Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on January 18, 2011, 12:01:02 AM
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I may want one, not because I need it but just so I can say I have it. I was never impressed with the other .410/.45LC judge ... but 28 gauge? whoa....
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/362/314/Taurus_Introduces_the_Raging_Judge_in_New_Caliber.html
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Link didn't work. Here's a peek:
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=5980&cpage=1
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So is it a NFA "Any Other Weapon" since 28 gauge is over .50", or do they cheat a little and the barrel is just .495"? (I always thought 32 gauge made more sense than .410 for a car gun.)
BTW, I don't like Taurus, and I don't particularly like .410, but I kind of want a "Circuit Judge"
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Hate Taurus. Anyone want to buy a POS .22 mag revolver that JAMS? ;)
I was so happt whaen I got that thing, then I tried shooting it. [barf]
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Hate Taurus. Anyone want to buy a POS .22 mag revolver that JAMS? ;)
I was so happt whaen I got that thing, then I tried shooting it. [barf]
When I was working as a range safety officer at my old gun club, in one day, thanks to a sale by a local dealer, I saw four brand new Taurus PT92s come through the range . . . two worked OK, one was a jammamatic, and the last one broke on the first shot.
A 50% failure rate for brand new pistols didn't impress me.
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On the .22 mag there is some problem inherent to the action that makes the thing jam, like something is hanging up in there. Very strange. I took a look inside and couldn't figure it out. I had bought it as a backup for hunting but can't trust it. What I should do is sell the effer because it's just sitting there with less than 100 rounds through it and tieing up money I could use for a different gun. =|
That reminds me. Time to renew the hunting license. =)
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On the .22 mag there is some problem inherent to the action that makes the thing jam, like something is hanging up in there. Very strange. I took a look inside and couldn't figure it out. I had bought it as a backup for hunting but can't trust it. What I should do is sell the effer because it's just sitting there with less than 100 rounds through it and tieing up money I could use for a different gun. =|
That reminds me. Time to renew the hunting license. =)
My mom has the 8 shot snub nosed one and never had a problem.
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A 28 gauge Judge? I hate to ask, but what is it supposed to be for? Maybe I just don't get it.
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The Raging Judge is chambered for 454 Casull/45 Colt/410. There is NO way that it is chambered for 28ga.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=702&category=Revolver&breadcrumbseries=&search=raging%20judge
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My mom has the 8 shot snub nosed one and never had a problem.
.22 mag? And, how old? I have the 4" barrel and guessing now I've had it for 2 years.
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I'm not defending Taurus' spotty QA record, but I did have a thought as I was reading the above comments. Taurus always gets a lot of hate, but Keltec (whose QA record is just as bad, in my experience) generally gets (more of) a pass. Why is that the case?
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The Raging Judge is chambered for 454 Casull/45 Colt/410. There is NO way that it is chambered for 28ga.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=702&category=Revolver&breadcrumbseries=&search=raging%20judge
It's real, and it's in 28 gauge. This just came out at SHOT show. They wouldn't have it on their website until, at the earliest, the show is done.
I'm not defending Taurus' spotty QA record, but I did have a thought as I was reading the above comments. Taurus always gets a lot of hate, but Keltec (whose QA record is just as bad, in my experience) generally gets (more of) a pass. Why is that the case?
KelTec's warranty service includes fixing the gun, not just shipping it back to you like Taurus does.
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I have a P-32 that seems to run fine. it's actually my main carry these days. I did replace the "polymer" (It's not "plastic!") guide rod with steel though.
The lady on the phone gave me doo doo for calling the existing rod "plastic" when I ordered the steel rod. :laugh:
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.22 mag? And, how old? I have the 4" barrel and guessing now I've had it for 2 years.
yep .22 mag probably 4-5 years old
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Hmph, either she got a good one or I got a lemon. Well, I KNOW I got a lemon but the question becomes how many more lemons are out there?
