NYPD: We could take down a plane if we wanted to

[AZRedhawk44]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NYPD_60_MINUTES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-25-19-59-04

THAT RIGHT THERE is some spooky sh!t.



Never mind the whole notion that the freaking US Military will not pull the trigger on a passenger plane without approval directly from the Oval Office.  For NYPD to have the means, the notion, and the will to do it is tantamount to insurrection/rebellion in my mind.

The amount of time they would need to ACT upon an aircraft inside their airspace where they have ANY arguable jurisdiction whatsoever is so laughably small that the act of shooting down a plane is for all intents and purposes, the same as premeditated murder.

It's one thing for the US Air Force or the New York State Air National Guard to have interdiction assets for such a mission.

Completely inappropriate for a metro police department to have premeditated means/will/plan to do the same.  That's a BAD plan that needs to be re-worked with more appropriate assets in mind.  And whomever came up with that plan needs to be shown the door, with a bootprint on his *expletive deleted*ss to mark him for his stupidity.

[Ron]

They must have bought one of those Barrett 50 cal anti passenger plane rifles. 

[RevDisk]

With what exactly? 

I certainly hope that no one was dumb enough to give the NYPD a Stinger or whatnot. 

[AZRedhawk44]

More than likely, it's a surveillance drone similar to a Predator, or even a squadron of them.  Either it's armed with anti-aircraft missiles, or they think they can kamikaze it into an aircraft.

Regardless, this is something that police departments should NOT be doing.  Probably right up there on the top of the list.

10.  Stake-out a suspect while parked at the front curb of his house
9.  Allow criminals to get leverage over you
8.  Flip out and shoot up your own neighborhood
7.  No-knock warrants
6.  Charge someone with crimes due to ego or pride rather than the facts
5.  Have sex in uniform on the hood of your patrol car
4.  Be a "Law Enforcement Officer" rather than a "Peace Officer"
3. Abandon their service pistols in public bathrooms
2. Demonstrate how "professional" they are with loaded Glocks
and number 1...
1.  Attempt to shoot down aircraft

ETA:  Municipal governments can purchase class 3 weaponry... but do missiles count as class 3 weaponry?  

If Raytheon actually sold this directly to NYPD, my estimation of them as a company will seriously drop a peg or three.

[BReilley]

I like how they mention sending NYPD agents "abroad" as part of their grand plan.
Wonder if that's parallel to sending agents into neighboring states trying to bait gun dealers and private citizens into "straw purchases"...

[Boomhauer]

More than likely, it's a surveillance drone similar to a Predator, or even a squadron of them.  Either it's armed with anti-aircraft missiles, or they think they can kamikaze it into an aircraft

Or just something as simple as a rifleman riding in the cargo bay of a helicopter...match speed with a smaller aircraft and shoot the cockpit area up.

Regardless, NYC is just an example of a large city that thinks it's an autonomous country...they need to be brought back in line, and this is just one reason.

[AZRedhawk44]

Or just something as simple as a rifleman riding in the cargo bay of a helicopter...match speed with a smaller aircraft and shoot the cockpit area up.

Inside of NYPD's airspace, you'll never get the chance to scramble a bird with a marksman in it, intercept, and match vectors within acceptable distance (500 yards?  In a vibrating helicopter at a moving target?  300?  100 yards? I've heard the prop-wash actually shoves the bullet down about a foot as it exits the barrel...) to shoot up a cockpit.  And you won't break the craft apart, which is the goal of airborne violence over a metro area.  Those 737's that hit the Trade Towers were incendiary missiles.  If they broke up over Manhattan into half a dozen pieces and rained burning jet fuel over town there would have been bad things that happened, but nothing on the scale of 3000 lives and trillions of dollars of economic impact.

The whole point of interdiction is to prevent the improvised missile attack, using a craft as an explosive delivery device.  For that, you have to blow it up or smash it into little bits.  Even if you headshot the pilot, the craft is still going to more or less go straight until it crashes into its target (within NYPD air space, you are looking at mere seconds between successful head shot and the bird hitting its target).

Nope.  We already know that NYPD and DHS have Predators over NYC.

I'm betting that rather than a SAM system, they have constant airborne assets attached to their Predators.

