tithing

[zahc]

For the churchgoers.

Does anyone here give 10% of gross/pretax income to their church? Why? Why this amount, and why that church?

My wife was raised to think that doing so is required for obedience to the scriptures. I wasn't.

This all started up again when she got laid off, which she attributes to God's punishment for not giving this amount to Him our church.

I'm just wondering if this 10% gross thing is commoner than I think.

[Uncle Bubba]

Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Tithing But Were Afraid To Ask (courtesy of Wikipedia, with sources and links):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe


I can tell you from personal experience, having been raised in a Southern Baptist church, that they did then and do now preach and practice tithing. You give it to support your home church and give any more that you feel led to give to whomever you wish. In modern parlance the practice would be called "old school" because the New Age-/New Christian-type churches (the feel-goods, I call 'em, like the one an old friend of mine is pastor of) don't hold with it but say rather that you should give whatever you feel led to give.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

It's regarding as A Good Thing (TM) to give 10%. S. Baptists IME mirror Uncle Bubba's. They like 10% of the gross. From what I understand, a lot of the members give far less than 10% (of gross or after-tax salary), however.
For myself, I do. I also don't have (m)any debts or obligations.

[RevDisk]

May a non-Christian inquire as to why it is 10 percent?  Is there a spiritial or legalistic reason for that particular number instead of 1% or 20% ?   Also, why gross instead of net?   Is it a symbolic gesture that religion comes before the state?

[FTA84]

I think it really depends on how your church spends its income and your own personal beliefs.

For example:

My church tends to spend money on AIDS relief and sending the church choir to competition.  

Many other churches spend their money sending members to construct churches.

Now I don't really believe that paying for trips for 15 people half way across the world is the best way to build a church.  It seems that I could send one person, with the airfare of the other 15, and get a few churches built.  I also don't understand how sending the church choir to compete gets anything done, at all.  

So I generally don't tithe.  I know the size of my congregation and I give what I feel is a proportionate amount for the church's daily operations.  I add in what I consider to be 50% of my contribution for the AIDS relief program (which I am torn about, because on one hand, it is 10000 times more efficient than spending money on global warming but welfare doesn't tend to help anyone).  I refuse to tell them what they are getting ahead of time and/or be on any tithing list.

Now this does not add up to "10% of my income".  Income is just a measure of the value of your time.  I try to make up the rest by contributing time volunteering (not with the church) and donating to charities/causes I find more worthy than AIDS relief and choiring.

There is no blueprint to getting into God's graces.  No magic number of donations, no correct number of hail marys, nor frequent enough attendance at church.

I oft think that God gives hardships, not as vengance, but as a blessing.  Sometimes I think he does things which are the lesser of two evils.  Someone had to get laid off, maybe your wife is in a better position to weather the storm than someone else?

[GigaBuist]

May a non-Christian inquire as to why it is 10 percent?  Is there a spiritial or legalistic reason for that particular number instead of 1% or 20% ?   Also, why gross instead of net?   Is it a symbolic gesture that religion comes before the state?

The 10% figure is found somewhere in the Old Testament from what I remember.  I listened to a sermon years ago from a guy that studied the Bible a whole lot and he kinda tore the 10% figure to shreds.  It's in there, but it's not the only one.  I can't cite ANYTHING but if you add up the various bits and pieces you're supposed to devote it's more like 30% when you get right down to it.  Oh, and all if it was in the Old Testament which makes it less of a Christian question and a question for Jews and Christians.  Same rule book, but one of them gets to eat bacon.

I know of no theological basis for the gross vs. net argument.  That's just up to the individual churches.

[GigaBuist]

This all started up again when she got laid off, which she attributes to God's punishment for not giving this amount to our church.

"God here.  How's it going?  Sorry about that flood thing, I promise not to do it again.  I hope y'all learned your lesson.

Way back yonder I created the universe, Earth, land, water, and every living creature on it.  I trust that you're familiar with my work.  Since then I've been everywhere watching y'all constantly and every now and again I pop up to let somebody know what my thoughts are.  About 2,000 years ago I ended that practice and impregnated a virgin woman by the name of Mary.  She gave birth my son, Jesus, who died for your sins just as I had promised way back when to Abraham so that y'all would be able to live in Heaven with me.  I knew there was no way you yokels would be able to hold up your end of the bargain.

