wise.  It has less storage space you might expect for the class, however.

For some reason, it is classed as, "mid-sized" by fueleconomy.gov.  You couldn't tell that by the usable interior space.

Exterior
Toyota-boring.  'Nuff said on that subject.

Drive
In town, it gets the job done without offense and with competence.  It is not quick, but not pokey.  It handles sedately, but without wallowing.  One thing that I noticed was some hesitation when I would mash the accelerator and the gas engine was invoked to help the electric.

On the road and especially in the hills, the Prius is a rolling annoyance.  Its buzzy, weak gas engine is a constant reminder that this auto is built for fuel economy, not performance.  Did I mention the buzzy engine?  If you took a 2-stroke weed-whacker and placed it a 1/2 block away, behind one turn, you would understand how it sounds under load.  Where it was sedate and non-wallowy in town, it got more & more bloated-feeling as it got steeper & twisty-er.

This is not a car for "drivers," but for commuters or operators.  If you demand a positive tactile experience while driving, this car is not for you.  If you consider an auto merely a way to get from point A to point B, the Prius may be your thing in town.

Relative to Other Autos
ANY of the autos I mentioned above, with the exception of the Nissan Sentra, will provide a better driving experience.  The Jetta and 3 blow it outta the water, while the Civic, Ford & Chevy entrants are merely superior.

Let me say again, the Chevy Cobalt/HHR has a more rewarding driving experience. 

The Prius does get ~10MPG more than the others, with the exception of the Jetta turbo diesel, which is comparable.  The Jetta provides a much more rewarding driving experience, though, it is hard to compare. 

I guess the Prius has green cachet, but the effective impact over the lifetime of the two vehicles is likely the same or slightly in the Jetta's favor, as a turbo diesel will soldier on long after similar gasoline engines are scrap.  The environmental impact of building two or three Priuses and operating them over the lifetime of one Jetta TDI is likely much greater than keeping your TDI in running order.

(Heck, keeping one's currently-owned auto in running condition is likely more environmentally-friendly than buying a new anything.)

Conclusion
See the bottom line, above.
Regards,

roo_ster

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wmenorr67

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 05:47:33 AM »
Come on tell us how you really feel about it.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

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mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 05:51:09 AM »
Quote
One thing that I noticed was some hesitation when I would mash the accelerator and the gas engine was invoked to help the electric.

That might be as much a fault of Toyota's annoying electronic throttle as anything.  My 03 Camry has the electronic throttle and after 2 years of driving it, I still can't quite adjust.

As for the Prius, I'm not quite sure why anyone would take on the higher cost of ownership just to gain a few miles per gallon over the Corolla or Yaris (does the Prius even do better than the Yaris?).  I haven't driven the Prius or Yaris, so maybe I'm missing something.  The Yaris is cheaper, if you factor that into the equation, it's going to be cheaper to own long term even if it doesn't get better gas mileage.

Chris

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 05:53:53 AM »
First, it's "Toyota", not Toyta

Quote
Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button.

Wrong.  You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.

Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen.  This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way.  Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system.  Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller.  To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen.  MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.

Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it.  This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.  laugh

wmenorr67

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 05:56:49 AM »
Wow, man makes a typo and you jump all over him.

Then you claim he is stupid.

Guess you are just the smartest person on here.

NOT!
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 05:58:43 AM »
Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen.  This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way.  Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system.  Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller.  To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen.  MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.

Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it.  This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.  laugh

Well, you're fussing about cellphones, which are just in your ear. I think taking your eyes off the road is a bad thing, so this is a lot worse.

To put it in perspective, my car has a steering wheel remote for the stereo, with all tactile-feel buttons. I can adjust volume, change CD tracks or XM channels or iPod tracks, switch sources, even adjust level balance or mute the whole system with the right hand still being used for steering, without taking my eyes off the road.

