Author Topic: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy  (Read 5670 times)

Manedwolf

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Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« on: March 21, 2008, 12:20:01 PM »
RealID can be faked by bribed insiders just like visas are issued by bribed insiders. And if it's implicitly trusted, all it does is make us less secure, while simultaneously putting law-abiding citizens at the mercy of lowest-bidder database errors that could make their life into hell.

And I'll be damned if I'm ever going to present a passport to enter a federal building or national park. They're supposed to be MINE.

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NH, federal government at odds over Real ID

Washington, D.C.  Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff rebuked lawmakers Friday for seeking to stall new rules on driver's licenses that could cause big headaches for air travelers starting in May.

Federal authorities are currently at a standoff with a handful of states over a law called Real ID, which would require new security measures for state-issued driver's licenses.

New Hampshire has asked to be exempted, but homeland security officials do not view that letter as a legally acceptable request, so the Granite State has not received an extension.

Gov. John Lynch's spokesman, Colin Manning, said Friday that New Hampshire has not received a response from the federal government.

South Carolina, Maine, and Montana are the only other states that have not sought extensions to comply, or already started toward compliance with Real ID, which was passed after the 2001 terror attacks on New York and Washington.

Chertoff has warned that if holdout states do not send a letter by the end of March seeking an extension, come May, residents of such states will no longer be able to use their driver's licenses as valid ID to board airplanes or enter federal buildings.

Such travelers would instead have to present a passport or be subjected to secondary screening.

Five senators  Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine, Jon Tester and Max Baucus of Montana, and John Sununu of New Hampshire  appealed to Chertoff last week to exempt all 50 states from the looming deadline.

Chertoff responded Friday that it was not he, but Congress who picked the date when the law went into effect in 2005.

"You may disagree with the foregoing law, but I cannot ignore it," Chertoff said in the letter.

The law, he said, is necessary for national security according to recommendations from the commission that studied the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

"Secure identification is a cornerstone of protecting our communities," he said.

The nation's top homeland security official also offered a blunt warning to those critics who claim the government is bluffing when it says it will impose harsher security reviews in states that do not seek an extension from the Real ID law.

"Showing up at the airport with only a driver's license from such a state will be no better than showing up without identification," he wrote. "No doubt this will impel many to choose the inconvenience of traveling with a passport."

Chertoff has offered a plan to gradually implement Real ID requirements over a period of ten years, so that eventually all driver's licenses would have several layers of security features to prevent forgery. They would also be issued only after a number of identity checks, including immigration status and verification of birth certificates.

Critics of the plan say it is too expensive, an invasion of privacy, and won't actually make the country safer.

The most outspoken, Montana Democratic Gov. Brian Schweitzer, has said the federal government can "go to hell." He argues that Real ID won't work and the Bush administration won't be around long enough to prove it.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=87c2b1b2-1d9e-4141-8d6a-99af2a030c98

grampster

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 12:35:34 PM »
Hah.  When I e-mailed my two state legislators regarding Real ID, and asked that they join in the opposition, one never even got back with me and the other didn't even know what I was talking about.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Manedwolf

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 12:44:42 PM »
As to their "security", there's this bit of egg on the fed's face today. I hope someone asks Chertoff about it regarding RealID.

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The U.S. State Department said Friday that the passport files of all three remaining presidential candidates had been improperly breached by contract workers. 

Hah!

erictank

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 05:41:54 AM »
Montana's governor literally bet the ranch - his own - that DHS will not hold to their May 11th deadline: http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=7767404&nav=menu227_6/global/ad.asp?type=core  grin.  Gov. Schweitzer also basically told DHS to get bent WRT RealID: http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/03/montana-gov-dhs.html   

Which DHS responded to with... an unasked-for extension for compliance for the state of MT.   rolleyes

I wish Kaine (VA governor) would do likewise, but there's no way he would - he'll justify compliance on the number of VA residents who couldn't report to work for the government on May 11th if their driver's licenses weren't RealID compliant.  angry

Paddy

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 06:08:31 AM »
Y'all don't unnerstand.  The evildoers are everywhere.  There's a global war on terra.  We're locked in the fight of our lives, and desperate times require desperate measures.  It sounds like y'all are trying to undermine the war effort.  Why are you invested in defeat?

RealGun

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 09:35:39 AM »
I think that being overly critical of RealID requires that one come equipped with a better, well articulated idea.

Manedwolf

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 09:45:21 AM »
I think that being overly critical of RealID requires that one come equipped with a better, well articulated idea.

