Author Topic: I can haz revolooshun now?  (Read 18481 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »
professions like this one tend to take this stuff themselves too  seriously.
No doubt.  There was city street engineer I got to know up in Hoosierville, a colorful character and an outdoorsman.  We hit it off pretty well.  He was darned funny when we were making small talk and joshing around, but when it came to his work he was all business and more anal than anyone you'll ever meet.  He had ZERO sense of humor when it came to professional/technical issues.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 06:09:21 PM »
My late two denarii, but this strikes me very much as Researching-Without-A-License. From what I've seen this fellow made no attempt to actually do any construction work or try to pass off his research and analysis as formal "certified" gub'mint/contractor work. He presented his paper as personal research as to why they should go back and re-evaluate the situation, which would no doubt be conducted by the appropriate "certified" authoritays. If you're no longer allowed to do your own homework where do we get to draw the line, perhaps people shouldn't be allowed to look at multiple insurance options, costs, coverages, and decide which they wish to purchase unless they are a "certified" insurance agent? Or instead people shouldn't be allowed to look up different kinds of tires for their personal vehicle because that's obviously the domain of "certified" automobile mechanics, and we can't have common plebes making decisions that affect public safety like that! I've yet to see where he went and did any "official engineering" for which he would be subject to criminal or civil action.

Perd Hapley

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2011, 07:07:30 PM »
My late two denarii, but this strikes me very much as Researching-Without-A-License. From what I've seen this fellow made no attempt to actually do any construction work or try to pass off his research and analysis as formal "certified" gub'mint/contractor work. He presented his paper as personal research as to why they should go back and re-evaluate the situation, which would no doubt be conducted by the appropriate "certified" authoritays.

Indeed.
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tokugawa

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2011, 08:24:55 PM »
Did someone use the word "competent" in regard to government civil engineers?  Like the priceless crew at the Washington State Ferries who designed a covered walkway to the ferries, and forgot to factor in the weight of the glass? So the mechanism was not stout enough to lift it up and down with the tide?  That sort of competence?  The list goes on and on- in any private sector enterprise, those sort would be fired asap- in a civil service job, probably union, they stay on till they retire. 
 
 this NC episode is about  intimidation, carefully colored as "save the children/public whatever issue".
 
 

RoadKingLarry

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2011, 11:50:58 PM »
Heaven forbid the lowly citizen actually be allowed to scrutinize and question local government.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2011, 12:09:11 AM »
the report musta been real well done to scare em that bad
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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RocketMan

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2011, 07:38:51 AM »
the report musta been real well done to scare em that bad

It occurred to me that the guy who prepared the report may just be a real pest, and the .gov folks are tired of hearing from him. If that is so, choosing this method to get rid of him still stinks.
A politely worded "shut up and get lost" letter in proper governmentese would have been sufficient.  Then just put the guy on the ignore list.
The investigation of "engineering without credentials/certification/degree" thing is just dumb, an over-reaction, since what he produced was not, and never could be, considered an official document.
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KD5NRH

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2011, 08:09:05 AM »
It occurred to me that the guy who prepared the report may just be a real pest, and the .gov folks are tired of hearing from him.

If, as the story states, his neighbors are backing him on this, then it's the elected officials' job to listen.  Basically, they've foisted off the job of telling him, and by extension, the entire neighborhood, to shut up onto an appointed lackey.  Likely, they think this will shield them from the fallout.


roo_ster

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2011, 08:19:47 AM »
professions like this one tend to take this stuff themselves too  seriously.

They take this more seriously than anything, as it is a possible assault on their guild monopoly on that sort of information. 

In the end, that is all this is and the expected result by the guild member.

the report musta been real well done to scare em that bad

Ayup.

Or come up with the actual data and industry-standard results/response that city engineer was trying to obscure.
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roo_ster

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makattak

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2011, 08:44:49 AM »
Not exactly.  Nobody told them they couldn't bring their data before the city for review.  They are not being punished or targeted for bringing their data before the city.

Oh, good, glad that's cleared up.

The issue was always that there seemed a possibility someone was violating the codes of professional conduct that's expected of legitimate civil engineers.  That's what is being investigated, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It is right and proper that matters of public safety be handled by qualified, competent professionals.  You can argue that it needn't be the government that decides who is and isn't qualified, and you may have a point there.  But there does need to be some entity that guarantees competence when it comes to these sorts of jobs, and I think those standards ought be backed by force of law at some point.

Wait wait wait. I thought it was perfectly alright for them to bring their data before the city. Now your telling me they aren't allowed to unless they pay a professional to do it. Gee, that's kinda at odds with your first statement.
 
