NYPD: We could take down a plane if we wanted to

[Tallpine]

2. The FAA has rarely, and I mean rarely, given UAV's permission to fly in the US over anything other than test range airspace, or immediate transit from a base to over water., let along congested airspace over a city, as see and avoid is a major problem.

I'm working on the DO-178B cert for a UAV right now.

[longeyes]

The distinction between police departments and warlords seems to be fading.

[dogmush]

No, it isin't.

I hate overly militerized police as much as the next guy, and more then most.  And I have real problems with the way US law enforcement does many things.

But they're not even close to war lords, and to call them so makes you look like a fool.  Call me when a US LE agency makes a long term plan to control the food and water of a region and use it to starve people to death.  Then the line will be fading.

I just wish that a reportor in the near future will confront the NYPD with this idiocy.  Call BS to their face.

[longeyes]

Yes, I'm a fool who thinks that there are police departments, run at the top by politicians who have forgotten they are cops, that will do what the people in political power tell them to do.  I'm not ripping the rank-and-file, I'm ripping the culture of today's big police departments, which are all about power politics and preserving and enhancing big budgets.  9/11 has become the perfect excuse to demand the equivalent of a local war machine with a commensurate budget.  There is no doubt something deeper--and more ominous--too in the growing obsession with SWATting local police work.  I see all of this as an inevitable result and counterpoint of liberal policies that have created gangsta ghettos populated by uneducated poor minorities and illegal aliens coddled by liberal courts and aided and abetted by social welfare hacks.

You must have missed some of the police behavior during "Katrina."  Or some of the remarks of guys like Bill Bratton, my former police chief.

Police are human, part of the same American culture obsessed with Grand Theft Auto and Call Of Duty and innumerable action movies featuring martial arts and full-auto weapons.

[AZRedhawk44]

Well, they have come out and said that it's .50 rifles from helicopters.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NYPD-Take-Down-Plane-Ray-Kelly-Commissioner-60-Minutes-130576953.html

More security theater.

And grounds for Bloomberg to build his "zOMG the .50 Bee-em-gee can shoot down airplanes!eleventy1!" case for Congress to ban them.  After all, if the NYPD says so, and hopes to be able to in the event of a tur'rist threat, then it must be true.

NYC idgits that don't know better will feel "safer."

And those of us that know a .50 ain't gonna do anything to any plane of substance, aren't too afraid of the NYPD's capabilities, aside from the totalitarian gall of claiming it's okay for a local PD to plan to shoot at aircraft.

[dogmush]

Yes, I'm a fool who thinks that there are police departments, run at the top by politicians who have forgotten they are cops, that will do what the people in political power tell them to do.  I'm not ripping the rank-and-file, I'm ripping the culture of today's big police departments, which are all about power politics and preserving and enhancing big budgets.  9/11 has become the perfect excuse to demand the equivalent of a local war machine with a commensurate budget.  There is no doubt something deeper--and more ominous--too in the growing obsession with SWATting local police work.  I see all of this as an inevitable result and counterpoint of liberal policies that have created gangsta ghettos populated by uneducated poor minorities and illegal aliens coddled by liberal courts and aided and abetted by social welfare hacks.

You must have missed some of the police behavior during "Katrina."  Or some of the remarks of guys like Bill Bratton, my former police chief.

Police are human, part of the same American culture obsessed with Grand Theft Auto and Call Of Duty and innumerable action movies featuring martial arts and full-auto weapons.

I didn't miss squat.  As I said in my post I have real issues with the way US law enforcement handles much of what they do.  I just don't like listening to wild hyperbole.  Which your first post was.  Despite all the abuses (or maybe including them) US Civilian law enforcement bears no resemblance to a War Lord.  None At All.

[longeyes]

Big city police departments have been policitized as well as militarized; they have become arms of the liberal urban establishment, with all that implies.  That was my point.  Forgive my poetic hyperbole, but please address the crux of the issue as I defined it.

[Tallpine]

I just don't like listening to wild hyperbole.

My hyperbole is broke to ride, but sometimes it bucks once in a while.

[Jamisjockey]

Or just something as simple as a rifleman riding in the cargo bay of a helicopter...match speed with a smaller aircraft and shoot the cockpit area up.

Regardless, NYC is just an example of a large city that thinks it's an autonomous country...they need to be brought back in line, and this is just one reason.

Looks great in a James Bond flick.  Having actually vectored Helos and aircraft to intercept other aircraft in real life, I can tell you its not as easy as it seems in the movies.  Unless the NYPD was already in place and ahead of the game, no chance in *expletive deleted*ing hell they will prevent anything.

[zahc]

Is there actually anything constitutionally wrong with NYPD having air to air and/or surface-to-air capabilities? Don't they get to have their own milita? Home turf prerogative or something?

I don't like police departments for the same reason I don't like all government, but I'm surprised people are so worked up about it.

