Marijuana

[HForrest]

Aside from the legal aspects of marijuana (I think most people here support its legalization on the basis that prohibition is morally wrong and does not work), what is your personal opinion of the recreational use of cannabis? How do you view it in comparison to alcohol or tobacco? Would you use cannabis if it were legal? What are your general thoughts, feelings, opinions on the subject?

[Stand_watie]

Taking out the aspect of ingesting it by burning it and inhaling the smoke, I'd put cannabis on a slightly lower level of physical danger than alcohol, and a substantially lower level of physical danger to the user than tobacco.

My largest moral quandary about personal use of cannabis is that I don't know if it's possible to use it in small enough amounts to get a relaxation out of it without actually getting high. Maybe it is, I don't know. You can have just one or two beers and 'loosen up' without losing substantial amounts of your sobriety, but every time I've every used cannabis it was an all or nothing thing. One drag got me lip numbingly, giggly, 12 cheeseburger munching, can't drive a car or be trusted with a firearm high.

[stevelyn]

The harm caused by keeping it illegal is far greater than the propagandized harm the .gov says it poses from people using it.

It's not something I would do. It didn't impress me as anything special when I tried it during my teen years. I can't see where it would have changed any.

I'd rather see most people stoned than on alcohol. I've seen far more harm caused by booze than I have weed.

[280plus]

I'm sorry, what was the question?

[Nightfall]

How do you view it in comparison to alcohol or tobacco? Would you use cannabis if it were legal? What are your general thoughts, feelings, opinions on the subject?

Wouldn't use it if it were legal, same as I don't use alcohol. I've always been at a loss as to why people would use a substance that reduces their cognitive functions on purpose. Why would you want to purposely make yourself less able to respond to situations, perhaps more likely to do things you'll regret later? Furthermore, too many people become less than morally upstanding citizens under the influence, so why would you want to place yourself in that situation? As you can probably tell by now, I'm none too enamored with any drug, nor those who use them. I want every brain cell I've got blazing at full capacity during my waking moments.

[zahc]

It's an ok drug as drugs go. Certainly better than alchohol.

[Gewehr98]

Had an honest-to-Gawd Jeff Spicoli character show up at my shop the other day, he was so baked we had the rest of the employees swing by to the front desk to get a look at him.  I was glad that he is only a groundskeeper vs. somebody responsible for the safety of other human beings.  But as I took his 600+ dollars for lawnmower parts and blades, I reminded myself that stoner money is as good as anybody else's money.  At least the guy still had a few intact brain cells left to recognize that the Satellite Beach police department wasn't out in force early on a Friday morning.

None for me.  I sneeze and my eyes water when I'm around cannabis smoke, and my TS/SCI security clearance is good through January 2009. Regardless, I don't see the need to modify my brain with the *expletive deleted*it, I'm just fine without it.

[The Rabbi]

None for me.  I sneeze and my eyes water when I'm around cannabis smoke, and my TS/SCI security clearance is good through January 2009. Regardless, I don't see the need to modify my brain with the *expletive deleted*it, I'm just fine without it.

Ditto.  It doesnt look like a whole lot of fun.  Alcohol on the other hand has a whole aesthetic experience to it that goes beyond the effect.
And I dont support legalization.  I support shooting drug dealers.

[Otherguy Overby]

I came of age in the 60s.

For the most part the government lied to us about drugs.   We knew it.

Since we already knew the government lied, we didn't believe them about Viet Nam, either.

The government still sees little value in its credibility.  It's continued neurotic restrictions on "medical" marijuana in spite of being voted legal in several states is a proof of their insanity.

They demonize guns, also.

A government that lies to support any agenda is suspect.

Seems the government has worse memory problems than Jeff Spicolli.

[Sindawe]

I have no problem with the recreational use of Cannabis sativa or C. indica for those who wish to consume the plants or products derived from them.  I rank its dangers to be less than EtOH or nicotine since both are toxins and as Rabbi noted EtOH is also an anesthetic to brain cells. The LD50 THC for is pretty freaking high (no pun intended).  A quick search turned up this:

The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.

Source: http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/LIBRARY/studies/nc/nc1e.htm

My largest moral quandary about personal use of cannabis is that I don't know if it's possible to use it in small enough amounts to get a relaxation out of it without actually getting high. Maybe it is, I don't know. You can have just one or two beers and 'loosen up' without losing substantial amounts of your sobriety, but every time I've every used cannabis it was an all or nothing thing. One drag got me lip numbingly, giggly, 12 cheeseburger munching, can't drive a car or be trusted with a firearm high.

