Author Topic: Maine steals money, flat out.  (Read 8666 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,200
Maine steals money, flat out.
« on: January 11, 2008, 10:23:08 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22348233/
Quote
Maine: Why let unused gift cards go to waste?
State tries to collect funds in the name of unclaimed property law
The Associated Press
updated 2:43 p.m. PT, Thurs., Dec. 20, 2007

PORTLAND, Maine - Remember those $50 gift cards from Target and J.C. Penney that Aunt Irene and Uncle Harry gave you two Christmases ago? The ones you slipped into your sock drawer and forgot?

If the cards were purchased in Maine, the state is claiming $60 of their $100 combined value under Maine's unclaimed property law.

Other states have used similar laws to tap the value of unused gift cards issued by in-state companies, but state Treasurer David Lemoine believes Maine is the first to seriously pursue national retailers. Keeping tabs on the cards shouldn't be difficult because retailers have sophisticated tracking systems to determine where they were sold and when they're redeemed, he said.

Maine officials say the issue is consumer rights and some of the billions of dollars in unused gift-card value whose ownership cannot be determined should revert to the public instead of retailers.

"There is a windfall of sizable proportions here that Maine law wants to return to the consumers, and that the national retailers want to hold on to," said Lemoine, who has sought  without success so far  to get large chains to pay up.

The retail industry says the Maine law is simply a money grab.

"States have no legitimate claim to that money whatsoever," said Craig Shearman of the National Retail Federation. "This is really a situation where states are seeing revenue shortfalls, and they're looking for ways to put their hands in somebody else's pocket to cover their tax situations."

Legions of shoppers have been turning to gift cards as a quick and easy solution to holiday gift-giving dilemmas. Sales of gift cards are expected to balloon from $83 billion last year to $97 billion this year, according to Tower Group, a research firm based in Needham, Mass.

"They're quick, they're convenient, and they have more cachet than just handing somebody a $20 bill," Shearman said.

Many cards, however, never get used.

Recipients lose them, forget about them or can't think of anything they wish to buy with them. In many cases, the card holder leaves a perpetual balance on the card by making a purchase that costs less than the card's value.

Nationally, unused value is expected to drop to $7.8 billion this year from $8 billion last year. TowerGroup said that reflects growing attention by consumers to the cards' terms and conditions.

Most gift cards issued by retailers have no expiration date, and Maine is among the states that prohibits expiration dates on the cards.

But after two years the cards are regarded as dormant in Maine, and a new law aimed at out-of-state companies says the state is entitled to 60 percent of the value.

After the law took effect this spring, Lemoine wrote to more than 40 major retailers with stores in Maine, including Best Buy, Home Depot and Williams Sonoma, demanding that they figure out how much they owe and send the state the money.

The companies either ignored Lemoine's letters or refused to pay, so Lemoine referred the matter to the state attorney general.

Maine is among more than 30 states that already apply unclaimed property laws to gift cards sold by in-state retailers, according to Lemoine.

Connecticut took a similar approach, but officials there said claims to the money never got far and the provision was eventually dropped.

The 60 percent share claimed by Maine isn't arbitrary. The state is letting retailers keep 40 percent, which equates roughly with the retail markup, while seeking to take the value of the product that never sold, Lemoine said.

"The remaining 60 percent is true windfall, and the Maine Legislature has taken the position that the windfall has been taken out of the consuming public and should be returned to the consuming public," he said.

So far, there's no word on whether the state intends to sue. "We're still looking at our options," said David Loughran, spokesman for the attorney general.

If Maine's claim should wind up in court, retailers are sure to argue that the state is running afoul of the U.S. Constitution by restricting interstate commerce.

Shearman said that if there's a need for laws governing dormant gift cards, they should come from the federal government. Otherwise, he says, confusion could run rampant.

"A consumer who lives in state A may buy a gift card across the line in state B, give it to a friend or relative who lives in state C, who spends it in state D in a store that's incorporated in state E," he said.

The refusal of national firms to pay up has left a hole in the state budget. The Legislature included $28.6 million from dormant gift cards in the budget for the two-year period that ends in mid-2009. Last month, a panel that projects state revenues said that figure won't be met.
? 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22348233/

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 10:28:47 AM »
Okay, that's just odd.

The only law NH has passed regarding those is that they can't expire. Losing some respect for my northern neighbor, there.


Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 10:33:19 AM »
Nothing like government theft.  This is sad, it really is. 

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 10:37:26 AM »
But retail theft is A-OK, right?  If the retailer holds money from unredeemed gift certificates, it doesn't belong to him.  It belongs to somebody, somewhere in the public. That's what the unclaimed property laws are about-an attempt to return the money to its rightful owner, or use it for public benefit. 

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 10:43:44 AM »
Note how under Maine law, the cards can't expire, but after two unused years, the cards are deemed dormant and claimed by the state.