You're just not shooting down a passenger jet with a rifle.  Even a super-evil Barrett.

[kgbsquirrel]

ETA:  Municipal governments can purchase class 3 weaponry... but do missiles count as class 3 weaponry?  

Define as a Destructive Device, sub-definition Missile. $200 tax to the ATF if you want to buy one privately. So, the answer to your question, is yes.

[birdman]

1. NYPD doesn't have predators (to the best of my knowledge)
2. The FAA has rarely, and I mean rarely, given UAV's permission to fly in the US over anything other than test range airspace, or immediate transit from a base to over water., let along congested airspace over a city, as see and avoid is a major problem.
3. I have never seen a predator or reaper with air to air weapons installed or in use.

Where does this thinking come from?

[dogmush]

In the "60 Minutes" interview Kelly did not elaborate on what methods the NYPD's would use to take down a plane deemed a threat, saying simply that:

"NYPD Aviation has weapons that could be deployed with that capability."

Bullshit.  the kind of aircraft that is needed to catch, engage, and destroy an airliner is pretty well known.  It's not a 206 with guns attached.  Even if NYPD had managed to get and re-militarize an interceptor with missles, it would be obvious.  There would be large planes with missles on the ramp, pilots on ready-5 infrastucture, mechanics, training flights, shots on drones, fuel bills.  All the logistics that goes with air-to air capability.

The chief is either lying, or (more likely to me) played COD and is VASTLY overestimating what a surplus M-60 in a Bell 412 can do to an airliner.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

More than likely, it's a surveillance drone similar to a Predator, or even a squadron of them.

why?

and where is your source for nypd having predators?

this?  http://www.gaycitynews.com/articles/2011/08/12/gay_city_news/news/doc4e4414474e153994147714.txt   

[dogmush]

More than likely, it's a surveillance drone similar to a Predator, or even a squadron of them.

why?

and where is your source for nypd having predators?

this?  http://www.gaycitynews.com/articles/2011/08/12/gay_city_news/news/doc4e4414474e153994147714.txt   

You know, I almost clicked that link, but even post DADT I'm not going to "Gay City News" from my .mil computer. 

[Ben]

2. The FAA has rarely, and I mean rarely, given UAV's permission to fly in the US over anything other than test range airspace, or immediate transit from a base to over water., let along congested airspace over a city, as see and avoid is a major problem.

Even then, they generally make them fly with a chase plane between their base and whatever warning/restricted area they're working in. As strict as the FAA is even with DoD in commercial airspace, I can't see them saying, "Sure NYPD, have fun with your UAV."

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You know, I almost clicked that link, but even post DADT I'm not going to "Gay City News" from my .mil computer. 

lol
wuss

[Perd Hapley]

Maybe they have Chuck Norris?

[dogmush]

Photographic proof of NYPD's fixed wing UAV capability

[MechAg94]

Photographic proof of NYPD's fixed wing UAV capability

That isn't a plane, it is a cruise missile.....a very very slow cruise missile.     

[MechAg94]

Everyone knows that all you need is a Barret to bring down air craft.  You don't even need to hit it.  The shock wave of a near miss from a powerful 50 caliber bullet will rip the wings right off.

I bet the got hold of one of those quad mount anti-aircraft trucks. 

[Ben]

Photographic proof of NYPD's fixed wing UAV capability

I'd be interested to know the context of that pic (i.e., demo, or application). We've flown both the Silver Fox and Manta before, launching them off our boat, but doing so in a Whiskey. We've never received a COA for civilian airspace.

Two weeks ago we flew the Raven during a major Coast Guard oil spill exercise I was on the planning team for. We had to specifically move our origin point into a local Whiskey in order to use the UAV, even though the exercise was in open ocean and the UAVs were restricted to <1000'.

If NYPD is getting special consideration for COAs, I wonder how the FAA is justifying that when they are so strict with other Fed agencies?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

pics from 2003 too

[dogmush]

FWIW, from a quick googling:

NYPD operates Bell 412's and Augusta AW119's which have a max speed of 140kts and 144kts respectivly.  It's marginally possible that they could have 2.75" rocket pods for the 412's. (as in the mounts exist.  Not that there's any evidence NYPD has them).