I should take it in and get it looked at but in the meatime, and you're going to love this, CT secretly changed the wording on allowable calibers for hunting from ".22 Rimfire" which allows .22 mag to ".22 LR" just last season. Yea, we can use .22 LR to hunt on state land. Th-th-th-th-That's all folks! ;/
Anyhow, it's a DAMN good thing I held off on that .22 mag Henry I had my eye on. =|
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I was never impressed with the other .410/.45LC
Well, then, you won't be impressed by what S&W unveiled at SHOT: The Governor. It is a .45/.410 revolver.
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Hmph, either she got a good one or I got a lemon. Well, I KNOW I got a lemon but the question becomes how many more lemons are out there?
I should take it in and get it looked at but in the meatime, and you're going to love this, CT secretly changed the wording on allowable calibers for hunting from ".22 Rimfire" which allows .22 mag to ".22 LR" just last season. Yea, we can use .22 LR to hunt on state land. Th-th-th-th-That's all folks! ;/
Anyhow, it's a DAMN good thing I held off on that .22 mag Henry I had my eye on. =|
Must be the magnum name that scared them.
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And, I saw the S&W is looking to move in on the absurd hyperthyroid noisemakeing toy niche.
Hate Taurus. Anyone want to buy a POS .22 mag revolver that JAMS? ;)
I was so happt whaen I got that thing, then I tried shooting it. [barf]
Hey, I'll give you $50 for it.
Taurus always gets a lot of hate, but Keltec (whose QA record is just as bad, in my experience) generally gets (more of) a pass. Why is that the case?
'Cause their rep is for taking care of the problem promptly, and sending parts out liberally.
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KelTec's warranty service includes fixing the gun, not just shipping it back to you like Taurus does.
Ah, so Taurus is like Colt's in that regard. Well, then, you won't be impressed by what S&W unveiled at SHOT: The Governor. It is a .45/.410 revolver.
So now it's becoming standard to name guns after government employees? What next, a revolver made out of recycled aluminum and a frame made out of old soda bottles which fires only lead-free biodegradable bullets, labeled "The EPA Director?"
Or maybe a single-shot - imported from Kenya - called The President?
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What next, a revolver made out of recycled aluminum and a frame made out of old soda bottles which fires only lead-free biodegradable bullets, labeled "The EPA Director?"
HankB to the white courtesy phone, it's Taurus' R&D department on line 4.
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And IMO, Kel-Tec's QC issues are more with them taking chances on bleeding edge designs, rather than "cheapness".
P32 - Is the lightest slimmest locked-breech auto pistol on the market.
P3AT - Ditto but for .380ACP.
PF9 - Ditto but for 9mm.
P11- Haven't heard of any issues/complaints in a long time...
PMR30 - 30 shot .22mag plinker/pack gun.
And keep in mind, NONE of the super-tiny single-stack polymer framed autos has gotten out unscathed. Kahr PM9's have had issues. Rorbaugh had to go back to a metal frame and gave up on the carbon fiber/polymer (plus costs like $900 or whatever). When the went and blatantly copied Kel-Tec, Ruger's LCP had that infamous recall on their LCP .380. The Walther PPS "cheats" by giving it that tall fivehead slide to add extra mass to ensure feed/cycling reliability, and aside from it's thin profile, has weight/size figures more like a compact auto, than a true sub-compact auto.
Glock hasn't even taken a stab at a sub-compact yet, partly due to import issues, but that's gone away now that Smyrna GA has full production capability for slides etc. If they don't come out with a single stack micro-9 at SHOT going on this week... They're not making one because they're afraid to.
Then there's the other Kel-Tec innovations. Like SUB9/SUB2000, whole rifle folds in half. The RFB .308 bullpup, where apparently they've gotten the very first production bullpup with a good trigger ever to market.
So I think Kel-Tec's reliability reputation, whatever that may be when you take the "common knowledge" out of it, (kind of like the Glock KB-thing/rumors) and look at the real failure return numbers, if you could, it's because they're taking chances on the actual nature of the product.
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That thing looks like it'll be a boat load of fun to shoot. :)
P.S. my mother's PT-145 is a joy to shoot, and runs like a clock
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I certainly have no complaints about Keltec's customer service, but any time I look at a Keltec in the future I will be mentally adding the $50+ cost of shipping the firearm overnight from Utah to Florida to the purchase price when considering the purchase.