For all of mankind's existence I've channeled my being, my spirit, into the hearts of humans all over the earth.  I, and my son Jesus, bring you a message of hope, peace, and eternal happiness.  My power is boundless.  My love infinite.

Wait.  You didn't send the required number of Federal Reserve Notes off to your local church?  Oh, sod off.  Screw you.  I'm killing your job."

Seems a bit illogical to me.

God doesn't need your money.  HE CAN MAKE VIRGIN WOMEN PREGNANT!  He can make wheat, fish, water, planets, solar systems, galaxies, etc. at the drop of a hat.   You think he's going to get pissy because he didn't get a piece of paper designating a transfer of Federal Reserve Notes from one back to another?

[HankB]

Reminds me of a story where a Catholic priest, a Jewish rabbi, and a Television Evanagelist were discussing how they apportioned their collections.

The Catholic priest said he'd take the weekly offerings into his office, and draw a small circle on the floor. He'd throw all the money into the air, and what landed inside he'd keep for personal expenses, with the cash landing outside devoted to the Lord's work.

The Jewish rabbi said he did much the same, except he drew a rather large Star of David on the floor, and the money that landed inside was spent on the Temple, with whatever strayed outside the boundary of the star being what he used for personal expenses.

The priest and the rabbi both looked expectantly at the Television Evangelist.

The TE thought a moment, and then said, "You're both a couple of greedy louses! I throw my collections up into the air and say "Lord, take what you want, and just throw back the rest!!!"

[Grandpa Shooter]

The concept isn't that hard.  If you are a believer the practice is to understand and accept that all of what you have is a gift from God.  One of the ways to gratefully acknowledge that is to give a tenth of it back OFF THE TOP to His church for use by the church to spread the Good News.

Unfortunately that practice has been used and abused by religions of all stripes.

[grampster]

I agree with hardship being a blessing.  When thing go really good all of the time, imho, we begin to become self centered.  Hardships bring us up short and cause reflection about one"s relationship with our Creator.  I know that when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer I ultimately came to be grateful as it changed me for the better.  The recent economic meltdown caused me to lose about 20% of the cash I had accumulated for retirement.  It is not likely I"ll regain those funds.  Oddly, once I put that loss into perspective, it became another wake up call that I consider a blessing.  I"ve actually felt a sense of relief and peace once I came to understand that particular blessing.  I"m reminded of the biblical examples of the guy who had accumulated all his buildings and barns, and the Lord wondered how important would they be if He suddenly took his life, and the advice about what one stores up; things made of dust or will decay or eternal things.  The whole book of Ecclesiastes discusses these things as does the book of Job.  Good advice.

As for tithing, I also agree that everything we have is the result of God"s Grace.  So giving back 10% should not be considered a hardship but a mindset.  90% of what we are given-earn is our 100%.  Not such a bad deal.  We certainly can find ways of slicing out a percentage of our earnings to make monthly payments on a car or some other toy.

Having said that, I don"t tithe in what would be considered a strict definition of it by "religious" folks. 

I have identified a number of organizations or groups that I feel provide worthy services to those who have deep challenges or needs and I contribute cash.  I don"t attend a church even though I"m a Christian, so I don"t support one.  But, I also am active in community things such as neighborhood organizations and political boards.  I contribute time and effort and skill for no or very little pay.  I also feel that putting one"s money back into the economy is also a form of "giving".  By doing that, rather than hording my assets and reveling in them like Uncle Scrooge, even though I receive something in exchange, I still am providing a living for those merchants and jobs for the employees who"s businesses I frequent.   

All of the above, imho, is a form of tithing even though I"ve never thought to add it all up, I"m sure it exceeds 10%.

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

All of the above, imho, is a form of tithing even though I"ve never thought to add it all up, I"m sure it exceeds 10%.


