Author Topic: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany  (Read 8672 times)

Perd Hapley

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NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« on: August 31, 2009, 06:40:35 PM »
Quote
In a bizarre ruling yesterday, a New Hampshire court ordered a 10 year old Christian homeschooled girl to attend public school because her religious views were considered too "rigid".

The court-appointed guardian who interviewed the parents and Amanda admitted that Amanda was an excellent student and the cirriculum being used was approved and accredited. Amanda was also taking art, physical education and Spanish classes at her local public school, and her instructors stated that they felt that Amanda was well rounded in her social skills.

So what was the problem? The court-appointed guardian was troubled over Amanda's adamant Christian beliefs.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=24408

If anyone finds this story covered by one of those "legitimate, main-stream" press organs like the NY Times, please post a link.  All I saw were stories from suspiciously Christiany web sites.  Like this one from the Christian Examiner. 

http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Sep09/Art_Sep09_11.html
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Regolith

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 06:48:59 PM »
I don't know about mainstream sources, but a blogger at Volkh Conspiracy wrote a post about it a couple of days ago, with a direct link to the ruling.  The bloggers at Volokh Conspiracy are all a bunch of lawyers and law professors, and they don't tend to be prone to extremism.

I'm not going to say much about the ruling, because I don't really know enough about this subject, but from what I understand part of the problem was that the father wasn't very religious, while the mother was, and the daughter got it into her head at some point that this meant the father didn't love her very much because he wouldn't be able to go to heaven to be with her when they both eventually died.  This was causing problems with their relationship. I don't know if the mother told her that or if she came up with it on her own, but there it is.

I'm still not sure the ruling was correct, though.  It seems it'd be awfully hard to balance this kind of ruling against the first amendment without trampling all over parent's rights.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 06:55:21 PM by Regolith »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 07:05:12 PM »
One hopes it is not the case that the mother is using religion as a wedge against the father. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 07:19:59 PM »
So let me get this straight.

THe girl's parents have a difference between them on how the child should be brought up and the court sides with the father?

It's not the government vs. the parents, it's the court siding with one member of the family?
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Regolith

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 07:29:32 PM »
So let me get this straight.

THe girl's parents have a difference between them on how the child should be brought up and the court sides with the father?

It's not the government vs. the parents, it's the court siding with one member of the family?

Something like that.  From what I gleaned from the volokh conspiracy article, the parents, who were divorced, had joint custody of the child and chose to use an arbitrator to settle arguments about how the child should be raised. They disagreed about how the child should be schooled, and hence the decision went to an arbiter - the court - to be settled.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 07:35:27 PM »
OH NOES!  PARENTS FORCED TO COMPROMISE IN RAISING CHILD, POST DIVORCE!!!111ONE!!  tHE EVIL COURTS!!!!
 ;/
JD

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MicroBalrog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 07:38:30 PM »
As far as I understand, in a proceeding where they determine which of the parents should have custody over a child (rather than when you determine whether to take the child away from the parents altogether), the legal protections a parent has are far more relaxed. I remember reading – on Volokh, again – of a proceeding where a mother was granted custody because the father allowed the kids to watch “Gladiator” and “American Beauty”. In a case where they'd be discussing taking the kids from te family this would not have been at stake.

Am I correct in this understanding?
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Balog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 07:43:43 PM »
Divorced couple going to arbiter != CPS telling you how to raise your kids.
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lupinus

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 07:44:34 PM »
the issue, to me, isn't so much the court ruled in favor of the father.  They had a dispute they could not resolve they took it to the courts.

The problem I have with it is the bases for the ruling.  She was not receiving a sub par education, doing well on all required exams, and IIRC was going to the actual school for certain classes...so interaction with other children couldn't even be considered an issue.  The bases for the ruling is she's to Christian.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 07:47:05 PM »
The father did not want the child to be homeschooled. Why should the right of the mother to have him homeschooled override the rights of the father? Or vice versa?
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lupinus

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 07:49:26 PM »
And the mother did, the child received good grades, and a compromise was already working where the child went to the actual school for the non-academic classes.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Jamisjockey

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 08:09:03 PM »
The court didn't just make up a ruling.

Quote
The mother wanted to homeschool while the father believes she should be sent to public school. The decision has become a court issue since the parents have failed to reach common ground concerning Amanda's education.

They sided with the father.  Oh noes, the horror.  A parent gets their way in a court proceeding!

Besides, for all we know, the child was running around sounding off like one of the Westboro Baptist kids. 

JD

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lupinus

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 08:19:15 PM »
This is true.  Again, my only real problem with the ruling is that the court used Christianity as the basis rather then anything remotely academic.  Just IMO.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

MicroBalrog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 08:20:58 PM »
How is it different from courts making the decision based on whether the parent allows the child to see "Gladiator"?
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Jamisjockey

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2009, 08:54:55 PM »
How is it different from courts making the decision based on whether the parent allows the child to see "Gladiator"?

Gladiator is a stretch.
But the court did say that they thought the religious schooling might be too stringent.  Without being in that courtroom, and meeting the child, we can't speak to the amount of strict teaching this kid is getting.  It might be a little christian robot for all we know, which would explain the father's objections.
JD

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MicroBalrog

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »
Quote
Gladiator is a stretch.

That is an actual ruling a court made.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2009, 10:42:34 PM »
It might be a little christian robot for all we know.


You say that like it's a bad thing.   :lol:
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RevDisk

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2009, 10:42:42 PM »

Holy misleading thread title, batman!

This is true.  Again, my only real problem with the ruling is that the court used Christianity as the basis rather then anything remotely academic.  Just IMO.
 
