Author Topic: Rechargable batteries??  (Read 3230 times)

Bob F.

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Rechargable batteries??
« on: July 29, 2008, 03:56:55 AM »
Been using Enigerzier AA rechargable batteries in my digital camera. Have 2 sets so usually put a set (2) in the charger and leave until needed or going mobile. Did pretty well for a while but now won't hold a charge at all. Is that from "overcharging"? Or do they just not haver a long life expectancy? There were good while they lasted. Can't find any marking as to what kind of batteries they are.

Thanks.
Bob
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Manedwolf

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 04:12:50 AM »
It depends what sort they are. If they're Li-Ion, they should be kept topped off and not run to zero, as they have a finite number of cycles. If they're NiCad, they should be run to zero and not charged till empty, or can suffer memory effect with a new zero at a higher level, reducing the amount of charge. The type matters.

mtnbkr

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 04:14:19 AM »
NiMH batteries don't hold a charge very well.  I won't use them in any device that isn't used several times a week.  IIRC, the Energizer rechargeables are NiMH.  I had a set, they're crap, as are all NiMH rechargeables.

Chris

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 05:01:29 AM »
I gotta say I've had the opposite experience as mtnbkr, but only since switching to MAHA Powerex batts a few years back. They're also now making some called IMEDION, which aren't as super capacity as the Powerex, but are low discharge batts. I bought some for some work electronics that I use infrequently, and they've been holding their charge between uses very well. I've only had them for a few months, so don't know what their life expectancy is. I have hundreds of charges through some my Powerex batts and haven't noticed any significant loss of life yet.

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/shop/-nimh-rechargeable--aa-nimh-batteries-c-122_104_106.html
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zahc

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 05:17:07 AM »
Probably the best AA rechargeables now are Sany Eneloop batteries. They have good capacity, very low self-discharge and last a long time. They come pre-charged in he package. They are the best of the new 'hybrid/low self-discharge' batteries.

The 2500mAh Energizer batteries from walmart are disguised Sanyos, and are very good batteries. RC people have been building packs out of them for a while now because it's about the cheapest way to buy them. Like any normal/traditional Nimh battery they have a significant self-discharge, but even so they go several months in my cordless soldering iron. I use an RC field quick charger to charge them, so I don't know how long they last with the energizer brand charger.

Keep in mind that most low-self-discharge varients (like rayovac hybrids) have less capacity to start with, so that over the reasonably short term, you are still ahead to use regular Nimh's, because even though they self-discharge, since they start out with such a higher capacity (often 2500 vs 2000), that the quicker discharging normal cells will actually have more capacity than the low-discharge types for several weeks. Thus I don't like the hybrid types unless you need them to be charged out of the package (like the rayovac hybrids that I keep for my calculator backup batteries), or they are going in an extremely long-term, low drain application like remote controls, in which case I just use alkalines anyway. But Eneloops are good batteries.

Practically speaking, there is no such thing as memory effect, even with NiCd batteries. It's practically impossible to produce memory effect without deliberately trying, and with expensive equipment. You should never purposely drain your batteries before charging them whether they are NiCd, Nimh, or lithium. Doing so is just wasting their useful life away on needless discharges.
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Regolith

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 05:19:28 AM »
I've been using Rayovac NiMH rechargeable batteries in my wireless mouse and keyboard for the last several years.  Haven't had to buy a new pack for a long time.

They seem to work fine.  They go for several months in my keyboard without needing a recharge, and for a couple of weeks in my mouse. 
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mtnbkr

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 05:31:25 AM »
Who knows...

All I know is the set of generic NiMH and the two sets of Energizer AA, also NiMH were useless in my old digicam after sitting for a couple weeks.  I used the auto chargers that came with both sets of batteries.  At first I thought it was the generic batteries, which is why I bought the Energizers, but even those failed to hold a charge for extended periods.  I'd charge them up, put them in the camera, come back a month later and get one or two shots.  I didn'thave that problem with lithium batteries.

Chris

K Frame

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 05:32:01 AM »
If you leave a set of NiMH batteries in a device for a long period of time they can "over discharge."

When that happens, they become useless.

I never noticed that warning in my digicam's instruction booklet. When I went to charge the batteries after they had been in the camera for about a year...

Toast.

The ones I have right now are 2200mah Sony Cycle Energy.

I am VERY happy with them. I have a shower clock radio that I listen to while I'm getting ready to face the day. I use it probably 45 minutes a day. On a full charge I'll get close to 4 months out of the batteries.
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Marnoot

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 08:22:46 AM »
I think another issue is those quick 15-minute chargers. I know with mine, even though there's a fan on the unit, the batteries get very hot and I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries are getting cooked, lowering their capacity.

Firethorn

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 08:33:33 AM »
If you leave a set of NiMH batteries in a device for a long period of time they can "over discharge."

When that happens, they become useless.

I've heard that while NiMH batteries can sometimes become so flat that the recharger can't detect them - therefore it won't charge them.