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That thing looks like it'll be a boat load of fun to shoot. :)
P.S. my mother's PT-145 is a joy to shoot, and runs like a clock
I had a Pt145 and it ran well, but was not a joy to shoot. TETO I guess, but I wasn't a big fan.
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Maybe they could come up with some duplex loads for 28ga.
Like it shoots a .38spl as a "second stage" or something. =D
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That things got to be a mother to shoot. I thought that they banned sawed off shotguns was because of the splatter potential. Due to barrel length, there isn't much difference.
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When the went and blatantly copied Kel-Tec
Yea, I almost fell over the first time I saw one of those rugers. Damn near an exact copy. :O
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Funny, dad loathes keltec because of the coustomer service. three times they sent it back w/o fixing it. Dad won't deal with them anymore.
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Ah, so Taurus is like Colt's in that regard. So now it's becoming standard to name guns after government employees?
Was it Colt or Smith & Wesson that started that?
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JESUS! Take the wheel! There are squirrels in the car! Gimme the 28! The glove box, its in the glove box!
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And keep in mind, NONE of the super-tiny single-stack polymer framed autos has gotten out unscathed.
American Rifleman reviewed the current crop of micro .380s a few months back (time flies, it all flows together, no more than a year ago). My recollection is that all of them, including the Sig, except the very most expensive, had functioning problems.
I suspect small autoloaders are harder to get right than larger ones. KelTec has a design (locked breech, half cock hammer on a tension spring) that seems to work well, and everybody's copying it.
I did hear a rumor (once, on Tom Gresham's Guntalk, talking to Bob Morrison of Taurus USA) of a .380 revolver from Taurus. Interesting, if true. It could be pretty darn small, and less problematic than tiny autos. At least until it's time to reload. This was last year sometime, and nothing's been seen of it, so it's probably Taurus vaporware.
I will be interested to see Ruger's micro 9.
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I bought a Taraus 8 shot 22 mag(blued) ten+ years ago, the day before Brady went into effect. Never problem one. Bought a five shot small frame stainless 38 spec.(85?) 5 or six years ago for my carry gun when I got my CCW. Again, never problem one. I don't care for the looks of the Judge but I can't fault QA from my experience..
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One thing I know about my P-32 is unless the round itself is no good it will go bang on the first round. After that it's anybody's guess. It hardly ever fails but it has. So I know I have to make that first shot count. ;)
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American Rifleman reviewed the current crop of micro .380s a few months back (time flies, it all flows together, no more than a year ago). My recollection is that all of them, including the Sig, except the very most expensive, had functioning problems.
I read that report - IIRC, you're right, in that every one - every one - except the Rohrbaugh (at around $1k) was a jammamatic. (At last, an article in a gun rag that saved me some money!)
I tried a Keltec P32 that a friend had . . . no functional failures in around 75 rounds, but accuracy! With those oddball pyramid sights, I wasn't getting groups, I was getting patterns on a silhouette target at 25 yards.
Anyway, I don't see a .410 or (honking big) 28-ga revolver as a good self defense arm for anything except snakes . . . other threads on this and other forums have debated the merits of a 12 ga shotgun for defense, and the general consensus is that even there, slugs or buckshot are needed. So birdshot or a small load of buck at reduced velocity from a little shotshell? Nope - there are better choices.
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I tried a Keltec P32 that a friend had . . . no functional failures in around 75 rounds, but accuracy! With those oddball pyramid sights, I wasn't getting groups, I was getting patterns on a silhouette target at 25 yards.
The caliber (.32 or .380) and the size make it a close-in weapon, for sure. If you're expecting you'll need to be accurate at 25+ yards with it, you're carrying the wrong type of weapon. The P-32/P-3AT and clones are ultra-compact better-than-nothing close-in self-defense handguns; expecting accuracy at any appreciable distance is beyond their intended purpose. Think modern, semi-automatic derringer in spirit/purpose.
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Marnoot hit the point I was gonna make. Those small pocket pistols are what I've heard referred to as "elevator guns". In other words, they're great if you're gonna get in a gunfight in an elevator. Much longer range than that, forget it.
