Leftist activists call Peres 'criminal' in France

[wooderson]

You have a real tough time with specifics. It's the local Muslim states, no wait it's the radical Muslims, no wait it's the Muslim world, no wait it's only a part of the Muslim world.

Which, you know, tells me that the whole "Palestinians would like, totally, nuke this place ten miles away, and then, like enjoy the support of the local Islamic states in the ensuing conflict" is a load of dung. But hopefully you knew that to start with and are just playing a part.

[The Rabbi]

I dont have any issue.  You seem intent on muddying things. If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.  If you think Hamas isnt getting support from radical elements in the Islamic world (including gov'ts) then you havent been paying attention.  And if you think those elements would cringe at a nuked Israel with millions of casualties, then you are simply an apologist.

[wooderson]

If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.

I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.

The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.

Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.

If you think Hamas isnt getting support from radical elements in the Islamic world (including gov'ts) then you havent been paying attention.

I've never suggested that they're not (though, again, you're trying to blur the line between Islamic states and 'radical elements'). We cleared that up: we're not talking about treatment today, we're talking about treatment in the aftermath of a nuclear attack on Israel.

And if you think those elements would cringe at a nuked Israel with millions of casualties, then you are simply an apologist.

No local state would support the attackers (or rejoice at their actions) - whether you wish to believe that to be an act of simple humanity or an act of self-preservation, doesn't matter.

In a world dominated militarily by the US, and economically by the US and China (which would not appreciate such a destabilizing war) no one could afford to support such an act.

[Manedwolf]

If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.

I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.

The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.

Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.

And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.

What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?

[wooderson]

Manedwolf, you think there might be a reason that Osama and other leaders don't 'martyr' themselves?

You think maybe they treat suicide bombers and other lost causes as pawns, preying on them to advance their own causes while remaining 'behind the lines'?

You think maybe they're like every other political and military leadership group in human history?

Nah...

[De Selby]

If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.

I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.

The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.

Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.

And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.

What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?

So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?

Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?

How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks?  Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?

Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts.  This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.

[Manedwolf]

If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.

I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.

The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.

Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.

And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.

What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?

So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?

Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?

How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks?  Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?

Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts.  This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.

Oh, there you go again on the asinine "christian suicide bombers" nonsense that has been shot down over and over and over.

Keep guzzling that kool-aid, have a nice life.

[De Selby]

If you think that Hamas would not gladly nuke Israel then you are dreaming.

I would like to jump off a 10-story building into a giant pad, stuntman-style. I have no intention of doing so.

The unreasonable fantasies held by a party or individual have little to do with what they're capable of, or would actually do.

Hamas would never "nuke Israel" - because they're right there (for one), and because they would be immediately wiped from the Earth by the US and Israel - and if they lasted long enough, they would be shunned by everyone else in the world, including the local Islamic states.

And go to paradise in the ultimate act of martyrdom, in their minds.

What part of "fanatical" isn't clear?

So how do you explain the existence of Christian suicide bombers in this conflict?

Did they just not notice that their religion doesn't have this teaching, and got swept up in the moment?

How about the communists who participate in suicide attacks?  Is there some new form of Marxism with an afterlife?

Sorry, your theory does not fit the facts.  This conflict is not about religious beliefs, and never has been.

Oh, there you go again on the asinine "christian suicide bombers" nonsense that has been shot down over and over and over.

Keep guzzling that kool-aid, have a nice life.

Uh, shot down? Are you serious? Are you denying that there are Christian Palestinian suicide bombers? 

This looks to me like a cop-out; you are ignoring the facts because they don't fit your theory.  If you don't agree with the facts, I'd be happy to hear why, but it's hard to imagine anyone seriously disputing that there are in fact christian suicide bombers who targeted Israel in this very conflict.  You can verify that for yourself in any source that profiles the perps.

[MicroBalrog]

In the Muslim world (the one that is most involved anyway) there is only one position: destruction of the state.  Everything else is window dressing.

Nice strawman there, chief. No one said every Muslim believes that.

[/b]

So which one of those is it, Rabbi?

BTW, perhaps we should count those 1 billion Muslims.