And I'm sure that if you were saving up your Best Buy cards you'd received over the years, and showed up at Best Buy with $2000 worth of cards the state had deemed dormant to buy your new TV, and Best Buy told you the state had confiscated the balance on the cards, and you called the state to tell them about the situation...I'm sure, sure I tell you, that the state would immediately remit to you the funds they took from your cards.

What's next?  Stealing the framed "first" dollar bill that many businesses put on their walls, since they're not in circulation and therefore "unused"?  Confiscating bank accounts that have seen no withdrawal activity in more than two years?

A gift card has as much intrinsic value as a dollar bill, in that it represents n dollars worth of goods or services.  Those goods or services have been paid for, by the person who bought the card.  But they have not yet been delivered to their rightful owner, the one who holds the card.

Theft, plain and simple.  I hope they get their arses handed to them in the courts.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 10:55:20 AM »
The first dollar that many businesses put on their wall was earned.  Gift certificate money held by businesses is unearned.  It isn't theirs until the gift certificate is redeemed and exchanged for goods or services.

capiche?

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 10:58:05 AM »
The first dollar that many businesses put on their wall was earned.  Gift certificate money held by businesses is unearned.  It isn't theirs until the gift certificate is redeemed and exchanged for goods or services.

capiche?

No, the person who bought the gift certificate exchanged legal tender for the store's symbolic currency of value, with the full expectation that the recipient would be able to turn it in for that full value of goods of their choice at a later date.

All this will do is kill the growing giftcard industry and put people back to giving cash and checks in cards.


BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 11:09:29 AM »
The first dollar that many businesses put on their wall was earned.  Gift certificate money held by businesses is unearned.  It isn't theirs until the gift certificate is redeemed and exchanged for goods or services.

capiche?

What Manedwolf said.

The store has received, say, twenty dollars, from a customer, and has provided that customer with a voucher against future goods and services.  As long as the store remains willing, in good faith, to honor that voucher, then the money belongs to the store, and the voucher belongs to the recipient, and there is an implicit contract for future services outstanding.   At such time as the holder of the card redeems it, the store receives back the voucher and renders equivalent value in goods or services.

The card is, in short, a money instrument, and the fact that it has not been used in n months changes nothing.

But all of that aside, are you really suggesting that money that has been unearned and unused is subject to state confiscation?  So if my mother gives me a $100 bill, and I keep it in my drawer for a special occasion, at some point its value becomes the property of the collective?  It's the same thing...a notional instrument of value, that can be traded for goods and services, that was not earned by the one who holds it, devolves to the state if unused for a period of time.

Nonsense.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,650
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 11:24:31 AM »
The first dollar that many businesses put on their wall was earned.  Gift certificate money held by businesses is unearned.  It isn't theirs until the gift certificate is redeemed and exchanged for goods or services.
capiche?

It sure as hell wasn't earned by the government, either.  The government will never make an attempt to find the owner.  Returning the value to the people, my ass.
Damn, this pisses me off.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,103
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 11:31:15 AM »
Quote
The first dollar that many businesses put on their wall was earned.  Gift certificate money held by businesses is unearned.


Only in accountant-ese and when categorizing liabilities.  For the rest of us the money has changed hands and a future service or product is due.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 11:45:53 AM »
Quote
No, the person who bought the gift certificate exchanged legal tender for the store's symbolic currency of value, with the full expectation that the recipient would be able to turn it in for that full value of goods of their choice at a later date.

So companies shouldn't be able to charge 'rent' on unused cards?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 11:51:15 AM »
Quote
No, the person who bought the gift certificate exchanged legal tender for the store's symbolic currency of value, with the full expectation that the recipient would be able to turn it in for that full value of goods of their choice at a later date.

So companies shouldn't be able to charge 'rent' on unused cards?

That's just stupid of them if they do. It'll be the first and last time someone uses a gift card, and they'll go back to cash and checks in cards.

atomd

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 145
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 12:01:05 PM »
Quote
"The remaining 60 percent is true windfall, and the Maine Legislature has taken the position that the windfall has been taken out of the consuming public and should be returned to the consuming public," he said.

Returned to the public....hmmm. I don't think so. That quote alone reminds me of another form of government that supposedly doesn't exist here. Those idiots down in Portland need a wakeup call. We already pay more of our money in taxes than anyone else in the US and now they want to pickpocket us some more. I'd like to see how well this stands up when challenged.

atomd

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 145
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2008, 12:05:19 PM »
If you care enough to send the very best:

David G. Lemoine
Address: 48 Date Street, Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064
Home Telephone: (207) 934-4146
Business Telephone: (207) 934-2170
Fax: (207) 934-2376
Home E-Mail: dgl@gwi.net
State House E-Mail: RepDavid.Lemoine@state.me.us
State House Message Phone: (800) 423-2900
State House TTY Line: (207) 287-4469
Party Affiliation: Democrat
Legal Residence: Old Orchard Beach
Representing: District 20 - Old Orchard Beach
Committees: Marine Resources (Chair), Elections
Seat in House Chamber: 117
Occupation: Attorney
Family: Karen Kane Lemoine (Wife), 2 Children
Legislative Service: 119th, 120th

I do!  laugh

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2008, 12:12:37 PM »
Yikes, there's so much wrong with your thinking but I gotta start somewhere.