I think that depends on the persons physiology.  When I sampled the plant back in High School, I did note that the effects could be titrated by moderating the amount consumed.  One draw on the smoking device (joint, pipe, water pipe) would produce a pleasant euphoria on par with consuming one beer for me, while several would produce the spaced out introspection known as being stoned.  This observation was corroborated by others, including my friend who as on chemo for Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma.  One draw would be sufficient to control his nausea and stress enough that he could eat and hold the food down.  On another friend, no matter how much he smoked, he got ZERO effect from it.

Were it legal again I might try it again.  Mostly to compare the effects of actually consuming the plant to those I can produce when I consume in a lucid dream state.

[Art Eatman]

My only comment about government lies and Vietnam is that after it was over, the new Vietnam government laughingly commented that our government's claims about "16,000 men per year coming from North Vietnam" as justification for going into Vietnam was indeed wrong.  It was over 17,000.  Summary:  That was an "Everybody's lying!" deal.

Anyhow, I meddled around a little bit with Sweet Grass in the '60s and '70s.  I quickly learned that one aspect of government control is good:  A standardized "intoxicant level".   That is, you know that 80-proof whiskey is 40% alcohol.  You know that 4.5% alcohol by volume beer is 4.5%.  Mary Jane?  Best luck and good wishes.  Some, you might as well be smoking oregano.  Some, two hits and you're wiped for hours.

I've been around grass-smokers since around 1965.  One thing for sure I've found about those who are heavy users, as compared to booze-hounds:  You can't do business with smokers.  Yeah, be wary of booze-hounds, but they're far more likely to function in business deals.  

If marijuana was legal and free, I wouldn't bother.  I know where I am on Budweiser or Old Overcoat.  I know I can make myself regain control fairly quickly if I overdose on those.  Personal self-control is too important to me to mess with other stuff.

For now, with the legal structure we have, I've told those who talk about the relaxation effect that they're taking chances and spending a lot of money to get their heads where mine is when I wake up in the morning.

Overall, though, this War on Drugs is garbage.  It's a War on the Bill of Rights, more than anything of any practical nature.  Educational efforts about the stupidity of messing yourself up with crap is one thing, but what we're doing is dumber'n dirt.

I had a vice cop tell me one time, "I don't care if folks stay home and stick needles in their arms.  But when they come out on the street they're making it my business."  And the wrecker drivers and EMT.

Art

[grampster]

280,
 I just spit up my RC onto the...er, ah....thingy with the letters and numbers.

I have a problem with government control of any drug.  I think, however, it is proper for an ombudsman type of organization like the FDA to review the efficacy and safety of drugs.  Beyond that, if drugs were able to be sold otc it would force prices down and much of the crime and border (smuggling) problem that illegal drugs spawn, would go away to a large extent.  The notion that drugs like heroin and the like can't be used under any circumstances is ludicrous.  The government policy that says a terminal patient in pain can be denied the use of any kind of drug because it would be addictive, is insane.  I read a study years ago in the National Review that proved that people who used powerful drugs to mitigate pain, quit using them when the reason they took the drugs went away.  The billions of dollars now spent in the"War on Drugs", the prisons, the policing,  etc would not have to be spent; to say nothing of halting the corruption in politics and LE.   It would make our borders more secure as well as they could keep their pot and coke.  Those who use would find it available here, legally.  If the few people who actually became abusers needed help, the money would then be able to be available for rehab clinics.

As for pot,  growing and using ought to be de-criminalized.   Those who wish to consume would be able to grow their own and consume on their own or friends private property.  Should be a civil infraction to transport or to sell.  You get caught driving under the influence, or otherwise causing a disturbance (like falling asleep in midstep) you get your pee pee wacked just like you do with alcohol infractions.

[InfidelSerf]

Ditto.  It doesnt look like a whole lot of fun.  Alcohol on the other hand has a whole aesthetic experience to it that goes beyond the effect.

Well I suppose only a gardner could see or appreciate the aesthetic attributes of such an interesting plant.  
Oh yeah did I forget to mention that it's a plant.  Very much a weed plant at that. KS is covered in wild hemp.