162.5 million Muslims live in Pakistan, which is, at least officially, a friend of the United States, and receives US aid. They provide more troops to UN peacekeeping efforts than any other nation in the world (10,000 troops as of 2007) and fought alongside with America in Gulf War I.

234.5 million Muslims live in Indonesia. The government works with America to fight Al-Quaeda, and numerous Indonesian muslims have been targets of AQ attacks because of this.

6 million Muslims live in Jordan. They are actually harder on Hamas supporters than Israel is  recently, they prohibited the relatives of the yeshiva shooter to grieve for him in public, which Israel did not do. To quote Wikipedia, "Jordan has consistently followed a pro-Western foreign policy and traditionally has had close relations with the United States and the United Kingdom." Jordanian and Israeli soldiers cross-train on some exercises.

70 million Muslims live in Turkey. Turkey is all but officially allied to Israel.

Egypt is ambiguous  their media is highly anti-semitic, but they are also anti-Hamas, and so far 34+ Egyptian police have been shot or otherwise injured by Hamas. Egypt is also a recipient of US aid.

53 million Muslims further live in Europe.  I hope everybody agrees Europe in general is not out to destroy Israel (though again, the relation is sometimes ambiguous).

151 million Muslims live in India. To my knowledge, never has a major Indian politician called for violence against Israel.

1.1 million Muslims hold Israeli citizenship.

That brings us to 824 million Muslims.

In the meanwhile, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Lybia  the anti-Israeli nations  have a population of 100.5 million between them. If you add Palestine to this (which is a doubtful thing), that brings us to about 104 million Muslims.

So, the  majority of Muslims clearly live in countries that are neither anti-Western, nor anti-American, nor anti-Israeli. There are more Muslims in countries that are friends of the United States and Israel than otherwise.

How does this jive with your claim that "in the Muslim world, there is only one position"?

[Tecumseh]

Anti-semitism (and thats what this is) has always been a disease of the Left more than the Right.

  No it is not.  That is like saying because you don't like Jesse Jackson you are a racist.

Israel should not be on the map because it is not their land.  I am not an anti-Semite but an anti-Israel state as the Israeli people have been abused but now abuse others.

Because I believe this I am anti-Semite?

[Strings]

Hell, it wasn't really ANYBODY'S land until Israel was formed. You're using that as a point for what, exactly?

[Laurent du Var]

ALBANIA
Total population: 3.1 million
Muslim population: 2.2 million (70%)

AUSTRIA
Total population: 8.2 million
Muslim population: 339,000 (4.1%)

BELGIUM
Total population: 10.3 million
Muslim population: 0.4 million (4%)

BOSNIA-HERCEGOVINA
Total population: 3.8 million
Muslim population: 1.5 million (40%)

DENMARK
Total population: 5.4 million
Muslim population: 270,000 (5%)

FRANCE
Total population: 62.3 million
Muslim population: Five to six million (8-9.6%)

GERMANY
Total population: 82.5 million
Muslim population: 3 million (3.6%)

ITALY
Total population: 58.4 million
Muslim population: 825,000 (1.4%)

MACEDONIA
Total population: 2.1 million
Muslim population: 630,000 (30%)

NETHERLANDS
Total population: 16.3 million
Muslim population: 945,000 or 5.8%

SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO (WITH KOSOVO)
Total population: 10.8 million (including Kosovo); 8.1 million (excluding Kosovo)
Muslim population: Serbia and Montenegro - 405,000 (5%); Kosovo - about 1.8 million (90%)

SPAIN
Total population: 43.1 million
Muslim population: 1 million (2.3%)

SWEDEN
Total population: 9 million
Muslim population: 300,000 (3%)

SWITZERLAND
Total population: 7.4 million
Muslim population: 310,800 (4.2%)

TURKEY (Has been counted here but is not in Europe)
Total population: 68.7 million
Muslim population: 68 million (99%)

UNITED KINGDOM
Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)




If I have counted right, roughly, there are 21 519 000 Muslims
in Europe, of which 2 thirds are second generation, I don't expect them to be any trouble at all.
The first generation is still busy to work their backs off doing jobs Europeans don't want anymore, the 1st  part of the second generation is working hard to make it the "European" way and the last half is sucking on the public tit
which doesn't make them winners even amongst them.