The only thing unique about this situation here and now is that people are being foolish and getting their panties all in a bunch over stuff they don't understand.

No, I understand it perfectly. It's the exact same reason that our church just had to pay over TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS just to be given the right to make modifications to the existing church building. (We can talk about stewardship here, but this is a matter of trying to be subject to the governing authorities, no matter how stupid they may be.)

There was no misrepresentation, they put forth a report. Should the "professional" engineers have found it lacking, they can reject it. Instead, they decided that no one else has any right to look into their purview and want to enforce their guild rules.

Honestly, you're telling me I can't figure out how to estimate traffic patterns because I'm not a "certified" engineer?
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Tuco

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2011, 01:06:01 PM »
Honestly, you're telling me I can't figure out how to estimate traffic patterns because I'm not a "certified" engineer?

No.  
You're being told that you haven't demonstrated the competency to have your estimates used as the basis for decisions that affect the public's health, safety, and welfare.
Said demonstrated competency is also required to sell such estimation services to the public.
7-11 was a part time job.

makattak

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2011, 01:51:09 PM »
No.  
You're being told that you haven't demonstrated the competency to have your estimates used as the basis for decisions that affect the public's health, safety, and welfare.
Said demonstrated competency is also required to sell such estimation services to the public.

Who was selling what in this article?

Also, if the city has already employed an engineer, wouldn't shouldn't he be able to judge those estimates' value? Why do we hire engineers if they won't look at anything unless it's done by an engineer. What is their purpose?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:54:11 PM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Ned Hamford

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2011, 02:26:39 PM »
Also, if the city has already employed an engineer, wouldn't shouldn't he be able to judge those estimates' value? Why do we hire engineers if they won't look at anything unless it's done by an engineer. What is their purpose?

Self perpetuation of course.   [popcorn]
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Tuco

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2011, 02:40:07 PM »
It really does take several years of full time experience to get a clue, you know.
It's called professional PRACTICE for a reason.   =)
7-11 was a part time job.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2011, 02:41:08 PM »
in working on older house i frequently have to hire engineers when i encounter butchery previous unapproved work. it annoys them when i'll eyeball a situation and say i'm gonna just sister 2x8's onto both sides of the broken one  jack it straight then through bolt it. they get all professional tell me they need to go to their office do some calculations and will get back to me with a report/recommendation in a couple days. i send em on their way with my 400 bucks and in 3 days to a week the report comes back . with a detailed drawing telling me how i need to sister in 2 new 2x8's and describing in detail the number of bolts and bolt pattern i need to use. it sometimes annoys them if they drop it off at the site and find i did the work 3 days earlier.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tuco

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2011, 02:43:56 PM »
in working on older house i frequently have to hire engineers when i encounter butchery previous unapproved work. it annoys them when i'll eyeball a situation and say i'm gonna just sister 2x8's onto both sides of the broken one  jack it straight then through bolt it. they get all professional tell me they need to go to their office do some calculations and will get back to me with a report/recommendation in a couple days. i send em on their way with my 400 bucks and in 3 days to a week the report comes back . with a detailed drawing telling me how i need to sister in 2 new 2x8's and describing in detail the number of bolts and bolt pattern i need to use. it sometimes annoys them if they drop it off at the site and find i did the work 3 days earlier.

You have thereby paid 400 bucks to cover your ass.  Well done.
If it breaks and little children perish in a bloody pulpy mess, you get to point a finger.  The engineer does not.
7-11 was a part time job.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2011, 02:50:16 PM »
oh i don't mind  its the only way to get the inspectors to sign off and it transfers liability to his insurance.  i just chuckle at how serious they get. i've seen what they do. he goes home looks up some values on a chart  adds in some values for live load from another chart and comes up with something that i knew in 30 seconds. we have engineers here that are certified by the local gov that can do inspections that the gov accepts, bypass the county guys. its fun
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2011, 03:28:06 PM »
Oh, good, glad that's cleared up.

Wait wait wait. I thought it was perfectly alright for them to bring their data before the city. Now your telling me they aren't allowed to unless they pay a professional to do it. Gee, that's kinda at odds with your first statement.
You're deliberately trying to misunderstand.  Knock it off.

Once again, the residents didn't get in trouble because they brought their info to the city.  They got in trouble because it looked like they had someone in the background practicing civil engineering without adequate qualifications.  It was entirely coincidental that giving their report to the city engineer is what their possible ringer to light and triggered the investigation.  It could have just as easily been a private engineering firm, a surveyor, or a contractor who noticed the potential ethics violation and reported it to the licensing branch, if the residents had been presenting their report to any of them instead of to the city.