And I dont support legalization.  I support shooting drug dealers.

So you would have supported executing speak easy operators, and moonshine runners in the 20's eh.
(keep in mind I imagine you are reffering to the scum that suck the life out society by feeding on the blackmarkets created by our beloved government.  Perhaps what you mean is that you support shooting violent criminals.  The chosen market they wish to exploit, thanks to the government making it black by banning such item, is really irrelevant. They are violent people that will exploit whatever market the gubermint chooses to assault next.)

I have to respectfully disagree with you there Rabbi,
Cannibus has only been illegal since Sept 1937.  
You would think we would have learned our lesson with prohibition.

How any government can tell me not to do anything with a plant that the good Lord God put on the earth is beyond me.

As far as the medical uses are concerned.  Answer me this...

Clinical studies are performed and determined by trusting the participants to provide accurate interpretations of their bodies. Correct?
Human beings with no advanded medical training volunteering to ingest chemical concoctions and then interpret their own bodies and quantify those interpretations into words so that doctors can then analyse the interpretations in order to determine if the concoction works.

Then how is it the government can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I interpret the effects of anything I choose to ingest into my own body?

[Otherguy Overby]

Historical knowledge shows that a predictable percentage of a population will tend toward habitually altering their consciousness  with some form of chemical/intoxicant.  I recall 14 percent or so.  Of this subset of population only a smaller percentage actually cause society trouble.  

The government arbitrarilly more than doubled the number of criminals in society by adding a mostly non-violent group.   Seems quite counter-productive to me, but what's common sense got to do with anything.

[Stand_watie]

280, I just spit up my RC onto the...er, ah....thingy with the letters and numbers. I have a problem with government control of any drug.  I think, however, it is proper for an ombudsman type of organization like the FDA to review the efficacy and safety of drugs.  Beyond that, if drugs were able to be sold otc it would force prices down and much of the crime and border (smuggling) problem that illegal drugs spawn, would go away to a large extent....

An excellent and well stated point that segues perfectly to Art's point

Anyhow, I meddled around a little bit with Sweet Grass in the '60s and '70s.  I quickly learned that one aspect of government control is good:  A standardized "intoxicant level".   That is, you know that 80-proof whiskey is 40% alcohol.  You know that 4.5% alcohol by volume beer is 4.5%.  Mary Jane?  Best luck and good wishes.  Some, you might as well be smoking oregano.  Some, two hits and you're wiped for hours

The largest criminal problems of the drug war could be alleviated by legalization, and the problems of not knowing what you're getting by being properly manufactured/labeled/packaged and sold in pharmacies or only by those with liquor licenses.

[garyk/nm]

Weed vs alcohol; one is a mind altering substance derived from a plant, the other is a....well, a....mind altering substance derived from plants!
I fail to see the distinction.
Art has a good point; the weed of my youth was such that 2 or 3 joints would get you a good buzz. Today's "super strains" will flat lay you out in 1 or 2 hits.
Devise some sort of rating system so that folks know what to expect, legalize it and tax the hell out of it, just like alcohol.

Just what I've heard, you understand?

Now I need to go find me some cheeseburgers.

[280plus]

280, I just spit up my RC onto the...er, ah....thingy with the letters and numbers.

Ahh, my job here is done...

[Firethorn]

Aside from the legal aspects of marijuana (I think most people here support its legalization on the basis that prohibition is morally wrong and does not work), what is your personal opinion of the recreational use of cannabis? How do you view it in comparison to alcohol or tobacco? Would you use cannabis if it were legal? What are your general thoughts, feelings, opinions on the subject?

Legalize it, Tax it, Regulate it.  It's the biggest source of criminal problems in the states today.

Personally, I wouldn't use it.  Kinda like how I don't smoke or drink much. I average a couple drinks a year, hardly a problem.

By legalizing it, the government turns a net negative cash flow(the drug war) into a positive one (drug sin taxes).  They also gain more control over it, allowing a FDA type organization to make sure it's as safe as it reasonably can be.

[Justin]

And I dont support legalization.  I support shooting drug dealers.

You and Dear Leader Kim both, Comrade.

[Otherguy Overby]

Legalize it, Tax it, Regulate it.  It's the biggest source of criminal problems in the states today.

How soon we forget.  Taxing something heavily tends to create a black market.

Government control of commodities through taxation and prohibition is what creates black markets.  For example, just look at all the cigarette smuggling caused by taxation to achieve social engineering.

