Lane splitting, part 3

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I'm sorry.  Lanesplitting requires relying on the safe actions of the drivers in the lanes.  Watch those amazing videos of Tokyo and Cali bikers someone posted a while back, then think about how many times you YOURSELF may have had a momentary lapse of attention at ANY time in the last year while commuting.  Do you want to be on a bike when that happens?  IT'S NOT A VIDEO GAME!
It's insane.

[K Frame]

"Lanesplitting requires relying on the safe actions of the drivers in the lanes."

Well, to be perfectly honest, so does driving in general.

[jefnvk]

Maybe checking your blind spot would help. Thatr's why you're told to check youir blind spot.

The only problem is, is that when a car is along side me, I know it is there.  It is not a blind spot issue.  Anyone who doesn't ride a motorcycle doesn't think to look to see if there is anything between them and the car they can see next to them.  Especially where lanesplitting is not common.  It is not an issue of not seeing the cycle, it is an issue of not thinking to see that the center line is clear back past your car, when there shouldn't really be anything there.

Like I said, not common at all around here.  It has happened to me exaclty once in my 5 or 6 years of driving, and his buddy passed me in the gravel on the right.  Both were doing well over 100 at the time.

[280plus]

Maybe checking your blind spot would help. Thatr's why you're told to check youir blind spot.

I make a habit of doing so, even more so after that experience but that doesn't mean I can't miss seeing a motorcycle or even a car for that matter. A good / experienced rider knmows what a blind spot is and knows not to hang in them and to move through them quickly.

Ever see the little sign on the back of a truck that says, "If you can't see my mirrors, I CAN'T SEE YOU"?

They put that there for a reason.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Why stop at lane splitting?  Why not make use of those nice shoulders and sidewalks and everything else?

I imagine riding on a sidewalk would be even safer than lanesplitting - fewer cars to avoid.

If you're willing to disregard some the standard driving practices (and I suppose there's nothing terribly wrong with that), why not go all the way and disregard all of them?  Bicycle couriers do just that, and no great harm comes of it.  So why not do it on a motorcycle?

[Guest]

Like I said, not common at all around here.  It has happened to me exaclty once in my 5 or 6 years of driving, and his buddy passed me in the gravel on the right.  Both were doing well over 100 at the time.

Splitting is illegal in your state, so I wouldnt be suprised that it is rare. Visibility isnt the issue, you are talking about a group of people who are routinely run over by people who "didnt see" them when they are sitting on 500 pounds of brightly colored steel, for bikers the "blind spot" is a continous sphere that surrounds an entire vehicle, riders do not make it home because drivers saw them, they make it home by avoiding the people who don't, and splitting makes that easier.

Doesnt seem odd to you that the only people who object to the safety of splitting are people who have never ridden a bike in traffic?

If you're willing to disregard some the standard driving practices (and I suppose there's nothing terribly wrong with that), why not go all the way and disregard all of them?  Bicycle couriers do just that, and no great harm comes of it.  So why not do it on a motorcycle?

Standard driving practices? You may be suprised to learn that the U.S. is the *exception* to the practice of lane splitting, most traffic systems in the world actively alllow, encourage, and even require, lane splitting. The fact is that most nations in the world have found it to be both safer and more effecient, and most people who actually experience traffic on two wheels feel the same. This argument isnt about safety, its about people in cars not wanting to lose the commute race.

[280plus]

For the record I'm not against lane splitting, that's your choice. I'm an advocate of people staying out of my blind spots and hope my little insight will make better safer riders out of those who might read it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If you're willing to disregard some the standard driving practices (and I suppose there's nothing terribly wrong with that), why not go all the way and disregard all of them?  Bicycle couriers do just that, and no great harm comes of it.  So why not do it on a motorcycle?

Standard driving practices? You may be suprised to learn that the U.S. is the *exception* to the practice of lane splitting, most traffic systems in the world actively alllow, encourage, and even require, lane splitting. The fact is that most nations in the world have found it to be both safer and more effecient, and most people who actually experience traffic on two wheels feel the same. This argument isnt about safety, its about people in cars not wanting to lose the commute race.

I don't dispute that it's a safe practice.  It may be quite common in many places.  But around here, NOBODY does it.  It's against the law, and a cop will bust you if he catches you doing it (I think).  Officially, vehicles are suppose to stay in their lanes except when moving from one way to another.  But if you're gonna break that rule, why not break some more?  In for a penny, in for a pound...