I have to agree with you Grampster.  Back when I was actively involved in an organized denomination, the question of services vs cash came up frequently.  What it came to was a discussion of "good works" vs a percentage "of the gross income."  I make it a habit to try to always practice my beliefs in my public life as well as my work and home lives.  Obviously, being human I fail frequently.  The organized churches seem to not acknowledge "good works" as being of any value in the scheme of things and so discourage many from living a "christian life" outside of Church.

It is almost as though we were still practicing "indulgences" as payment for being sinners.  As long as that is the MO, it is doubtful to me that we will see a change any time soon.

[Perd Hapley]

"Tithe" means "tenth," as do the Hebrew and Greek words used in the Bible's original languages.  Giving a tenth of one's "increase" to God has been customary at least as far back as the day Abram tithed to Melchizedek, "priest of God Most High," in gratitude for divine assistance in battle. 

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=tithe&t=KJV

I believe the information in the link is from Strong's Concordance.  The Blue Letter Bible is an excellent resource for these sorts of questions.  Besides the concordance and Bible search (in multiple versions), it offers text, audio and video from various evangelical commentaries.  Bible Gateway has better Bible search options, although it lacks the excellent, but out of print, Revised Standard Version. 

Gross v. net?  Tithing from the gross only makes sense.  You pay taxes on the gross, so why wouldn't you tithe from the gross? 

[Waitone]

The tithe was 10% of the INCREASE in wealth.  It was considered to be a minimum and was intended to support the ecclesiastical infrastructure at the time.  Other offerings came into play but the tithe was considered to be the minimum. 

In our world we ask, "Net or gross?"  "Before taxes to the state are paid or after taxes to the state are paid?"  So now the question becomes "Who has first claim on wealth?  God as the source or the state as a parasite?"  Your answer to the question gives a glimpse into the mindset as to who is the source of wealth.  In any case farmers of old were asked to provide a tithe out of what was harvested which means the tithe was calculated after the locusts had their way. (Also kinda hard to figure pre-locust harvest).

So in today's lingo the debate is "Do I acknowledge God as the source of my well-being and tithe the gross" or "Do I recognize the primacy of government and tithe net after taxes."

In any case the God of the bible demanded 10% (net or gross is the debate).  Can you imagine government limiting itself to that level?

[Perd Hapley]

In any case the God of the bible demanded 10% (net or gross is the debate).  Can you imagine government limiting itself to that level?

The tithe itself would be like a 10% flat tax, I guess, but there were other sacrifices and offerings. 

[roo_ster]

fistful brings up a good point: time, services, & materials vs cold, hard, cash.

A Bible study last year hit on this pretty hard: the tithe is not about the money.  We use money as a proxy because it is convenient for many.  But, some sort of time/skill/material/service donation will also do the trick...in many cases is preferable due to fellowship opportunities, proselytizing opportunities, etc.  Dollars are useful, but putting a face on the "donation" for others to see has a value beyond what dollars can buy.

'Cause it ain't about the money.

That said, I have always been a "Net After Caesar" rather than a "Gross" man.  The NAC is augmented by service, time, materials, skills, etc: Board of Trustees, work around the church & school, donated materials, use of skills, & all the rest.  If I counted it all up and applied a fair charge for my time/materials, I have little doubt I would hit 10% of gross.

[Tallpine]

I agree with hardship being a blessing.  

Well, "Blessings to you, too!"  

 


Back before I "escaped", we used to tithe (cash only, so no one would know whether or how much).  And do all sorts of volunteer church stuff.  More and more and more and more of it, in fact - until the straw broke the pine tree's back :(

These days, I volunteer as a firefighter, and also perform the treasurer duties.

[Perd Hapley]

I think maybe it was grampster that brought up that point. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

direct tithing is interesting  i like it   seems to work karma wise for me

[lee n. field]

May a non-Christian inquire as to why it is 10 percent?

It's an old covenant (Mosaic) ceremonial thing.  10% is specified.  Couldn't tell you exactly where without looking, though. 

Why this does or does not apply to Christians is another question (and shall we get ourselves ritually circumcised as well?).

[zahc]

Besides that my church is not a jewish temple, and my society is not ancient judaism.

[grampster]

Quote
I agree with hardship being a blessing. 

