Author Topic: According to a Public Service...  (Read 7567 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2008, 06:01:45 PM »
I don't think it matters if it's a disease or not--it's still self inflicted.

Should a person who saws off both his legs get the same help as a person who had an accident?

how smart were you at 12?
Smart enough to not ruin my life with drugs?  I dunno man, with all the parent talk, media hype, and very obvious signs around me that drugs were bad news, I didn't really need much convincing.  I think you overestimate the intelligence of young kids.  A lot more of them know better than you think.

iif you had parents that talked to you consider yourself lucky  you got a ton of adults/parents who indulge in "victimless " crime and their kids know it.  the other factor is the "it won't happen to me" syndrome.   and if nothin bad happens first time you figure your golden.i know theres a lotta noise about pot as a "gateway " drug but for me the gateway was booze. it did something to me first time everytime. and the first time i was too young to really understand it beyond knowing i liked it.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2008, 07:44:26 PM »
...announcement I heard on the radio today heroin addiction is a disease.

Silly me...

I thought it was a choice.


From the time a close relative of mine did in rehab, and talks to her therapists, I know that there are, indeed, mental conditions that make a man or woman more liable to develop substance abuse. If not heroin, then alcohol, even gasoline. It has to do with being screwed up before you even start injecting or huffing.

I do suspect this is not what they meant.
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Balog

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2008, 08:29:57 PM »
Genetic predisposition is no excuse. My Dad, both grandpa's, and 3 outta 4 great-granpa's were all hardcore drunks. I've got genetic predisposition to alcholism coming out my ass. But I choose not to drink (purely because of the genetics).
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MicroBalrog

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 02:25:21 AM »
Genetic predisposition is no excuse. My Dad, both grandpa's, and 3 outta 4 great-granpa's were all hardcore drunks. I've got genetic predisposition to alcholism coming out my ass. But I choose not to drink (purely because of the genetics).

I'm not talking about genetic predisposition, but rather, psychological trauma, etc.

Nor is it an excuse, but it is something that medical personnel should take into account when treating.
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HankB

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2008, 04:05:08 AM »
By defining certain behaviors (drug addiction, drunkeness) as diseases, then insurance companies can be made to pay for treatment, rehab, counseling, etc.

These definitions are all about the money, folks.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2008, 04:05:53 AM »
By defining certain behaviors (drug addiction, drunkeness) as diseases, then insurance companies can be made to pay for treatment, rehab, counseling, etc.



And the government can use it to better regulate various activities.

Well... 'better'...
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Firethorn

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2008, 05:18:32 AM »
Quote
Should a person who saws off both his legs get the same help as a person who had an accident?

Generally speaking, yes.  Under what circumstances would a right minded person saw off his or her own legs?  I've heard of a couple incidents - on involved a young man who became trapped when a boulder rolled onto his leg in a remote location.  He ended up amputating his own leg after a couple days.

If said individual did it deliberately, without a pressing reason(like no other options found to prevent death), most likely they're seriously not right in the head.  Thus, along with treating the amputations by whatever means, they should also treat the head.

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As far as I'm concerned once they're ID'd as druggies they should get all the drugs they want right up to and including that final dose that sends them to HELL!

Actually wouldn't be a bad policy!   angel

1.  Drug dealers wouldn't make money - all the addicts would be getting their stuff from the government, not them.
2.  Dealers would have no incentive to get new users addicted - they'd simply go to the government office and get them for free
3.  Drug quality would be much higher and more consistent, unless you're willing to put poison pills in there or something(I wouldn't).

As a result, you'd kill the illegal drug market for far less than the 'war on drugs'.  Drug addicts, in general, would be able to live productive lives for far longer, many would be able to last until they died of non-drug complications. 

For example, look at the heroin addict - drug overdose is fairly common, but that's more because the user doesn't really have a good clue how potent that particular black market dose is.