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I read that report - IIRC, you're right, in that every one - every one - except the Rohrbaugh (at around $1k) was a jammamatic. (At last, an article in a gun rag that saved me some money!)
I think this (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2074&cid=19) is that article.
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Marnoot hit the point I was gonna make. Those small pocket pistols are what I've heard referred to as "elevator guns". In other words, they're great if you're gonna get in a gunfight in an elevator. Much longer range than that, forget it.
And honestly, in many self defense scenarios, if you need accuracy at 25 yards you might be in some legal hot water for drawing/shooting anyway.
I applaud the states that have no "duty to retreat" and "stand your ground" laws, and I want them here in WI. However, the actual pragmatism of fleeing/de-escalating when possible, with lethal force as backup if it doesn't work, is probably the best in terms of actual outcome for most people and most situations when averaged out.
Children in tow, limited mobility, or being cornered obviously changes that in a heartbeat though.
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I thought that they banned sawed off shotguns was because of the splatter potential. Due to barrel length, there isn't much difference.
The barrel length restrictions on shotguns and rifles are there to prevent people from cutting them down into pistol sized versions. The original NFA language included handguns in the Title II weapons. It wouldn't be much good to make pistols Title II if you could still take a shotgun or rifle (Title I) and chop it up into a pistol.
There's really nothing inherently dangerous about a short barrel on a shotgun. In fact I think once you get 4" beyond the forcing cone all energy has been expended. Longer barrels just give the user better pointing and swinging ability.
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So when is someone going to come out with an actual rimmed case .550 pistol round for this?
Or will that finally get the ATF off their keister and declare it a DD? I hope not, even if I think the product is dumb.
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Yup, 25 yds is a bit on the long side for a teeny li'l P-32. Ideally you've stuffed the barrel into your attacker's abdomen and pulled a contact shot or two.
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so when do we get 12 gauge revolvers?
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so when do we get 12 8 gauge revolvers?
:angel:
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There's really nothing inherently dangerous about a short barrel on a shotgun. In fact I think once you get 4" beyond the forcing cone all energy has been expended. Longer barrels just give the user better pointing and swinging ability.
I'm pretty sure the length is longer than that, longer the barrel to a certain point the shot will travel faster leaving the barrel.
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I'm pretty sure the length is longer than that, longer the barrel to a certain point the shot will travel faster leaving the barrel.
I remember seeing a chart somewhere...
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/evbutler/Velchart.jpg
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Shotguns lose very little velocity until they get cut down to 8" or less because shells traditionally use fast gunpowder, sometimes the same ones used in pistol bullets.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDgCdQ-01Dc
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I remember seeing a chart somewhere...
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/evbutler/Velchart.jpg
I kinda wish we had more of an explanation behind those numbers. FWIW I did a quick Google search and ran across somebody from Tromix (but not Tony) that did some velocity tests with 12 gauges. His numbers showed a similar trend in that there was an odd "dip" with 20" barrels. Not the same numbers, though, so I suspect this graph isn't from that same data.
I have no idea what to make of that. Seeing it once is weird, twice makes me think there's something to it.
Shotguns lose very little velocity until they get cut down to 8" or less because shells traditionally use fast gunpowder, sometimes the same ones used in pistol bullets.
Ayup. Shotgun powers are fast powders. One of the guys I shoot with uses Red Dot (made for 12 gauge target loads) in his 9mm and .45ACP reloading. Unique is a bit slower and it'll work in a bunch of different pistol calibers and any shotgun gauge if my memory serves me correctly.
I got the 4" beyond the forcing cone figure (which would be about 8" I suppose) from Tamara's blog somewhere along the line. I think. I can't quickly find a reference to it now, so maybe it was something she said on a board in her comments on another gun blog.
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so when do we get 12 gauge revolvers?
are you willing to build from a kit? [popcorn] (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/15/homemade-12-gauge-revolver-shotgun/)
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Yeah, I've noticed that drop in Velocity in other charts as well.
For my purposes, it's a sort of bonus thing if it is a truth.