And strictly speaking, the residents haven't gotten in trouble and aren't going to get in trouble.  The licensing department will try to find out who authored their report, and if it turns out that the residents really did produce it on their own then absolutely nothing will come of it.  If it turns out there is an engineer lurking in the background, then HE is the one at risk here, not the residents.  There's no scenario where the residents will be punished for producing or presenting their report.

Who was selling what in this article?
The entire fuss is based on the possibility that there's an unnamed, unqualified engineer in the background providing his services to the residents and the city.

Also, if the city has already employed an engineer, wouldn't shouldn't he be able to judge those estimates' value? Why do we hire engineers if they won't look at anything unless it's done by an engineer. What is their purpose?
Huh?

I'm sure the city engineer did evaluate the resident's numbers. 

The engineering firm hired by the city could have evaluated the residents numbers, too, but that likely wasn't part of their original contract.  They could certainly be re-hired to this, but I doubt there'd be much point.  The engineers already estimated future traffic patterns the first time around and nothing about the project has changed since their first analysis to render the conclusions any different the second time around.

The purpose of  engineers is to make design decisions about the roads we build.  They routinely look at things that haven't already been looked at, that's exactly what engineering firm hired by the city did when they estimated the future traffic patterns and found that traffic lights weren't warranted.

makattak

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2011, 03:36:46 PM »
The purpose of  engineers is to make design decisions about the roads we build.  They routinely look at things that haven't already been looked at, that's exactly what engineering firm hired by the city did when they estimated the future traffic patterns and found that traffic lights weren't warranted.

And the voters aren't allowed to disagree with those estimates unless they can find an engineer that will say that?

Cause that seems to be what's going on here. As you stated before:

The local residents had a chance to do this the right way, but they chose not to.  The city engineer even told them how to do it, and was willing to work with them if they did.  This definitely isn't a "respect mah authority" kind of situation.

Really sounds like you are saying that only engineers should be able to have any opinion of the engineering estimates. I.e. "doing it the right way".
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2011, 03:58:47 PM »
And the voters aren't allowed to disagree with those estimates unless they can find an engineer that will say that?

Cause that seems to be what's going on here. As you stated before:

Really sounds like you are saying that only engineers should be able to have any opinion of the engineering estimates. I.e. "doing it the right way".
I think what you're really asking is why untrained and inexperienced amateurs shouldn't be given the same credence as people with the specialized training, experience, and a long proven track record at designing this stuff right.  The answer is simple: public safety.

Can voters disagree with road designs without having an engineer on their side?  Of course they can.  They often do.  Vocally.

Can average people have an opinion?  Absolutely.

But are those amateur disagreements and opinions actionable when it comes to designing or redesigning public roads?  No, probably not.  We don't design roads and bridges by committee based on the often frivolous, uninformed, and fleeting desires of the public.  We design them based on sound engineering practice.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2011, 04:27:30 PM »
and since the sound designs of the professionals demonstrably have worked so well who would dare question them?!? :facepalm: [barf]
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2011, 05:24:59 PM »
As a rule, the professional designs do work pretty well.

You don't see a lot of this stuff in the US:





Is the building you're sitting in right now holding up?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2011, 05:30:32 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Monkeyleg

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2011, 05:55:59 PM »
Back in 2007 I had a thread here ranting about the city tearing up our streets for over a year, costing us $$$$ and screwing up the look of the neighborhood.

Before the city started, our lawns met the street. There were no curbs or gutters. The city engineer had drawn up plans to have curbs and gutters, which the majority of residents didn't want.

I argued with him for the better part of an hour. His engineers had told me that simply repaving the street was an option. He said his guys were wrong, and that the street had to be dug up all the way down to the sewer mains, the sewer mains replaced, and a new street constructed.

On the curbs and gutters issue, he said they were necessary to drain away excess water that could get under the pavement and, in the winter when there's freeze and thaw cycles, cause  the pavement to heave and crack. This, he said, would mean having to repave the street every five to seven years.

I told him that the street hadn't been repaved in 35 years and it looked good.

As with most projects where public comment is invited, this one was already settled before we were asked to comment. The curbs and gutters went in, causing the neighborhood to lose its park-like setting, and also reducing the width of the street, which meant parking on one side only.

I drove down the street last week. The pavement is heaved up all over the place, and there's big cracks in the asphalt. The street needs to be repaved.  :facepalm:

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: I can haz revolooshun now?
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2011, 06:00:13 PM »
never argue with a licensed pro.....  they know best
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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