So you'd rather we implement a flawed solution that can make us LESS secure and cause hassle and problems for law-abiding citizens, rather than maintain the status quo until something better is found?

Wow. I thought rushing into flawed ideas was the Democrat parvenue.

And since when is the fed literally blackmailing the states okay?

erictank

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 10:10:08 AM »
I think that being overly critical of RealID requires that one come equipped with a better, well articulated idea.

Good thing you can't really be "overly" critical of RealID, then, Isn't it?  Besides, one need not have a "better" idea to recognize the flaws in a poor one.

ID does NOT equal security. angry

RealGun

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 10:43:38 AM »
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So you'd rather we implement a flawed solution that can make us LESS secure -manedwolf

Whether it can make us less secure is not a fact.

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and cause hassle and problems for law-abiding citizens, - manedwolf


What change that was particularly useful would not be some hassle or involve some problems that citizens would certainly notice?

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rather than maintain the status quo until something better is found? - manedwolf


Yes, I am in favor of taking our best shot rather than taking years just talking or waiting for a schedule to talk. The best way not to get something done is to attempt by committee.

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Wow. I thought rushing into flawed ideas was the Democrat parvenue. -manedwolf


Well, that puts a stink on it, doesn't it.


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And since when is the fed literally blackmailing the states okay? - manedwolf

I don't like the implementation. I think it should become unconstitutional for Congress to use funding as authority over States, implicit or explicit, direct or indirect, no loopholes. But you cannot say REALID is no good because the US government sucks. You have to do something within the framework you have.

Manedwolf

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 11:00:32 AM »
Oh, right. I remember you from THR.

You snap to attention and salute absolutely anything any member of fedgov does, thaaaat's right.
If you choose to ignore the countless articles and studies as to how RealID is nothing but thumbsucking security using the same lowest-bidder pile-of-crap databases that screw up records now, that's your choice. It's all out there in print. Imagine the hassle of DMV, but taken to an office thousands of miles away, with a backlog of half a year to fix errors caused by people who could care less. That's RealID. It's bigger government. Bigger government never solved anything.

You know, Once Upon a Time, when someone came up with a flawed, asinine or otherwise bad plan, conservatives were the ones who stood up and asked WHY the change would be better than the status quo, if the status quo is not broken. They demanded proof that the change would have positive benefits that would outweight the drawbacks. If they didn't, there was absolutely no reason to change the status quo. Especially if it'd cost a whole lot of money that we need to save, not waste.

Just something to think about. That's the sort of conservative I am.

And Chertoff is an incompetent thug who needs to be fired.

RealGun

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 11:28:31 AM »
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You snap to attention and salute absolutely anything any member of fedgov does, thaaaat's right. manedwolf



Strawman, among other logical fallacies. Armed Impolite Society. Demonstrates why these blowhard discussions no longer are hosted on THR proper.

One thing that is true is that I will not find fault merely because it is the government or someone in authority. I try to be objective.

It is still a tried and true axiom that if you must be critical, you need to, at the same time, offer a better idea.

I believe the root question was how to stop hospitals in AZ from being free medical clinics for illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. RealID was simply addressing that with a broad brush. The AZ question was McCain's political interest in passage of Real ID.

None of this sort of thing will ever be right, until the federal government's areas of logical and practical authority over the States is clearly stated in law, no workarounds yielding the same result by abusing the law and the legal process. Right now I think people are confused about whether they hate the idea of the act or the way in which the idea is "legally" implemented.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 04:19:18 PM »
so someone in montana , as opposed to new england, correct me if i'm wrong. but doesn't montana already implement most if not all the requirements foisted upon us by "real id" . aside from sending all the data to the feds. and if anyones tin foil is so tight as to make them think the feds can't/don't already have access let me know, we'll send some tin snips

Manedwolf

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2008, 04:27:04 PM »
Um. You think ID cards will stop illegals from using hospitals?

Hospitals can't turn anyone away. Illegal or not.

Increase the penality for identity theft and make it into the federal felony it should be, and the problem will go away.

 

Paddy

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2008, 05:06:28 PM »
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And Chertoff is an incompetent thug who needs to be fired.

That's hilarious coming from you, considering who his Capo di tutti capi is.  laugh

MicroBalrog

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2008, 10:18:06 PM »
America, is Fighting A Holy War Not Only For Our Own National Survival But For The Survival Of Western Civilization Against Radical Islamofascist Terrorist Fundamentalist Extremists Who Hate Us And Our Freedom And Democracy And Who Want To Take Away That Freedom And Democracy And Undermine Our Very Way Of Life And KILL US ALL!