But overall I do think that treating addiction as a disease or syndrome is probably an overall better idea than simply trying to state that it's a choice.  It gives you more treatment obtions.  Clinics don't have a particularly good success rate at treating addiction, but it's better than prison's.

Werewolf

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2008, 06:51:43 AM »
Nico:
The average guy on the street associates disease with something one has no control over acquiring.

Using the word disease, to describe a self inflicted drug addiction, removes the responsibilty for acquiring the addiction in the first place.

It's all about spin.
It's all about money.

And using disease to describe chemical dependence/drug addiction is intellectual dishonesty.
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nico

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2008, 07:42:14 AM »
Nico:
The average guy on the street associates disease with something one has no control over acquiring.
The average guy on the street doesn't know much about anything.  He needs to educate himself better and take a more active role in his own health.  I realize the word disease has that connotation, but that kind of thinking is what leads to acceptance of ridiculous ideas like "only gays get HIV."  Willful ignorance doesn't make you less susceptible to reality.  If doctors based their treatment on what the "average" person thinks, and not science/reality, we'd all be screwed.

Quote
Using the word disease, to describe a self inflicted drug addiction, removes the responsibilty for acquiring the addiction in the first place.

Yes, some people will say "I have a disease, there's nothing I can do about it."  Those people are ignorant and need to suck it up and take responsibility for themselves.  That doesn't change the facts that addiction fits any objective definition of disease you can come up with and using a disease model has proven to be the best way to treat addiction.  I know you said they can all go to hell, but I'm willing to bet you come in contact with at least one recovering addict on a regular basis, who is leading a productive life.  Two of the recovering addicts I've had talks with at school are physicians.  They lead productive lives, choose not to do drugs, and no one they work with knows about their addiction.

Quote
It's all about spin.
It's all about money.

There are people who rely on the average guy's stupidity to fund their pet project with the "it's a disease, they can't help it" line.  But, their abuse of other people's ignorance doesn't change reality.  Saying that addiction is not a disease just spins the facts to make people feel less responsible for their own welfare.

Quote
And using disease to describe chemical dependence/drug addiction is intellectual dishonesty.

Pretending that addiction isn't a disease for political expedience, or that a person with a disease can't help it is intellectual dishonesty. 

fwiw, addiction and physical dependence aren't necessarily the same thing (addiction often includes physical dependence, but you can be physically dependent on a drug and not be addicted).   


Just to illustrate the point I'm trying to make:  I've mentioned several times on this board that I'm in dental school.  This summer I'm starting to see patients full time.  Most of the patients at my school come in with some level of periodontal disease, which is an infection of the gums that results mainly from poor oral hygiene (if someone tries to argue it's not a disease, my head will explode, and you will be responsible shocked).  With the most serious perio cases, we'll have the patient come back every couple of months for cleanings.  But, no matter what I do every 6, 3, or even 2 months, if the patient doesn't start brushing their teeth, they're not going to get better.  If I just accept that my patients think that because they have a disease they're not responsible for their own health, and do nothing to educate them, their teeth will fall out.  There are plenty of patients at the school with IQs much lower than average, who understand that periodontal disease is a disease AND that they have to take care of themselves for it to get better, so I have some faith that the average guy on the street can learn that diseases can be self inflicted.  Lowering yourself to the status quo when you should know better doesn't help anyone.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: According to a Public Service...
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2008, 11:47:51 AM »
the desease model also helps with treatment. folks used to give up  now some try to change.

"Genetic predisposition is no excuse. My Dad, both grandpa's, and 3 outta 4 great-granpa's were all hardcore drunks. I've got genetic predisposition to alcholism coming out my ass. But I choose not to drink (purely because of the genetics). "

good plan! i encourage my kid to do the same. my parents didn't drink much  mom none at all. both grandparents on dad side light drinkers moms dad a drunk. and 3 of the 4 kids in my family had booze/substance issues.  none of us boose or dope any longer and the treatment we go as a result of the didease model was a big help
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I