Personally, I don't care how you ride your motorcycle.  If you want to break a senseless petty driving rule I won't object.  It's just that I'm confused.  It seems that riding on a clear sidewalk would be even safer and more convienent still.  A road with a wide shoulder would also be ideal.  So why not?

[Guest]

I don't dispute that it's a safe practice.  It may be quite common in many places.  But around here, NOBODY does it.  It's against the law, and a cop will bust you if he catches you doing it (I think).  Officially, vehicles are suppose to stay in their lanes except when moving from one way to another.  But if you're gonna break that rule, why not break some more?  In for a penny, in for a pound...

Personally, I don't care how you ride your motorcycle.  If you want to break a senseless petty driving rule I won't object.  It's just that I'm confused.  It seems that riding on a clear sidewalk would be even safer and more convienent still.  A road with a wide shoulder would also be ideal.  So why not?

Where did breaking the law enter into the equation, the original poster of this thread lives in California, where this practice is perfectly legal.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Ah, nevermind.  Common/uncommon, safe/dangerous, legal/illegal...  I really don't care.  Drive however you want (just don't hit me).

Here's what I want to know:  Why not ride your motorcycle on any other available, empty parts of the road, such as the shoulder, median, sidewalk, etc?  Why limit yourself to the empty spaces between lanes?

[Guest]

Here's what I want to know:  Why not ride your motorcycle on any other available, empty parts of the road, such as the shoulder, median, sidewalk, etc?  Why limit yourself to the empty spaces between lanes?

Because doing so would be excessively dangerous to myself and/or to others. Your question is analagous to asking a person who shoots at a pistol range why they dont perform their target practice in an alley in the middle of a city, it's assinine.

[jefnvk]

Because doing so would be excessively dangerous to myself and/or to others. Your question is analagous to asking a person who shoots at a pistol range why they dont perform their target practice in an alley in the middle of a city, it's assinine.

Maybe recommending driving on a sidewalk is assanine.  But is driving on the shoulder really any different than driving between cars, especially if it is paved?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Chill, man.  

"Lanesplitting" isn't something folks around here do, so I don't know anything about it.  I don't ride motorcycles, so again I know very little about this stuff.  I was merely curious.

I'll admit that I didn't pose my questions very clearly.  For that, I apologize.  But there's nothing asinine about asking an honest question.

Here's another honest question:  Why is it dangerous to ride a motorcycle on a median or empty sidewalk?  How is that akin to "target practice in an alley in the middle of a city"?

[Guest]

Here's another honest question:  Why is it dangerous to ride a motorcycle on a median or empty sidewalk?  How is that akin to "target practice in an alley in the middle of a city"?

I really thought it was obvious, sidewalks are filled with pedestrians, who do have the right of way there, and the median is usually filled with debris and two way traffic.

The shoulder is debatable, but its risky because of all the people entering the roadway from that side.

[280plus]

In Boston you can (or at least you used to could) drive in the breakdown lane during designated rush hour times. If you don't know about it it can surprise you pretty good the first time you encounter it.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

I can remember in the late '70's, during summers when I worked in DC with a landscaping crew at Bolling AFB and Anacostia Naval Base, we would come home to Vienna in the afternoon on the Beltway.  Call it rednecky, but if my friend's older brother was sitting in the far passenger side seat in the cab of the truck, when traffic got bad, he scouted the mirror just WAITING for a biker to try the ILLEGAL move of lanesplitting.  He'd wait until they were about a car length and a half behind us, then just casually prop the door open with his foot and workboot, under the guise of stretching and getting some air.  He actually was hoping for a confrontation, (VERY type A personality, I never knew him to lose a barfight).  He definitely p!$$ed off this peaceful, druggie blissninny (hey! it WAS a long time ago!) with his actions, but nevertheless, if there happens to be ONE Donny Davies on the road today, that alone would deter me as a bike rider from wanting to do this lanesplitting thing.  I don't condone that kind of behavior now, OR then, but it's like the anti-gun blissninnies who don't want to admit that evil goblins would love to rape and murder their darling children...there ARE badasses out there who'd love to see you eat concrete.

c_yeager, with statements like 'cagers just not wanting to be left behind', or somesuch (I'm not going to bother going back to read it a second time), you demonstrate how lost and out-of-touch with reality you really are.  Nobody I know gives a rat's rump about that, with regard to the lanesplitting issue.  It's just about not wanting myself or my wife & kids to have to witness you become road pizza by your dangerous activity you demand to exercise in the name of "freedom".  Yeah. Right.