[Lo.Com.Denom]

My own short (very short) dalliance with Mary Jane back in my teens left me distinctly underwhelmed. The only time I felt any affect, was with some mystical super-strain that someone had brought back from the Glastonbury festival. I remember feeling slightly lightheaded, whilst everyone else got incredibly paranoid about the police. It also, invariably, made my heart flutter, which I took to be a bad sign and decided against pursuing it further.

Best luck and good wishes.  Some, you might as well be smoking oregano.

Reminds me of a very funny episode of "Spaced"...

Also, of the bigtime drinkers that I know, I can have an intelligent conversation with all of them (when sober). Of all the longterm drug users I know... well, let's just say that I try to keep things simple. As several folks have mentioned, you just don't know how it will affect some people. But I will say this: when a friend went into psychiatric hospital, all of the younger patients in there, including my friend, blamed their mental state on drug use.

Recent studies have drawn a link between weed usage in young people and mental health issues. The UK government has admitted that in the light of such studies, it was rash to decriminalise pot as it did a couple of years ago. Make of that what you will.

Me, I'm ambivalent. I understand why many people want drugs decriminalised or legalised, but I can also see the flip side of why they shouldn't be.

[The Rabbi]

Ditto.  It doesnt look like a whole lot of fun.  Alcohol on the other hand has a whole aesthetic experience to it that goes beyond the effect.

Well I suppose only a gardner could see or appreciate the aesthetic attributes of such an interesting plant.  
Oh yeah did I forget to mention that it's a plant.  Very much a weed plant at that. KS is covered in wild hemp.

Let me flesh this out a bit.

Take bourbon.  It is an all-American spirit.  It was invented here and we are still the only producers.  Each brand has its own history, its own recipe, and its own taste.  Visiting a distillary is a fun experience and talking with a bourbon devotee is like talking to someone into classical music.  An entire vocabulary.  There is a famous bourbon festival in Bardstown once  a year and it is quite an event.  The color, smell, taste and alcohol content all vary and all add to the experience.  Even if there were no alcohol in Bourbon I would still drink it.
Only a philistine could compare an experience like that with sitting around a stinky bong getting stoned and listening to Alice in Chains.

You and Dear Leader Kim both, Comrade.

But they don't have  a drug problem there.

[Justin]

Me, I'm ambivalent. I understand why many people want drugs decriminalised or legalised, but I can also see the flip side of why they shouldn't be.

My interest in seeing drugs decriminalized has nothing to do with wanting to partake and everything to do with living in a society where no-knock raids are illegal and the police don't own armored personnel carriers festooned with machineguns.

We now live in a society where MD's prescribe doses of pain killers not based on what will be most effective for the patient, but based on what will keep them from getting in trouble with the DEA.

In many states now, you have to sign a sheet of paper when buying cold medicine, and there's talk of mandating that this be upgraded to a federal computer-based information network.

Every gun-control law that gets proposed is touted as banning guns that are "the choice of drug dealers."

The list of abuses in the name of the so-called War on Drugs would probably go from here to the moon, and yet they can't even keep Johnny the 15-year old wastoid from getting a dimebag.

The entire War on Drugs is utterly beyond pointless.

[Justin]

But they don't have  a drug problem there.

That you know of.

But I guess that if it's such a wonderful thing, then perhaps you ought to move to North Korea.  I hear it's quite balmy in the summer and that Dear Leader pens some stupendously wonderful operas.

[Monkeyleg]

Between 1968 and 1974 or so, I smoked a lot of grass. A lot. Two things got me to quit:

One was when I had a "bad trip" on LSD. After that, I couldn't even smoke pot without getting paranoid. I realized later that the paranoia wasn't because of the drugs per se, but because I was beginning to have anxiety attacks, a problem that haunted me for years after.

The other reason was that smoking that much grass was sapping my motivation. If I was to become the professional photographer I wanted to be, I needed every bit of ambition I could muster.

There are people I knew from that era who are still stoned all the time. And they haven't achieved anything. One friend told me that he'd finally quit, because he realized--at age 56--that it was keeping him from achieving his goals.

All of that said, I'm 100% fine with legalization. My BIL just got out of jail two days ago after serving a six-month sentence. He said that many of the guys in there were serving time for possession of an ounce or two of pot. That's just wrong.