For the European muslims like albanians, macedonians and the people from montenegro/kosovo, well recent history was a bitch for them.

I've had muslims, turks mostly, around me for most of my life, they are good people for the bigger part and life is no fun for them. Not in this life anyway.

They are not looking to take over the world to make it look like Taliban Afghanistan, they want to --- damned if I knew....

[wooderson]

Hell, it wasn't really ANYBODY'S land until Israel was formed. You're using that as a point for what, exactly?

Hahahahahaha.

Yep, no one living there. No one at all. A completely un-populated spot until 1948.

[De Selby]

Hell, it wasn't really ANYBODY'S land until Israel was formed. You're using that as a point for what, exactly?

Hahahahahaha.

Yep, no one living there. No one at all. A completely un-populated spot until 1948.

You laugh, but some people actually taket his view seriously.  See "From Time Immemorial", and the sputtering in editorials that followed when it was debunked (as it should have been from the obvious fact that there were, oh, uh, cities there at that time...)

[taurusowner]

A group cannot simply redefine themselves as a new nation and the carve out some land for themselves.  For instance, much of the Appalachian area of America has it's own culture and arguably it's own language.  But they can't start calling themselves Appalachians and then demand the US give them sovereign land. 

A lot of nations have different kinds of people living there.  But when you are in one of those countries, you are expected to follow their laws and way of doing things.  It doesn't really matter how the Palestinians identify themselves.  They live in Israel, and need to follow Israeli laws.  Or get out and go somewhere else.  Simply being different doesn't earn you your own nation.

Bottom line: There are tons of different nations, find one you like, but it's their place, their rules.  If you visit, follow the laws.  And if you actually intend on moving there, become part of that nation.  If I visit Russia, I will follow Russian law.  If I move to Russia, I need to learn Russian, learn to read Cyrillic, learn to love my new nation.  If America is still where my heart lies, than my body needs to be there too.  That goes for everyone.  It seems a lot of people currently in this nation love Mexico more than America.  IMO they have 2 choices.  Learn to love America more, or go back to where their heart remains.

I'm sorry the self described Palestinians are angry.  But the Jews and Israel have had a much harder time through history than them.  I think Israel deserves whatever small bit of land they have.  They don't owe anyone else #### and shouldn't give up anything.

[De Selby]

A group cannot simply redefine themselves as a new nation and the carve out some land for themselves.  For instance, much of the Appalachian area of America has it's own culture and arguably it's own language.  But they can't start calling themselves Appalachians and then demand the US give them sovereign land. 

Uh yeah...but they were living there at the time.  They were asking not to be expelled from their homes, not for someone else to "give them" some piece of land.

Where do you think the Palestinians lived before today?

[taurusowner]

In the previous Muslim nations that had the land before Israel.  AFAIK, those nations are still around.  It's about time they welcome their long lost brethren home.  Problem solved.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

those countries don't want/care about the palestinians either.  they definitly don't want them in their countries.   they are similar to the irish in europe as characterized by the guy in the movie "the commitments"  where he said the irish are the n#$$&@# of europe. the other arab countries are content with the palestinians being right where they are and give em enough cash to keep em there. as opposed to moving em

[De Selby]

In the previous Muslim nations that had the land before Israel.  AFAIK, those nations are still around.  It's about time they welcome their long lost brethren home.  Problem solved.

There are no such nations-the only thing that existed at that time were colonies or very recent colonies, borders and governments created by Britain or France. 

[The Annoyed Man]

Israel should not be on the map because it is not their land.

   Uh, the Jews can trace some 4000 years of their history to that land, which is a helluva lot longer than any other people & country I can think of.

[taurusowner]

All borders are simply a construct of those who have military power and wish to keep land anyways.  This very land used to be British.  We fought them for it, and now it's ours.  Before that it used to be a conglomeration of British, French Spanish and Portuguese.  The Brits took most of it over.  Then it was theirs.  And before then even, it belonged to the Native Americans.  The European countries took it over and then it was theirs.  The modern state of Israel might have been created by the will of the Brits and Allies after WWII, but right after it was created, they fought wars with the surrounding Muslim nations over it.  Israel won.  End of story.  Until they fight another real war, and actually take the land back, the losers are simply the losers.  Too bad for them.