[Guest]

c_yeager, with statements like 'cagers just not wanting to be left behind', or somesuch (I'm not going to bother going back to read it a second time), you demonstrate how lost and out-of-touch with reality you really are.

You might want to take the quotation off a statement, the likes of which never crossed my lips. Im out of touch because I said something that exists only in your imagination? Fancy that. It takes one whole button to pull down a quote, if you can be bothered to do that then your opinion is less than irrelevant.

It's just about not wanting myself or my wife & kids to have to witness you become road pizza by your dangerous activity you demand to exercise in the name of "freedom".  Yeah. Right.

Try actually reading the thread before posting sometime, just for a change. Who mentioned "freedom" at any time? You have missed the *entire* point of this thread and every single post in it. It is getting to be tiring.

[InfidelSerf]

There is another aspect of lanesplitting that isn't being addressed here.
And I suspect the reason its a legal and common practice in such large metro areas as LA, Hong Kong, Madrid etc.

When motorcyclists lanesplit they actually reduce the congestion of traffic by freeing up more space for the cages.

Think about that the next time a motorcycle pulls up to you at a light and allows you to make it through that annoying 10.25 second timed signal you have to deal with everyday.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

c_yeager, with statements like 'cagers just not wanting to be left behind', or somesuch (I'm not going to bother going back to read it a second time), you demonstrate how lost and out-of-touch with reality you really are.

You might want to take the quotation off a statement, the likes of which never crossed my lips. Im out of touch because I said something that exists only in your imagination? Fancy that. It takes one whole button to pull down a quote, if you can be bothered to do that then your opinion is less than irrelevant.

It's just about not wanting myself or my wife & kids to have to witness you become road pizza by your dangerous activity you demand to exercise in the name of "freedom".  Yeah. Right.

Try actually reading the thread before posting sometime, just for a change. Who mentioned "freedom" at any time? You have missed the *entire* point of this thread and every single post in it. It is getting to be tiring.

Guess you're going to be enough of a horse's patoot that I'll need to go back and show you your own silly quote, rather than having you exercise enough brain matter to understand intent.  
Okay, Homer.  Here goes...your quote:

This argument isnt about safety, its about people in cars not wanting to lose the commute race.

Doh!

The subject and point of this thread SEEMS to be "Lane splitting".  You're for it (and as such, want your FREEDOM to lane split).  I'm against it.  I've told you my reasons, you've done the same.  Why don't we let it go at that, or do you have some compulsion that you MUST have the last word?  Okay.  Go ahead.  I'll just 'be done' now, and you can spew what you will.

[Guest]

Well gee, I guess you sure showed me, huh? Here is the direct quote you made in the post I was responding to:

'cagers just not wanting to be left behind'

And here is what was actually said:

This argument isnt about safety, its about people in cars not wanting to lose the commute race.

So, you still think your use of quotations was appropriate? here is a handy refference guide for you to peruse before you answere; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark

As far as your "freedom" assertion, thats a big reach, and you know it.

Why don't we let it go at that

Here is why. You made a straw man argument. Which is fine, its your priviledge. The problem is that you decided to put my name on your strawman. You argued against two points that were pulled out of your imagination, which again, is your right. But when it crosses the line into something you get to get called to task about is when you place a person's name on it as if they actually said the things that you are claiming they said, I didnt. You know this, and your trying really hard to play the wronged man, when the truth is that you are trying to start a dialogue that has nothing to do with the issue, simply because you cannot argue it's merits. I dont have a problem with you presenting hollow and flat arguments, its when you put those ill-crafted words into my mouth that I have a problem, and if you think I will simply ignore such hamfisted attempts at debates then you are sorely mistaken.

I wouldnt be nearly so offended if you were actually good at it.

[gunsmith]

man, aps is one strange world! a couple of days ago I wanted to strangle C Yeager and now I think he is the one of the smartest guy on aps.

I do not ride on the shoulder because of dangerous evil gravel lives there and it is for emergengies only, they are really dangerous.

most harley guys don't lane split for some reason, except for the outlaw type biker.