The fix is to slap a bit of charge onto them somehow.  As long as you use DC and get the polarity right the voltage doesn't matter much as long as it's in the neighborhood.  I believe that even the 9V you recently pulled out of the fire alarm when you changed the batteries would work...  You just need a minute or so.

As for me, I'm using some energizer AAAs in my mp3 player - the player takes 1 battery, works for about a month of being used ~1 hour a day, 3 days a week.  I alternate between the two it takes for my charger to actually charge them. 

On that topic, does anybody know of a good, inexpensive, individual cell recharger?  All the ones I seem to find do it in pairs.

bedlamite

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 12:42:43 PM »
Firethorn, the charger I use is the Multiplex LN-5014, It's 12v only, and not exactly cheap. A friend of mine uses one of these, less versatile but has a 120v input and would do the job.


In my experience, there are 2 things that will really harm a NiMH battery; charging at too high of rate, and overcharging. The above statement that all NiMH batteries are crap, is crap.
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DJJ

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 02:53:32 PM »
If they're NiCad, they should be run to zero and not charged till empty, or can suffer memory effect with a new zero at a higher level, reducing the amount of charge. The type matters.

Practically speaking, there is no such thing as memory effect, even with NiCd batteries. It's practically impossible to produce memory effect without deliberately trying, and with expensive equipment. You should never purposely drain your batteries before charging them whether they are NiCd, Nimh, or lithium. Doing so is just wasting their useful life away on needless discharges.

These are in direct contradiction. Now, I have a set of NiCads (Craftsman 19.2V) that seem to be developing a memory: Less run time after each charge, and less time to charge. The last time, the worst one was only a few minutes from full to dead, and the same when recharging. What gives, and more importantly, what do I do about it? Right now, since it seems I have little to lose, I'm deliberately trying to discharge the worst one, by letting it sit for a day, then running it in the drill (it runs for about one second/one or two revolutions and quits). I've been doing this for several days now. They're about 4 years old.

One of Many

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 03:16:00 PM »
All rechargeable batteries have a rated life expectancy, indicating the NUMBER of charge cycles that they will be good for. They may still provide some power after exceeding that number of charge cycles, but it will be less power than normal, and discharge will occur sooner. That is why users should use the batteries until the battery quits operating the device, then immediately put them in the approved charging unit, and let them top off. Once the batteries are charged, they should be removed from the charger, and not left in the charger indefinitely (which many people with two sets of batteries do).

Some battery types are susceptible to damage from excessive discharge, and others from excessive charging. The type of charging unit used should be matched to the type of battery being charged. Not all chargers handle all battery types properly.

Battery powered equipment may still draw power from the batteries even when the main power switch is turned off. Those devices can drain a battery past the minimum level the battery is intended to endure during it's normal use and life rating. If you intend to store a device for an extended period without using it, the safe thing to do is to remove the batteries and set them next to the device. That also protects the device in case the battery case ruptures, or corrosion starts to develop on the battery case.

bedlamite

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 05:09:37 PM »
These are in direct contradiction. Now, I have a set of NiCads (Craftsman 19.2V) that seem to be developing a memory: Less run time after each charge, and less time to charge. The last time, the worst one was only a few minutes from full to dead, and the same when recharging. What gives, and more importantly, what do I do about it? Right now, since it seems I have little to lose, I'm deliberately trying to discharge the worst one, by letting it sit for a day, then running it in the drill (it runs for about one second/one or two revolutions and quits). I've been doing this for several days now. They're about 4 years old.

That will make them worse. What you have is a charge imbalance, each cell has a slightly different capacity, and when you drain the pack beyond a certain point the worst cell will actually reverse it's polarity while running reducing it's capacity by building up a crystalline structure on the surface of the plate. You should never drain the pack far enough to do this.

IIRC, ideally you want to discharge each NiCd cell to .9v, then let them sit several days to equalize, and recharge each individual cell to it's peak voltage. You may have to disassemble the pack to do it, and you may also find that you have a few cells per pack that are not recoverable.

http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/
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zahc

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 03:59:22 AM »
Quote
These are in direct contradiction. Now, I have a set of NiCads (Craftsman 19.2V) that seem to be developing a memory: Less run time after each charge, and less time to charge.

Your battery isn't developing a memory, it's wearing out.

Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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ilbob

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2008, 05:20:23 AM »
the so called memory effect on NiCad batteries is way overstated. it is just plain rare, despite the millions of people who think they have experienced it. what is really happening is that nicad batteries can only be recharged a limited number of times, and each time they are recharged they lose a small amount of capacity. so over time you end up with a battery that just does not hold a charge, but that is not the dreaded memory effect. it is just a battery that is used up.

NiMH batteries are much better for applications where you are recharging a lot.

rechargeable lithium is about as good as they get these days.
bob

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Firethorn

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Re: Rechargable batteries??
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2008, 08:06:15 AM »
rechargeable lithium is about as good as they get these days.

Except lithium costs more for a given capacity and has a definite shelf life(~3 years for the type used in laptops).

They'll lose capacity just sitting on a shelf.  That's part of the reason many people who bought Ipods(with the soldered internal battery) ended up having to get services to have the battery replaced.