Therefore you must not question the sacred Real ID
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Finch

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2008, 12:32:05 AM »
I don't know why people are so up in arms about this. I mean, in order to get one of these REAL ID's, you need a birth certificate. Stuff like that can't be forged. Hell, even Guiliani says it is tamper proof, and Guiliani was there on 9/11, he would know.

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You know, Once Upon a Time, when someone came up with a flawed, asinine or otherwise bad plan, conservatives were the ones who stood up and asked WHY the change would be better than the status quo, if the status quo is not broken.

<cough>Like the invasion of Iraq</cough>


...I had too.  cool
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

erictank

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2008, 07:00:59 AM »
so someone in montana , as opposed to new england, correct me if i'm wrong. but doesn't montana already implement most if not all the requirements foisted upon us by "real id" . aside from sending all the data to the feds. and if anyones tin foil is so tight as to make them think the feds can't/don't already have access let me know, we'll send some tin snips

Oh no, NH is definitely getting in Skeletor's face over it too, no question (I think there are 4 or 5 states in total which have officially said, in some way, "We're not playing your reindeer games, DHS.")- my post was a "Here's what someone else is doing to fight this idiocy," kind of thing, rather than a "No, you're wrong, here's who's doing it."  Yes, according to what I've read, MT is actually already doing most of what DHS wants with their state-issued IDs (and Gov. Schweitzer pointed that out in one of his recent press conferences), but the MT state government is fighting the notion that sending all that data in to bureaucrats in some central national repository - the same people who've lost control of *MILLIONS* of peoples' personal information over the past few years alone! - is the right way to increase data security, and they're fighting against what is nothing more or less than federal blackmail aimed at forcing compliance.  Both worthy reasons for opposing "RealID", IMO.

Make my tin snips the big kind - my noggin's a touch on the large size, and it'll make it easier to get the hat cut out quickly.  Thanks grin.

Waitone

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2008, 02:18:58 PM »
SC's objection is based on the costs, not the principles.  Congress did what congress does and that is pass an unfunded mandate.  SC's governor said, "They can pay for it if they want it."
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
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Tecumseh

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2008, 07:44:56 PM »
I think that being overly critical of RealID requires that one come equipped with a better, well articulated idea.

So you'd rather we implement a flawed solution that can make us LESS secure and cause hassle and problems for law-abiding citizens, rather than maintain the status quo until something better is found?

Wow. I thought rushing into flawed ideas was the Democrat parvenue.

And since when is the fed literally blackmailing the states okay?
  This is George Bush's answer.  His administration supports this.  Are you against the war on terror?  We are trying to win?  We need to stop the terrorists. 

wideym

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2008, 12:13:26 AM »
The additional screening of travelers from states who do not comply with RealID and those without a passport will be so burdensome that eventually Chertoff will back down. 

He wants states to pay for RealID and when the DHS has to hire more screeners to meet the demand of non-compliant travelers, congress probably won't augment DHS's budget and will repeal RealID.

oldfart

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2008, 08:08:19 AM »
"It is still a tried and true axiom that if you must be critical, you need to, at the same time, offer a better idea."

Blaaaap... blaaaap... blaaaap.  Wrong!

It may be an axiom in YOUR mind but in real life anyone can criticize anything or anyone at any time without offering anything like a better idea.  It happens all the time in places as diverse as the local tavern or Congress.

LAK

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 10:24:53 PM »
I have "a better articulated idea".

Put a complete stop, nay, completely destroy this corporate-government information racket. I mean burn it. And reinstate a strictly government controlled and operated database in a closed system - backed up with hardcopy files in a round the clock occupied facility, with access by a shortlist of agencies for one of only a few reasons.

If it slows things down - too bad. This insanity of has got to end; we are headed toward, or have arrived at, an information swamp as compromized as about any other third world nation.

We need a moratorium on all immigration, a thorough house cleaning, during which everyone not in the social security database needs to be closely investigated to determine their citizenship status, visa status etc. 

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mike

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 06:54:42 AM »
"Stuff like that can't be forged." LOL rolleyes There is nothing on the planet that can't be forged if given enough time and money! sad

Tuco

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 08:43:03 AM »
And since when is the fed literally blackmailing the states okay?

A recent example would be federally-mandated speed limits as a prerequisite for state access to federal transportation dollars.
Montana fought the good fight there, too.
7-11 was a part time job.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Staring Down Skeletor...defying Chertoff's RealID idiocy
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 12:48:55 PM »
that can make us LESS secure


how so?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I