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 06:02:41 AM »
I just looked up the mpg specs on Toyota's website:

Yaris: 29/35 (surprising, my 1993 Paseo, which is a similar car, got 30/40 with a 5spd and 15yr older tech)
Prius: 48/45 (Paddy, do you have real world numbers?)
Corolla:  27/35 (conservative, my dad's 07 model gets 30something/40something in actual driving with an automatic transmission)

Base Purchase Price:
Yaris: $11,350
Prius: $21, 100
Corolla: $15,250

I didn't equalize for options, I just grabbed the base model prices.  That said, the Prius starts nearly $10k higher than the Yaris and nearly $6k higher than the Corolla.  How much gass will the savings purchase if you get a Yaris or Corolla?  What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?

Maybe hybrids will be viable when they come down in price and are close to the price of standard vehicles, or when the MPG figures further eclipse standard autos.  For now, they're mere status symbols.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 06:04:31 AM »
Yeah, I'm not crazy about the touchscreen either.  I'd rather have buttons and knobs. 

Besides, what do you do if you want an aftermarket stereo?  I mean, it's not as big a deal as it used to be, factory stereos are pretty decent.  The base model 6 speaker AM/FM/CD/Cassette system in my Camry is pretty good, but what if you want more?

Wrong.  You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.

Yeah, I bike with a guy who's hybrid Camry does the same. 

Chris

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 06:08:09 AM »
Quote
To put it in perspective, my car has a steering wheel remote for the stereo, with all tactile-feel buttons. I can adjust volume, change CD tracks or XM channels or iPod tracks, switch sources, even adjust level balance or mute the whole system with the right hand still being used for steering, without taking my eyes off the road.

Our Prius has those controls in the steering wheel also, plus Bluetooth cellphone controls.

bedlamite

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 06:08:35 AM »

I guess the Prius has green cachet, but the effective impact over the lifetime of the two vehicles is likely the same or slightly in the Jetta's favor, as a turbo diesel will soldier on long after similar gasoline engines are scrap.  The environmental impact of building two or three Priuses and operating them over the lifetime of one Jetta TDI is likely much greater than keeping your TDI in running order.

That doesn't even count the environmental impact of mining the nickel and manufacturing the battery, or the cost to replace it in 100K miles.
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 06:11:27 AM »
That doesn't even count the environmental impact of mining the nickel and manufacturing the battery, or the cost to replace it in 100K miles.

I think the lifespan has been estimated to go longer, but I'd still be miffed if I had to replace it before 200k unless it was cheap, say less than $1000.  That doesn't include the batteries that fail "just because" as batteries sometimes do.

And yes, I keep cars that long.  My 4Runner has 160k, my Camry has 120k.  The Paseo I referenced above had 200k when I sold it merely because we had a child on the way and it was too small.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 06:44:41 AM »
Nobody wants to talk about actual numbers?

Chris

bedlamite

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 06:47:34 AM »
I haven't got the actual cost to replace the battery with new, but I've heard between $2K-4K. They can be had on Ebay for $500
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 06:55:02 AM »
Is it something the average joe can do themselves?  How big is this battery? 

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 06:56:14 AM »
I haven't got the actual cost to replace the battery with new, but I've heard between $2K-4K. They can be had on Ebay for $500

If it looks too good to be true, it is.

What you'd get, likely, if you got anything at all, was a scrapped Toyota casing with a row of lead-acid batteries jammed in it, or low-quality Chinese batteries wired improperly.

Caveat emptor.

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 06:59:34 AM »
I just checked ebay.  Used Prius batteries go for about $600 and up plus $125 shipping. 

Judging by one pic where the battery was sitting on what looked like standard 1 sq/ft floor tiles, the batteries are roughly 3' long and 18" wide.  They're being shipped freight, so they can't be particularly light.  Doesn't look like a job for the average Prius owner to me.

Chris

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 07:01:17 AM »
What I don't like about the Prius is the CV tranny.  I think that's what makes the engine jump into high rpm's with just slight pressure on the accelerator.  And, the mileage on the Prius is not much better than on my Echo, which cost half as much, has a manual tranny that allows better control, and still gets 40 mpg.

But the Prius is SWMBO's car and I don't have to drive it. It is comfortable on long trips, though.

K Frame

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 07:02:25 AM »
How many of those batteries make up a battery pack?
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mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 07:04:09 AM »
I think you just have the one.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 07:05:53 AM »
And, the mileage on the Prius is not much better than on my Echo, which cost half as much, has a manual tranny that allows better control, and still gets 40 mpg.

