Rocks vs. Bullets.

[grampster]

I thought getting your rocks off was not something you did in public, let alone school.

[Ben]

Ben is wrong, actually. "Run, hide, fight" has been the mantra for at least the past several years. First, you're supposed to try to get away. If not, you hide. If the bad guy actually gets to you, "they" say you should throw stuff at him. The bucket of rocks is just an extension of the run, hide, fight doctrine. Yeah, you plan to fight back, but you don't actually take it seriously, and plan to have a gun.

Isn't "run, hide, fight" pretty similar to CCW training? Again, I'm not talking about the rocks vs guns - I'm talking about the philosophy, which seems better than past philosophies, which absolutely precluded any self-defense or any reactive response other than playing possum or full compliance with the bad guy.

We can all take self-defense seriously, whether we have a gun or not. None of us here carries a gun 100% of the time. If your employer bans guns and a gunman comes into your workplace, do you give up, or do you throw red staplers at the bad guy because that's the weapon you have on hand? Which is something you might do as a last resort after running or hiding, because we all know not to bring a stapler to a gunfight.

[MechAg94]

Slings would be an interesting idea if they actually taught kids how to use them.  Maybe they could then give them the improved rocks (lumps of lead) to use.  Then they could teach them how to use the automatic rock throwers that have been invented (guns). 

Can you imagine the turmoil in the local area if an entire school district of kids were suddenly given slings and taught how use them?  The local window/glass companies would get rich.

[MechAg94]

http://www.bulletproofvests.com/ballistic-shield-ALP-SH3.html
I am surprised ballistic shields like this haven't come up.  

Maybe they could also order halberds and spears also.  

[Scout26]

From what I recall of training video, it's not "just throw stuff at the bad guy", it "Throw stuff, then follow it in and swarm the bastard."   Crap flying toward the Bad Guy gets him to stop shooting/duck, which gives the 10, 12, 20, 30 folks in the room a chance to jump the the guy and beat the snot out of him.   15 or so folks sitting on his chest after they've punched and kicked the crap out of him will definitely take the fight of him. 

[Perd Hapley]

Isn't "run, hide, fight" pretty similar to CCW training? Again, I'm not talking about the rocks vs guns - I'm talking about the philosophy, which seems better than past philosophies, which absolutely precluded any self-defense or any reactive response other than playing possum or full compliance with the bad guy.

We can all take self-defense seriously, whether we have a gun or not. None of us here carries a gun 100% of the time. If your employer bans guns and a gunman comes into your workplace, do you give up, or do you throw red staplers at the bad guy because that's the weapon you have on hand? Which is something you might do as a last resort after running or hiding, because we all know not to bring a stapler to a gunfight.

I was attempting to make 2 main points. First, telling people to throw stuff at the shooter isn't new. When I first heard of it a few years ago, I also took it as a positive sign that people are actually being told to fight back. Hopefully, some people prepare for that by carrying a gun, but if a stapler or a rock is the best weapon, then work with what you have. Second, whether rocks or staplers, it doesn't sound at all like serious preparation. Yeah, no one's always prepared for everything, but having a gun (at least part of the time) is a much more practical plan than "well, I'll throw somethin'."

Where the bucket of rocks thing really rubs me the wrong way is that it goes to the extent of actually putting weapons in classrooms, but chooses probably the lowest possible level of weapons technology. It reads like a joke. Schools are dumping textbooks for tablet computers these days, but they want the kids defended with the technology of the stone tablet era.

[KD5NRH]

Can you imagine the turmoil in the local area if an entire school district of kids were suddenly given slings and taught how use them?  The local window/glass companies would get rich.

Glass?  With a golf ball sized lump of limestone from a sling, I can crush 16ga sheet metal and cinderblocks.

Neither of which I was aiming at at the time, mind you...

That would be why I decided not to test a staff sling except at mom's where I can have a ~45 degree clear "downrange" arc that extends nearly a mile.  Worst case, I might take out a cow that was destined to be beef soon anyway.

[K Frame]

In Roman times sling shot projectiles were tapered at each end. Apparently this made them a lot more lethal.

http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=2485

[p12]

Now he is back pedaling and saying he was taken out of context.

School that gives students rocks to repel active shooter to add armed securityhttp://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/26/school-that-arms-students-with-rocks-to-add-armed-security.html

Also blaming increase of them being a potential target due to media hype.

I just wish at some point the narrative would switch to fighting back being higher on the pecking order.


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[Fly320s]

Getting the students and teachers to actually fight back would be nice, but at what age can we expect the students to fight?  I don't think under-10 kids will have much will or ability to fight.  Post-pubescent kids should be able to.

