Where "respect my authoritah" and "officer safety" meet

[Blakenzy]

http://www.ksn.com/content/news/also/story/Police-shoot-and-kill-double-amputee/MyFGC8_0r0asGlTM_VJodg.cspx

Well maybe the guy was an ex-Jason Bourne?

 

[AZRedhawk44]

That's when police said five-year veteran Matthew Marin fired his gun at Claunch, shooting him in the head.

Head shot.

That's pretty deliberate.  Not reflexive out of ossifer safety.  It's a damned hard target to hit against a bobbing adversary.  High risk shot.

[Boomhauer]

Wheelchair dude was trying to stab the officer. This officer had a shoot in the past, too- shot a guy who was stabbing his neighbor back in '09.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Folk get persnickety about stabbing

[tokugawa]

Folk get persnickety about stabbing
[/quote

'Specially with an assault pen. Damn things oughta be outlawed.
 
Just calling 911 these days is damn dangerous.

[Boomhauer]

First of all, the officer didn't know it was a pen. Second of all, with a pen you can still stab somebody pretty damn good. You want to go wrestle in the dark with somebody trying to stab you with an unknown object? Go right on ahead...

You know, not trying to stab the officer with an object is likely a much better choice than trying to stab the officer with anything.

[vaskidmark]

The shooter was not the one the guy in the wheelchair was attempting to stab.  The shooter was acting as back-up/cover officer and reacted to seeing the wheelchair guy do something to the primary officer.  From what little actual facts I can find about the scene and what was happening it seems the primary officer was not in a position to just step away from wheelchair guy.

Most folks at this point are Monday-morning quarterbacking the incident rather than trying to understand what happened and determine why the two cops did what they did.  Hopefully the legal process they find themselves in will try to do that instead of Monday-morning quarterbacking.  Sadly, I have a very low expectation of that happening.

stay safe.

[HankB]

Everyone's a Monday morning quarterback . . . and yes, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty - including police officers involved in shootings.

I've heard some officers vigorously defending the cop's actions . . . including one who's now a commentator on the local radio scene.

But let me pose this question, aimed at sworn Law Enforcement Officers:

If I, as an able bodied, reasonably fit Texas Concealed Handgun License holder, while accompanied by a second person of the same general type, shoot and kill a one-armed, one-legged man in a wheelchair who's only armed with a pen, exactly how will you treat me if you're the responding officer, when I claim self defense?

Since I don't carry a badge, under these circumstances what kind of treatment could I expect from the criminal justice system, for head-shooting an unarmed cripple in a wheel chair?

[brimic]

Hmm, a guy in a wheelchair should have made an easy taser target.

[Scout26]

Hmm, a guy in a wheelchair should have made an easy taser target.

Nah, too risky, might kill him....

[slugcatcher]

Nah, too risky, might kill him....

Actually it's against HPD policy to taser an armed suspect.  I heard the police chief state that the other day when discussing the incident with the media.  A lot of departments have this policy.  I remember when tasers were bought that their purpose was to minimize police shootings and save the lives of both police officers and suspects.  I will say this is the first I've heard of there being two officers on scene and I've had to listen to the local radio/tv reports constantly since it happened.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

schizoid folks can be a handful. on 2 separate occasions i thought i might have to kill lil bro before he got regular with meds.

[roo_ster]

Everyone's a Monday morning quarterback . . . and yes, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty - including police officers involved in shootings.

I've heard some officers vigorously defending the cop's actions . . . including one who's now a commentator on the local radio scene.

But let me pose this question, aimed at sworn Law Enforcement Officers:

If I, as an able bodied, reasonably fit Texas Concealed Handgun License holder, while accompanied by a second person of the same general type, shoot and kill a one-armed, one-legged man in a wheelchair who's only armed with a pen, exactly how will you treat me if you're the responding officer, when I claim self defense?

Since I don't carry a badge, under these circumstances what kind of treatment could I expect from the criminal justice system, for head-shooting an unarmed cripple in a wheel chair?

This.

[Boomhauer]

Actually it's against HPD policy to taser an armed suspect.  I heard the police chief state that the other day when discussing the incident with the media.  A lot of departments have this policy.  I remember when tasers were bought that their purpose was to minimize police shootings and save the lives of both police officers and suspects.  I will say this is the first I've heard of there being two officers on scene and I've had to listen to the local radio/tv reports constantly since it happened.

That policy is to prevent a do-gooder cop from trying to less lethally subdue an attacker that should be shot in the first place (a good example is a mope with a gun waving it around and refusing to drop it- shoot with bullets, not a taser or pepper spray). If someone's trying to kill you, with you being either a cop or non-LE, then you don't need to be trying for a less-lethal or non-lethal option. The threat needs to be decisively neutralized ASAP.

A good time for a taser is when you're trying to subdue a combative person who does not have a deadly weapon in his hand and there is some distance between you and the guy. less threat of a gun grab attempt or sudden stick of a sharp instrument, more of a chance to knock the guy out of the fight without resorting to harsher means.

[seeker_two]

Would the Tueller Drill apply here?

[MechAg94]

Would the Tueller Drill apply here?

I don't know. The distance would need to be reviewed. 

Since he had the one officer penned against the wall stabbing at him with "something", I can see why the gun was used.  The only way i see a taser as useful is if he was still at some distance and the backup guy had a gun. 

[Boomhauer]

Would the Tueller Drill apply here?

Remember the Tueller drill is not a rule of any type and should not be used as such, it's a demo of how fast someone can get to you and start *expletive deleted* you up before you can react and defend even if they seem to be "at a distance". You average indoor residential situations are usually going to be within those distances.

[Blakenzy]

This sounds too much like "I shot him because it was convenient and I can get away with it; I've done it before".

The disparity of force here is off the charts.

[MechAg94]

This sounds too much like "I shot him because it was convenient and I can get away with it; I've done it before".

The disparity of force here is off the charts.

IMO, that is only first glance perception "OMG, a double amputee was shot". 

The normal handler couldn't handle him and called the cops.  So he wasn't just a weak old man.  If it turned out he really had a knife and cut on the cop, what would you say then? 

[purequackery]

Wouldn't that be a perfect scenario for using a baton?

[vaskidmark]

Wouldn't that be a perfect scenario for using a baton?

Pure speculation here, but if the primary officer could not back away/fend off/defend with the baton I'm betting the covering officer, who was the one who shot, could not get in there effectively.

Yes, on the surface shooting a double amputee in a wheelchair because he may or may not have been stabbing (or stabbing at) the other cop sounds bad.  It is not until you start pulling the situation apart and seeing why easily proposed alternative responses may not have been viable that you can come to any conclusion about the appropriateness of the action.  And we are woefully lacking in facts to be able to do that.

stay safe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

batons are not pc anymore

[MechAg94]

batons are not pc anymore

Do they even routinely carry them anymore? 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

yea  just not allowed to use them outside of very narrow parameters and techniques.   kinda denatured

[gunsmith]

I once stopped a guy in a wheelchair from mugging an elderly lady in San Francisco, I was very tempted to take his chair-or at least dump him out of it.