Ok.  Again, it sounds like the father is less religious than the mother, and would like that somewhat reflected in the raising of their mutual child.  It doesn't sound like the particular religion (Christianity in this case) is at fault, just the level of devotion preferred by the parents.  I'd recommend looking at it from a perspective of two parents disagreeing how to raise a kid rather than attempted religious persecution.  The courts decided to go with the less devout parent in this case.  I mostly feel sorry for the courts.  Any decision they make is guaranteed to piss off someone.  Chris worked Family Court, I'm sure he could tell us some stories...

These kinds of cases are more common than you'd think, as lots of divorced couples of different religions disagree over the indoctrination of their kids.  Not just because two different religions, but usually it's a lot worse when it's two different sects of the same religion.  Growing up I saw it all the time when my friends' parents got divorced.  Parent A wants the kid to be Baptist or Protestant, Parent B wants the kid to be Mennonite or Charismatic.

Most of the time, the kids didn't particularly care about which religion or sect they practiced, they just resented being used as bargaining chips or leverage between feuding parents. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2009, 11:58:44 PM »
Holy misleading thread title, batman!

Yeah, but it's funny!   :angel:
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jackdanson

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 12:06:43 AM »
I'm taking a WAG here, but it sounds like the mother might be a bit of a nutter.  Using religion to push the child away from her father.  This was a dispute between parents, I don't really have a problem with the ruling.

vaskidmark

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2009, 07:58:18 AM »
Having done scads of "investigations" and written 2xscads "reports and recommendations" for a juvenile and domestic relations district court, I can tell you that the sea change in how these matters are decided came about because of the progressive notion that parents who disagree ought to engage in mutual negotiation (arbitration, mediation, est, whatever) and that the courts ought to reserve final decisionmaking for those [allegedly] few cases where the parents simply could not - as opposed to would not - find any sort of middle ground on which to compromise.

These two parents structured the dissolution of their marriage and the way they would handle the legal issue of who is responsible for raising the child to the age of majority by falling headlong into seeing the courts as the final arbiter of personal differences.  In other words, if they cannot agree on how to share and play nice together, one of them runs to Mommy who has to decide for them.  Mommy, unfortunately, cannot have favorites between these two children or they will complain and since Mommy also has thousands (millions?) of other children who will complain if she shows favoritism between those two because they are afraid she will then show favoritism amongst them as well.

The court clearly, IMHO, skirted the religious issue which was phrased as "Daddy must not really love me because he does not do x,y,z which, according to my [the kid's] religious beliefs, are necessary to be able to go to heaven where we will all be reunited."  That issue was posited as causing serious emotional distress for the child.

Not being a christian I am ignorant (and wish to remain so) on the point(s) of just what may prevent one from being admitted to heaven.  However, I am willing to guess, based on the existence of more than one "brand" of christian-ism that there are differing opinions on the requirements and prerequisits.

My guess is that the judge was of the mind that this child could benefit from exposure to other thoughts and positions on how one might be admitted to heaven, as well as different tunes and words to be sung whilst jumping rope, acceptable combinations of items to be placed on top of the pizza pie, and the like -- all so that at some time in the future he would not have to have this mommy and this daddy back in court asking him to solve their problems for them and maybe even avoiding having this child come into court later on asking him to solve her own marital disputes.  To do that his ruling could only have been in the direction of getting the kid out of the house and mixing it up with other kids on a daily basis.

If you reread the order you may note, as I did on my first reading, that there was little commentary on the child's socialization other than "she enjoys visiting with her father's other daughter" and that she "gets along well" with the kids in the classes she does attend at the public school.  No mention of friends, play dates, sleepovers, or the like.  As one who "investigated" and wrote reports I am attuned to the absence of reference to such in court orders - it strongly suggests to me that the absence of any reference meant there was an absence of such activity.  I could be wrong, but am willing to bet I'm not.

King Solomon was tasked with deciding between two mothers whose baby it was.  This judge, on the other hand, was tasked with deciding on how to split the child.  There was no way any decision he came up with was going to look as good.  But, IMHO, he took the best possible of the only alternatives open to him.  Siding with the mother would clearly indicate a judicial preference for her religious views, which he is not supposed to do.  Siding with the father is not necessarily a rejection of the mother's religious views, which he is also not supposed to do.  It does give the child exposure to alternative views - presuming middle school kids talk much about religion at lunch and during recess - and expands her possibilities for social interaction.  All of which are "good" things meaning society in general would not start collecting tar and feathers because he said she ought to "enjoy" those activities more.

stay safe.

skidmark
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RevDisk

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2009, 08:49:28 AM »
I think skidmark just won the thread...   ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 08:58:17 AM by RevDisk »
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vaskidmark

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2009, 11:01:40 AM »
I think skidmark just won the thread...   ;)


Crap!

I was hoping that someone would point out that it has nothing to do with anything I wrote, and then try to prove it.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

BrokenPaw

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2009, 11:22:52 AM »
I was hoping that someone would point out that it has nothing to do with anything I wrote, and then try to prove it.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING YOU WROTE!  :mad:

Q.E.D.[1]

There.  Now you win the thread and get your wish.  :)

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MechAg94

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Re: NH Court rules that girl is too Christiany
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2009, 11:36:25 AM »
I guess this is one reason why a lot of people say you should try not to marry outside of your religion (or denomination?) or at least find common ground in that area.  It might simply a few things. 

1.  Going to public school will likely have little effect on her religious views.  It certainly won't stop the mom from teaching her if she is determined to do so.
2.  If the Dad can't figure out how to explain his views on religion to his daughter, he really needs to get some help (with that or life in general).  Even if the mom is a bit nuts, he should understand that the courts aren't going to be able to help if he wants to expose his daughter to alternative viewpoints.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 11:41:50 AM by MechAg94 »
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