That there is the problem I have with hybrids (at least the compact ones).  The mileage isn't much better, if at all, than similar sized cars.  It makes a bit more sense on larger vehicles such as full sized cars and SUVs, but I'm still afraid of the technology from a durability standpoint. 

Chris

Tallpine

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2008, 07:08:10 AM »
We really like our Chevy HHR.  It's about the only thing out there in the ~30mpg class that we can haul several 50lb sacks of feed, and 2 weeks of groceries and bottled (RO) water.  Another 10-15mpg makes no sense if you have to make five 100 mile round trips to town to get what you need. rolleyes

I like being able to get in and out without feeling like I'm doing the limbo dance.

Downside is the low ground clearance (well, it's just a car after all ...)
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roo_ster

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2008, 07:53:58 AM »
First, it's "Toyota", not Toyta

Quote
Startup requires that the keyfob be placed in its slot, your foot on the brake, and a press on the "Start" button.

Wrong.  You can keep the keyfob in your pocket, and the car will start.

Quote
The next thing one notices is the computer/control LCD touchscreen.  This is less goofy than the start-up sequence but still odd, in a "lets put all the controls in a menu/button-driven LCD touchscreen" sort of way.  Instead of reaching over and mashing a radio station "seek/scan" you must traverse the LCD operating system.  Be careful to use only one finger and do not touch any surrounding LCD or control button, else you will end up in someplace other than the radio controller.  To repeat: you gotta place your attention on the LCD and precisely place your finger on the touchscreen.  MUCH more distracting from driving than any cellphone conversation.

Yes, you must be smarter than the car to operate it.  This does exclude some people, so if you're in that group, don't buy one.  laugh

I was able to operate it just fine, O Master of Spellcheck.  My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving.  Such poor design is not confined to the Prius, as BMW took one in the jimmy for their particular LCD-touchscreen control center a few years back.

Also, I recall your point about only needing the keyfob in the auto, not necessarily in the slot.  I tried it, but it did not work.  I suspect the rental car company has disabled that particular "feature" for some reason.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2008, 07:58:45 AM »
So the key is a distance-readable RFID?

Wow. Wait'll thieves learn to use a RFID reader with a loop antenna to copy Prius owners' keys from across the room... cheesy

It'll be worse than those Mercedes models with an IR keyless entry, whose pattern could be captured by any cheap universal remote set to "learn" mode when the key was used.

K Frame

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2008, 07:59:03 AM »
"My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving."

You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?
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erictank

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2008, 08:13:30 AM »
I just looked up the mpg specs on Toyota's website:

Yaris: 29/35 (surprising, my 1993 Paseo, which is a similar car, got 30/40 with a 5spd and 15yr older tech)
Prius: 48/45 (Paddy, do you have real world numbers?)
Corolla:  27/35 (conservative, my dad's 07 model gets 30something/40something in actual driving with an automatic transmission)

Base Purchase Price:
Yaris: $11,350
Prius: $21, 100
Corolla: $15,250

I didn't equalize for options, I just grabbed the base model prices.  That said, the Prius starts nearly $10k higher than the Yaris and nearly $6k higher than the Corolla.  How much gass will the savings purchase if you get a Yaris or Corolla?  What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?

Maybe hybrids will be viable when they come down in price and are close to the price of standard vehicles, or when the MPG figures further eclipse standard autos.  For now, they're mere status symbols.

Chris

IIRC, 2008 fuel efficiency standards appear SHARPLY lower than 07 and before, even for the same model vehicle, due to adjustments to the testing procedure.  I believe on the order of 10 or more MPG lower, for the same model car, between the two years.  Makes the Prius look a little better, though of course real-world numbers rule over EPA estimates.

I remember an amusing article a couple of years back alleging that, after manufacturing, maintenance, disposal, and replacement costs over vehicle lifetimes were taken into account, the Hummer H2 was a "greener" vehicle than the then-current Prius.  Can't speak from to the truth of it, but the article made a good argument.