The only street bike race I've ever lost was to a Hells Angel, I had only 25 minutes to get my delivery to court and I was 40 minutes away according to the speed limit. All of a sudden as I was passing SFO on 101 traffic started backing up, the owner of the company I worked for was a crazed right wing gun nut, so I couldn't let him down. I had to get my package delivered.
traffic backed up and I started lane splitting.  A few of the bikers let me pass and  I was behind a bike going as fast as I was.  So I passed him finally by going around a few cars I looked and saw he was flying colors...he looked and saw me on my FZR600 and the race was on and he sped up (I was doing 70 while lane splitting)
I figured if a big harley can split lanes at 80 so can I...but I passed him anyway (I really was in a hurry anyway)

we were both doing over 90 so I stopped looking at the speedometer and started praying  (really, I often pray at high speeds and dangerous situations like that, to remain calm and extra insurance, so if I die at least I'll die praying and I hope that will be looked on favorably by the big biker upstairs)...he finally won, I could have kept up with him, but I decided that he really was crazier than I and would prefer death over losing a bike race.

I've never raced professionally, I wouldn't mind trying.

As I bicycle messenger I would only ride on the side walk to get to the place I was going to lock up my bike.
every day 20 or 30 people would tell me to ride on the sidewalk and get out of their way , those people were in cars. others would tell me to ride in the park, not having a clue that I was downtown working.

I also discovered that californians who are so willing to outlaw gun have no problem with using cars as weapons...

Anyway, if you can't lane split then don't.   It really is safer then staying behind a car sucking the exhaust though.

[Sergeant Bob]

I have only three words to describe the practice of lane splitting:
1. Stupid
2. Stupid
3. Stupid

[...has left the building.]

I'm a fan of lanesplitting in certain situations. Like Veloce said, it is just another calculated risk that a biker takes. I have lanesplit on occasions and I have found that it was safter to take the risk of riding in between lanes than it was to remain near two (or more) oblivious cagers, one of which is intent on occupying my space so he can get to Target. I'm not exactly Ghost Rider, but I've found that lanesplitting has saved my ass numerous times. For an extreme example of lanesplitting check out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5204409681605636120&q=ghost+rider

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Ok, I'm going to look stupid asking this question yet again, but so be it...

If a sidewalk is empty (no passengers or other obstacles), would riding on that sidewalk be any more dangerous or inapproprate than lanesplitting?

[BillBlank]

Bear in mind this is from a british perspective, having driven in the U.S. (now I always get the biggest SUV I can after the first time) I may ride differently there should the opportunity arise to do so.

Headless, like everything the answer to that question is dependent on the context. Police presence, blind entrances etc. To be honest the only time I would feel happy with my bike on the sidewalk is at a time of night and traffic/people density that would render the exercise pointless due to the traffic levels on the road.

My apologies to the other motorcyclists here, the following statements are in no way a reflection of their opinions or conduct on the road. They are mine and were expensively acquired, dropping a sportsbike, even at low speed, cost me on average £2000 to put right.

Lane splitting is down to personal choice and judgement. I've seen other riders do it in ways that have me braking to avoid the accident they are about to cause. On the other hand, I will admit that I am guilty of it myself. When I was commuting 70ish miles a day on mostly dual carraigeway I did it. I used my bikes superior accelleration to minimise the the time spent between vehicles and undertook as a matter of routine if the clearance available was greater than 1 1/2 times a car width and there were no junctions ahead etc., etc. I used my judgement and the only assumption I ever made about the behaviour of car drivers was that they could see me perfectly and were determined to kill me. Combine this with my expensive education, track and road based, the fact that I have no wish to join the choir invisibule and I seemed to get along alright. Only ever had to use my brakes once or twice doing it, the rest of the time engine braking sufficed due to good observation, adjustment to road conditions and planning.

Until you ride a motorcycle of reasonable power and handling you have no idea just how huge the difference is to a car. You have to adjust your entire outlook to it's capabilities. Ridden by a rider of skill even my little gsxr750 will out accellerate, out brake and out manouvre 95% of four wheeled traffic. It is my opinion that these capabilities, coupled with an awareness of the weak points of your bike and riding ability, allow you to progress to your destination in a manner that simply cannot be understood by someone who does not have experience in the field, Rendering their opinions mostly irrelavant due to a lack of a common frame of reference.

Let the flames commence, I haven't been this arrogant and dismissive of the opinions of others in ages


By the way I have experience in lots of fields, oil seed rape, wheat and cabbage to name but a few. Thats why I spent more on instruction and track time than bikes .