Well, "Blessings to you, too!"   

 grin

Uhhh, don't want to be over blessed.   

[Northwoods]

We give a tithe from each paycheck to our church.  We do it, not to curry favor with God, and not out of some legalistic rule-keeping, but becuase God wants us to be more like Him and He is a giver of incredible magnitude.  By giving with a cheerful heart I am drawing myself closer to God.

It also seems to have brought benefits far greater than the sums given.  The giving is not made with an expectation of recieving such in return, but its interesting how it turns out.

The tax break a good side benefit, but trading a dollar for a quarter is not a great deal.  I'll take the quarter though becuase I'd be giving the dollar away anyway.

[grampster]

We give a tithe from each paycheck to our church.  We do it, not to curry favor with God, and not out of some legalistic rule-keeping, but becuase God wants us to be more like Him and He is a giver of incredible magnitude.  By giving with a cheerful heart I am drawing myself closer to God.

It also seems to have brought benefits far greater than the sums given. The giving is not made with an expectation of recieving such in return, but its interesting how it turns out.

The tax break a good side benefit, but trading a dollar for a quarter is not a great deal.  I'll take the quarter though becuase I'd be giving the dollar away anyway.

Exactly. 

[Matthew Carberry]

It's an old covenant (Mosaic) ceremonial thing.  10% is specified.  Couldn't tell you exactly where without looking, though. 

Why this does or does not apply to Christians is another question (and shall we get ourselves ritually circumcised as well?).

After proudly commenting that he had finally worked a 10% tithe into his finances, one of our pastors was told years ago by his pastor father that "10% was part of the old Covenant; as Christians, we are free of the Law and thus free to give much, much more."

 

Tithing isn't about the money, it is about having a servant's heart and supporting the work of G-d on earth through gifts of faith and effort of whatever kind. 

In theory tithing more than you can "afford" also shows faith in G-d as the real provider of your needs, not your own efforts.  I struggle with that in the case of people on the edge of poverty and with children and real responsibilities though.  I have a problem with churches expecting (or demanding) it, it should, like every part of the Christian life, be primarily an issue for you to work out prayerfully for yourself.

[drewtam]

Right, 10% was a minimal tax to support the Levitical priesthood, since they were not entitled to property (farms) like the rest of the tribes. Other offerings were also required, for example, the multiple sacrifices were also a part of supporting the priests by giving them food directly. These offerings and sacrifices were more than just support of religious practice. Since early Israel was a theocracy, the Levis also provided clerical work and local government work, often supporting the elders of a city and explaining and teaching the Law.

The Christian is really not bound by this precedent because the Christian is supposed to be motivated by a love for God and man. Furthermore, for the Christian, the Law of Moses was replaced by a better covenant with Christ. The Law of Moses is explained as a physical and minimalist foreshadowing of the kind of spiritual law that Christ brings.

So when the need arose in the early church, Christians were moved to sell all their property to help fellow Christians in poverty or hardship. Or they worked to live communally with each other for times. It is in this situation where the example of Ananias and Sapphira lied about selling their property for a certain amount to gain the respect of other Christians occurs. It was explained in that case that Ananias and Sapphira knew they were not required to sell the property, they knew they did not have to give all or any part of it to the apostles, but they lied anyway to get respect without actually giving the whole thing. So they were struck dead by God for lying and hypocrisy.

So the new testament precedent from this case and other explanations (Matthew story of women with 2 mites, Corinth & Thessaloniki and their giving), is that all giving is supposed to be a freewill offering. Christians are only to give to God at least what they promise, and only what they will not grudge giving. And they must be honest about what they give.


My opinion:
The 10% of gross is a bad standard to use. The freewill offering is a much better method (spiritually speaking). Professional Dual-Income-No-Kids families are very different than poverty line 5 kid families. Tax rates in different countries are very different. If the US was totally socialist with a 100% tax rate; would you still expect 10% gross to the Lord? At 100% tax rate you have nothing left to give. Freewill offerings removes the attempts to squeeze money from people or to create a monthly dues or tax. The Christian church is nothing like that. Of course, the Christian church has a much more limited scope than what modern denominations make it to be. --- But that is a whole other religious debate.