[Ben]

I was attempting to make 2 main points. First, telling people to throw stuff at the shooter isn't new. When I first heard of it a few years ago, I also took it as a positive sign that people are actually being told to fight back. Hopefully, some people prepare for that by carrying a gun, but if a stapler or a rock is the best weapon, then work with what you have. Second, whether rocks or staplers, it doesn't sound at all like serious preparation. Yeah, no one's always prepared for everything, but having a gun (at least part of the time) is a much more practical plan than "well, I'll throw somethin'."

Where the bucket of rocks thing really rubs me the wrong way is that it goes to the extent of actually putting weapons in classrooms, but chooses probably the lowest possible level of weapons technology. It reads like a joke. Schools are dumping textbooks for tablet computers these days, but they want the kids defended with the technology of the stone tablet era.

Okay, I understand your points now. Fly320s also makes a good point regarding what age we should expect "children" to fight back.

[Blakenzy]

Unless you train the children via live fire desensitizing exercises and swarm tactics in simmunition drills, once the first shot rings out in a closed room everyone is going to duck and hide. I don't see anyone remaining in stance to throw a rock. I know I wouldn't, and I can only imagine how shocking the muzzle blast (directed at you, not going away or coming from the sides as we are used to when at the range) would be for someone who is scared and who has probably never experienced gunfire in real life.

Without training and practice, a rock is a useless as a gun without training and practice. I mean everyone always advocates training as crucial and indispensable for the defensive use of a firearm, why should rocks be treated differently?

[zxcvbob]

Unless you train the children via live fire desensitizing exercises and swarm tactics in simmunition drills, once the first shot rings out in a closed room everyone is going to duck and hide. I don't see anyone remaining in stance to throw a rock. I know I wouldn't, and I can only imagine how shocking the muzzle blast (directed at you, not going away or coming from the sides as we are used to when at the range) would be for someone who is scared and who has probably never experienced gunfire in real life.

Without training and practice, a rock is a useless as a gun without training and practice. I mean everyone always advocates training as crucial and indispensable for the defensive use of a firearm, why should rocks be treated differently?

I've been trying to figure out how a PE teacher or coach could subvert this into some kind of self-defense training...

This is not what I'm talking about, but I think it's obligatory after that   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXHsNqkDI4

[Ben]

I've been trying to figure out how a PE teacher or coach could subvert this into some kind of self-defense training...

This is not what I'm talking about, but I think it's obligatory after that  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXHsNqkDI4

Already been done, bro:

https://youtu.be/peUyLXrgYZ0

Oh, and apparently once again I posted before the second cup of joe and thus duplicated the link Bob already supplied. Though one can never get too much of Dodgeball. 

[MechAg94]

Unless you train the children via live fire desensitizing exercises and swarm tactics in simmunition drills, once the first shot rings out in a closed room everyone is going to duck and hide. I don't see anyone remaining in stance to throw a rock. I know I wouldn't, and I can only imagine how shocking the muzzle blast (directed at you, not going away or coming from the sides as we are used to when at the range) would be for someone who is scared and who has probably never experienced gunfire in real life.

Without training and practice, a rock is a useless as a gun without training and practice. I mean everyone always advocates training as crucial and indispensable for the defensive use of a firearm, why should rocks be treated differently?

Give the kids a bunch of ballistic shields to hide behind as they throw rocks.  I am sure an enterprising bureaucrat would even figure out the shields don't have to stop bullets as long as the kids think they will.

[MechAg94]

Already been done, bro:

https://youtu.be/peUyLXrgYZ0

Dodge Rock might be a tough sport.  I think they do make smaller dodge ball style balls.  If they do it right, the training sessions could even be fun.  Even better if they allow them to hang a fake rifle on the dummy target.

[bedlamite]

Dodge Rock might be a tough sport.  I think they do make smaller dodge ball style balls.  If they do it right, the training sessions could even be fun.  Even better if they allow them to hang a fake rifle on the dummy target.

Can't expose them to an image of a gun, that would be too traumatic. They would also have to suspend the students under the zero tolerance policy, because you can't have any kind of violence.

[Perd Hapley]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/28746/pennsylvania-school-district-backtracks-will-now-emily-zanotti

Blue Mountain told a local newspaper that it was shocked by the backlash, but that the criticism made them reconsider their plan. They'll keep the rocks, but they'll add an armed security guard whose job it is to defend faculty and students from mass shooters, and to handle emergency situations on campus.

Better.

[Scout26]

Getting the students and teachers to actually fight back would be nice, but at what age can we expect the students to fight?  I don't think under-10 kids will have much will or ability to fight.  Post-pubescent kids should be able to.

Ever been bitten by ~5 year old ??  Now imagine being bitten by 15-20 of 'em.   

We already teach them "Stranger Danger", simply pivot on that training.