America right now is choosing not to retain it's Southern border, and thus is losing that land to another nation and people.  Israel is simply choosing to keep the land they won and fought for.

[De Selby]

The European countries took it over and then it was theirs.  The modern state of Israel might have been created by the will of the Brits and Allies after WWII, but right after it was created, they fought wars with the surrounding Muslim nations over it.  Israel won.  End of story.  Until they fight another real war, and actually take the land back, the losers are simply the losers.  Too bad for them.

Well, there's one problem with this theory-they still live there.  So what now? Whole races of people have no rights because "they lost the war"?  That sounds suspiciously old fashioned....and from the bad old days, not the good old days.

No state has the right to deny people basic human rights or to treat them as unequal on the basis of their race.  If you accept that principle, this whole schtick about how Israelis fought and won is meaningless, because the land is nearly 50 percent populated by Arabs.

And of course, continuing acts of war on the part of Arabs to retake land are not going to be met (by your or anyone else reasonable) with glee or indifference.  I'm quite certain that when Hizbullah was shelling northern Israel, you didn't shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well-if they win, that's the way the cookie crumbles."

[taurusowner]

The Palestinians are not content to simply become citizens, stop fighting, and just live life.  They demand that Israel leave, and some demand that Israel cease to exist.  They want it so bad they are fighting for it.  And I don't blame Israel for fighting back.  It's their land.  If the Palestinians want to stop getting treated like terrorists, maybe they should stop blowing up buses like terrorists.

If Hezbollah truly retook that land and conquered Israel, yeah, that would be the way the cookie crumbles.  They're free to try, and try they do.  But Israel is free to bomb the #### out of them in the process.

[De Selby]

The Palestinians are not content to simply become citizens, stop fighting, and just live life. 

Well, there is a sense in which this is not correct-they are more than happy to be given full Israeli citizenship rights.  Because that would mean they could simply vote to make the country whatever they wanted, being half the population.  That fact isn't lost on either the Palestinians or the Israelis, and is the reason why some Arabs got citizenship in Israel but most did not.  If every Arab were offered citizenship, it wouldn't be called Israel; they would vote to rename it.

If Hezbollah truly retook that land and conquered Israel, yeah, that would be the way the cookie crumbles.  They're free to try, and try they do.  But Israel is free to bomb the #### out of them in the process.

I see-so if the Arab states ever become strong enough to wipe out Israel, you're all for it...including when they "bomb the xxxxxx out of them in the process"?

Sorry, I can't see how that is moral.  From my side, it looks like constant violence designed to toss people out of their homes is wrong, no matter who is the target, Arab or Israeli.

[taurusowner]

I see-so if the Arab states ever become strong enough to wipe out Israel, you're all for it...including when they "bomb the xxxxxx out of them in the process"?

We are Israel's allies though.  Those Arab nations are/would be our enemies.  That's how the world works.  If they really think that they can build enough strength to take out Israels and it's allies, they're welcome to try.
You seem to be wanting some world where nothing is resolved through fighting.  That's a fine wish, but it will never happen.  Nations are defined through war.  That's how it's always been and always will be.  If the Palestinians keep making war against Israel, I fully support Israel making war back.  And I'm rooting for Israel.  The Jews have taken enough crap from the rest of the world.  It's time they start dishing it out one round at a time.

those countries don't want/care about the palestinians either.  they definitly don't want them in their countries.   they are similar to the irish in europe as characterized by the guy in the movie "the commitments"  where he said the irish are the n#$$&@# of europe. the other arab countries are content with the palestinians being right where they are and give em enough cash to keep em there. as opposed to moving em

cassandrasdaddy makes a good point.  Why is it they tiny @$$ state of Israel has to give up what land it has when there are other Muslim nations all around it that could easily take in the Palestinians?  Why does no one make a big deal about them refusing to take in their own people?  Why is all the insistence that Israel give up the meager land and property it has?  You want a peaceful solution?  Lobby for the surrounding nations to stop funding terrorism and start building homes in their own land for the Palestinian refugees.