The public info for a 737-400 has a do not exceed speed of 250 kts under 10,000AGL.  The aproach speed with flaps down is 180kts. So if the hypothetical terroists dropped to approach speed with flaps down, the helicopters still couldn't "pace" them.  NYPD needs to place their aircraft in ambush for the airliner, then as they fly by at ~50kts faster then the helicopter's MAX airspeed shoot an unguided rocket accuratlly enough to knock the airliner from the sky. And that's assuming that pissant rocket could even break up that large an aircraft.

I am no an air-to-air expert, but I don't think even a Stinger or Sidewinder will do it reliably. Weren't they designed for other fighter aircraft? IIRC once you get into bomber or airliner sized craft we used bigger missles (i.e. Phoenix or Sparrow) to assure a kill as opposed to simply a damaged craft still limping to the target area.  Anyone think NYPD is hiding a surplus F-14 somewhere? Or maybe they jumped on those SU-27's that Russia was selling?

I renew my call of bullshit.

NYPD would be better off buying some surplus SA-7's and stationing officers on rooftops 24/7.  And I'm sure that would go over well.

[dogmush]

I'd be interested to know the context of that pic (i.e., demo, or application). We've flown both the Silver Fox and Manta before, launching them off our boat, but doing so in a Whiskey. We've never received a COA for civilian airspace.

Two weeks ago we flew the Raven during a major Coast Guard oil spill exercise I was on the planning team for. We had to specifically move our origin point into a local Whiskey in order to use the UAV, even though the exercise was in open ocean and the UAVs were restricted to <1000'.

If NYPD is getting special consideration for COAs, I wonder how the FAA is justifying that when they are so strict with other Fed agencies?

Ben, I yanked that pic from the BAE systems website.  It was a demo/proof of concept thing that I knew about because one of the BAE guys I worked with in Arifjan in '08 had been there and told me about it. (although it was stupid easy to find, a quick googling will show it)  Last my friend knew NYPD didn't have the COA's to fly them, and might or might not buy them, but that info is out of date by probably 5 years.

[Ben]

Dogmush -Roger that. The last time we actually used any of their stuff was maybe in '07, back when I think they were still ACR (still have the SWAG hat).

[Boomhauer]

Inside of NYPD's airspace, you'll never get the chance to scramble a bird with a marksman in it, intercept, and match vectors within acceptable distance (500 yards?  In a vibrating helicopter at a moving target?  300?  100 yards? I've heard the prop-wash actually shoves the bullet down about a foot as it exits the barrel...) to shoot up a cockpit.  And you won't break the craft apart, which is the goal of airborne violence over a metro area.  Those 737's that hit the Trade Towers were incendiary missiles.  If they broke up over Manhattan into half a dozen pieces and rained burning jet fuel over town there would have been bad things that happened, but nothing on the scale of 3000 lives and trillions of dollars of economic impact.

The whole point of interdiction is to prevent the improvised missile attack, using a craft as an explosive delivery device.  For that, you have to blow it up or smash it into little bits.  Even if you headshot the pilot, the craft is still going to more or less go straight until it crashes into its target (within NYPD air space, you are looking at mere seconds between successful head shot and the bird hitting its target).

Nope.  We already know that NYPD and DHS have Predators over NYC.

I'm betting that rather than a SAM system, they have constant airborne assets attached to their Predators.

You're just not shooting down a passenger jet with a rifle.  Even a super-evil Barrett.

They didn't say what TYPE of aircraft they had the capability to shoot down. This could be simply people shooting their mouth off. when the only thing they could do in the air to air arena is to have the rudimentary ability of having a helicopter pace a small aircraft. No one has uncovered evidence of serious air to air equipment or capability that would extend their abilities to larger aircraft or actual, successful engagement other than "bringing a plane down"

Snipers and riflemen engage targets successfully all the time from helicopters. There was even a competition at one of the big three gun matches out west where they did a stage of sniping from a helicopter...even easier, though, if you have an light MG rather than mere rifle, since we are all aware that LE agencies can get 'em. 

The public info for a 737-400 has a do not exceed speed of 250 kts under 10,000AGL

That's not necessarily the max it will do under that altitude...there's an FAA speed limit below 10k.

[Balog]

Yeah, getting outraged about one BS off hand comment in a 60 Minutes interview is... not justified, inho.