tithing

[Tallpine]

Freewill offerings removes the attempts to squeeze money from people or to create a monthly dues or tax. The Christian church is nothing like that. Of course, the Christian church has a much more limited scope than what modern denominations make it to be. --- But that is a whole other religious debate.

Actually, I was excommunicated from a certain church 30 years ago for not tithing - though that was the least of their faults.  Google Sparks, Gilquist, Braun if you want to know more.  Oddly enough, they became "eastern orthodox" a few years after I left.

[lee n. field]

Google Sparks, Gilquist, Braun if you want to know more.

That is interesting.

Oddly enough, they became "eastern orthodox" a few years after I left.

I remember reading about them at the time.

[Perd Hapley]

I struggle with that in the case of people on the edge of poverty and with children and real responsibilities though.  I have a problem with churches expecting (or demanding) it, it should, like every part of the Christian life, be primarily an issue for you to work out prayerfully for yourself.

In his prayer before the offering, my current pastor usually asks the Lord to "bless those who give, and those who cannot give." 

[MechAg94]

I can't remember the exact words my pastor uses when the plate is passed around, but it was always taught that you should give out of your own generosity and grace and not out of need or necessity or any expectation of personal gain.  The same goes for any donations or help to others.  You really shouldn't do it thinking you will get something in return or that you will "feel" good which is sort of selfish.  That church always taught that tithing didn't apply to Christians.  I always thought Christian tithing was a Catholic thing, but I guess not exclusively.

I was always taught that the Bible does command you to take care of your own family/household first above anything else.  The local church does not need money from people who are struggling to feed and clothe themselves.  Give only what you can afford IMO. 

[Perd Hapley]

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.  1 Timothy 5:8 (ESV)

[go_bang]

For the churchgoers.

Does anyone here give 10% of gross/pretax income to their church? Why? Why this amount, and why that church?

My wife was raised to think that doing so is required for obedience to the scriptures. I wasn't.

This all started up again when she got laid off, which she attributes to God's punishment for not giving this amount to Him our church.

I'm just wondering if this 10% gross thing is commoner than I think.

Yes, it's a fairly common concept in US Christianity.  After all, those megachurchers and Christian television evangelists had to get financed somehow.

In reality, the scriptural concept of tithing is not as simple as 10% off the top of one's gross pay.  Actually, making a case for that is a pretty big stretch.  Those who preach the prosperity gospel are quite adapt at making that stretch appear all good and effortless.

While the concept existed prior to the law of Moses (Genesis 14 and Genesis 28), afterwards is was a rule set up to provide for the the Levites, the expenses of the tabernacle and later the temple, and to provide a means of support for the needy, orphans, and widows.  In Leviticus 27:30 it was set down that the tithe was to be a tenth of all produce and livestock.  No other trade, work, or other form of income was tithed.  If you wanted to pay your tithe in gold or silver instead you had pony up the value of produce or livestock and then add 20%.  In Deuteronomy 14 the tithe law is changed after Israel ends their nomadic life and begins to settle down in the Promised Land.  They are now commanded by God to set aside their tithe so that they have something to use for their pilgrimages to Jerusalem for the feasts.  They are allowed to exchange their tithe for gold or silver without the 20% add-on if they cannot carry it to Jerusalem.  At the end of every third year they are to store the tithe in their towns for the benefit of the Levites, the widows, and the orphans.  In fact, in Malachi 3 when God accuses the Isrealites of robbing him this is what he is referring to.  They are robbing him by not providing for the less fortunate and the Levites.

In the New Testament things change after the death and resurection of Jesus.  His death on the cross fulfills what is referred to as the ceremonial portion of the Mosaic law.  The part of the law that establishes the Levitical priesthood, the temple, the sacrifices, and the tithing system that supported it.  That is why after that point there is no more reference to tithing.  We are instead instructed to give as the Holy Spirit leads us to.  However, that is not an automatic license to give less.  In the NT, Jesus raises the bar higher.  Under OT law you were guilty of adultery if you actually did the deed, but in Matthew 5 Jesus claims that youre guilty of the same for lusting after the person in your heart.  In the same chapter he links the judgement for committing murder with the judgement for simply being angry at someone.  What is really happening here is that Jesus is getting to the core of the matter.  It's all about what's in the heart.

I could go on, but my pastor and I exchanged a couple lengthy emails on the matter of tithing about three years ago that I think might be very helpful towards understanding the matter.  If you're interested, drop me a PM or an email and I will share them with you.

[Archie]

I'm one of them Southern Baptist preachers one hears so much about.  (I'm a shootist on contract with the Federal guvmint to pay my way, but I am an ordained preacher.)

Go bang's explanation is close enough without quibbling.  Part of the agreement between Almighty God and the Jewish nation was a 10% of the increase payment.  This was later translated into Christianity more or less intact.

Please understand this beginning place:  This action is directed only at believers.  If one does not believe in God, giving all one's money is meaningless.  Christian believers tithe as an act of both thanksgiving and obedience.  It's a way of saying, "Thank you for everything, God" with more legs than just words.  Please don't anyone think donating money to any particular church will somehow impress God so much He'll be nice to you.

Gross or net?  The original command was based on 'the increase'.  My late, honored father - a SoBap like me - calculated his tithe on the basis of what he got in his paycheck, before paying any bills.  My late uncle Charley - a ReOrganized Mormon if that has any bearing on the matter - paid all his monthly expenses and considered what was left as his 'increase'.  I calculate my tithe on the gross I earn.  In this matter, God seems to be happy with me, and God also seemed to be happy with my Dad about his understanding.  Like someone said, it isn't like God is about to go broke, but is concerned with attitudes and dedication.

Back to Zahc's original post and question.

Yes, it is an established and legitimate tradition in the Christian church.  Has it been abused by some scoundrels?  Very much so, sadly.  But God will deal with them; my problem is to be honorable with God.  At the same time, the Bible says "The tithe is the Lord's"; not the SoBap church's or the RCC's or Brother Fastalker the televangelist.  So it is the responsibility of the individual Christian to put it where it serves the Lord's Kingdom.

As a life long Christian believer - some fifty years now - I can honestly say my money goes farther and better when I tithe than if I try to keep it all for myself.  But I tithe because I'm a Christian believer, I'm not a Christian believer because I tithe.

[Ron]

Everything you have is Gods.

Tithing was done away with the rest of the law, traditions are just that, mans traditions.

Give of your money, time and possessions out of the abundance of your heart.

For some 10% is so little they wouldn't miss it, for others it may mean paying a bill vs not paying a bill.

[Uncle Bubba]

In his prayer before the offering, my current pastor usually asks the Lord to "bless those who give, and those who cannot give." 

The pastor of the church I went to as a boy always said the same.

Not long ago someone on another board I visit wanted to know what was the point of people bringing one can of food to a Xmas canned food and sneered, "If that's all they can bring themselves to give then they ought to just keep it." I pointed him toward the story in the Book about the Widow's Mite and told him to grow up.