Quote
So if my mother gives me a $100 bill, and I keep it in my drawer for a special occasion, at some point its value becomes the property of the collective?

The $100 was a gift that now belongs to you.  The gift certificate money was not a gift to the store.  It's consideration, ie., something in exchange for something.  IOW, the consideration must be mutual, each party exchanging something for something else.  There must be a 'meeting of the minds' (another essential contract element).  The store does not expect that the price of the certificate is a gift; in fact they book it as a liabilty (which means it's not theirs, it's owed to somebody else.) The purchaser of the certificate did not intend to make a gift to the store.

Tha law hates forfeitures.  If the store keeps the money without meeting it's obligation to provide mutual consideration, it has breached the contract.

The reversion of ownerless property to the state is known as the law of escheat. . 

jefnvk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,478
  • I'll sleep away the days and ride the nights...
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2008, 12:19:52 PM »
Quote
If the store keeps the money without meeting it's obligation to provide mutual consideration, it has breached the contract.

Wouldn't that be the case if the store refused to accept its gift card, not if it hadn't yet been used?

Here is a question.  Can I take a gift card and get my $20 (or whatever is ont here) back in cash?  If not, which I think is the case, why is a gift card treated any different than any other product?
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2008, 12:22:53 PM »
Quote
No, the person who bought the gift certificate exchanged legal tender for the store's symbolic currency of value, with the full expectation that the recipient would be able to turn it in for that full value of goods of their choice at a later date.
So companies shouldn't be able to charge 'rent' on unused cards?
That's just stupid of them if they do. It'll be the first and last time someone uses a gift card, and they'll go back to cash and checks in cards.

Actually, companies used to debit the card down to $0 if you didn't use it within a period of time.  My wife found an old Blockbuster gift card that was $0 even though she never used it.  That practice is rare these days, but it was common some 6-7 years ago (maybe longer).

Chris

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2008, 12:26:09 PM »
Quote
Wouldn't that be the case if the store refused to accept its gift card, not if it hadn't yet been used?

Re-read my rap on 'mutual consideration'.  It's not the store's money until they fulfill their part of the contract.

Gift certificates are a dumbass idea anyway.  They simply take good money and sharply reduce its value.

Anyway, I don't have time for this. I have to go outside and cut firewood now.

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2008, 12:36:01 PM »
Riley,

Would it make a difference if I started a reverse tab with Best Buy?  If I went to Best Buy and gave them $100 to put into a credit account for me, but did not receive a gift card, or any other instrument, would that $100 become seizable (for lack of a better word) by Maine?
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »
It is also gov't intrusion into a private transaction between two parties for no good reason.  If someone gives me a card and I don't want to redeem it, why is suddenly windfall for the gov't?
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2008, 01:56:09 PM »
Quote
Would it make a difference if I started a reverse tab with Best Buy?  If I went to Best Buy and gave them $100 to put into a credit account for me, but did not receive a gift card, or any other instrument, would that $100 become seizable (for lack of a better word) by Maine?

After whatever time requirement Maine has.  I don't know what it is.  I think it's two years here in CA.

Quote
  If someone gives me a card and I don't want to redeem it, why is suddenly windfall for the gov't?

Why should it be a windfall for the store or business?
It isn't a windfall for the gov't; they are the custodians of the unclaimed property, not the owners.

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2008, 02:08:23 PM »
What about store credit?  I buy a CD from Best Buy, return the CD to BB, they issue me a store credit.  Is that also seizable?
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2008, 02:38:39 PM »
Yes, those are subject to the unclaimed property laws also.  The time before 'abandonment' may vary from state to state, I believe.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2008, 02:47:25 PM »
Quote
Why should it be a windfall for the store or business?

BECAUSE IT IS A PRODUCT.  And it is an agreement between the purchaser and the store.  The government should butt the Eff out.
Its not public property nor unclaimed property.  Its a product in the form of a store credit being purchased. 
A great example of the government meddling in affairs that they need not meddle in.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Maine steals money, flat out.
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 02:51:50 PM »
Quote
And it is an agreement between the purchaser and the store.

Yes, and the agreement is that the store will redeem the gift certificate for goods or service.  If it is unable to do that, it hasn't kept it's end of the bargain and is a breach of contract.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand.  The store doesn't 'own' the gift certificate money until they perform under the agreement.  If  the gc is never redeemed, they didn't perform so they send the money to another 'holder', who is the state, who holds it forever, or until the owner claims it.