[dogmush]

Is there actually anything constitutionally wrong with NYPD having air to air and/or surface-to-air capabilities? Don't they get to have their own milita? Home turf prerogative or something?

I don't like police departments for the same reason I don't like all government, but I'm surprised people are so worked up about it.

I admit to not knowing if it's actually illegal, but in my view there should be a clear line between civilian and military.  Law enforcement, despite what they seem to want to believe, are civilians.  To me, if a NYC needs anything beyond "Arms" in the 2A/colonial definition of it, they need to be talking to the military.  In this case, I'm sure the NY Air guard could hook them up, and if the city really felt an air-to-air capability was worth the costs, a deal could be worked out with the Guard to run a CAP, or at least some interceptors on Ready-5.

LE is NOT the military.  And as a Soldier let me add the the Military is NOT law enforcement.  Forgetting that gets people killed.

[Boomhauer]

Looks great in a James Bond flick.  Having actually vectored Helos and aircraft to intercept other aircraft in real life, I can tell you its not as easy as it seems in the movies.  Unless the NYPD was already in place and ahead of the game, no chance in *expletive deleted*ing hell they will prevent anything.

Yes, I know. I am, after all, a pilot. Again, I did not say it was a realistic, actually workable plan to intercept an actual threat aircraft (which, if I was a terrorist, I'd also learn to jink).

But you will note it is exactly as I predicted.

Well, they have come out and said that it's .50 rifles from helicopters.

Now I wouldn't be surprised to see the NYPD shoot down some poor bastard who accidentally violates a TFR. With his whole family onboard. Just wait till that happens...

[Perd Hapley]

Is there actually anything constitutionally wrong with NYPD having air to air and/or surface-to-air capabilities? Don't they get to have their own milita? Home turf prerogative or something?

I was of the notion that a militia is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of the state, as the police are. And in any case, you seem to be applying the second amendment to an arm of government - which does not compute.

[AZRedhawk44]

I was of the notion that a militia is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of the state, as the police are. And in any case, you seem to be applying the second amendment to an arm of government - which does not compute.

You have two wrong notions:

#1 - Private militias are illegal just about everywhere in the US.  The Polity (city/county/State/FedGuv) must have the monopoly on force.
#2 - The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution applies equally to the States, the People, or to other forms of Free Association put in place by the People (such as a city).

Is there actually anything constitutionally wrong with NYPD having air to air and/or surface-to-air capabilities? Don't they get to have their own milita? Home turf prerogative or something?

I don't like police departments for the same reason I don't like all government, but I'm surprised people are so worked up about it.

I like your train of thought... I just don't like NYC having stingers.

But then again, General Gage didn't much care for Colonel Barrett's cannon buried in Concord.  Started a bit of a scuffle over the Concord Militia's claim to legitimate ownership of those field pieces.  Turned into quite the row by the end of the day.

I'll stew on it.

I still have problems with the notion of NYPD shooting down planes out of "self defense" of the city, and having any pretense that that is acceptable behavior or risk management.  Though the issue is entirely theoretical now that we have been told their defensive tactic is helos and .50 rifles.

[Perd Hapley]

You have two wrong notions:

#1 - Private militias are illegal just about everywhere in the US.  The Polity (city/county/State/FedGuv) must have the monopoly on force.

Hmmm. I didn't say that militia are legal, I was just saying that they are not the sort of govt.-funded, entirely-govt-run, entirely-govt-owned organization that a police force is.

#2 - The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution applies equally to the States, the People, or to other forms of Free Association put in place by the People (such as a city).

So you subscribe to a collective rights view?

[Jamisjockey]

Yes, I know. I am, after all, a pilot. Again, I did not say it was a realistic, actually workable plan to intercept an actual threat aircraft (which, if I was a terrorist, I'd also learn to jink).

But you will note it is exactly as I predicted.


Now I wouldn't be surprised to see the NYPD shoot down some poor bastard who accidentally violates a TFR. With his whole family onboard. Just wait till that happens...

Not an attack.  I think the NYPD are morons if their primary plan is intercepting an aircraft moving 120 from a helo moving 140 and using a .50 to down it. Fail.

[Boomhauer]

Not an attack.  I think the NYPD are morons if their primary plan is intercepting an aircraft moving 120 from a helo moving 140 and using a .50 to down it. Fail.

You can tell by the full statement of the idiot who claims that the NYPD could "take down a plane" that he doesn't know a damn thing about aviation, not to mention intercepts or shooting down another aircraft.

My theory is the higher ups asked the lower line guys "Hey, can we shoot down an airplane?" and the lower guys, snickering, said "SURE!" and mutter under their breath "You didn't say what kind of plane or if the plan had a chance in hell". They are laughing their asses off.

[AZRedhawk44]

Hmmm. I didn't say that militia are legal, I was just saying that they are not the sort of govt.-funded, entirely-govt-run, entirely-govt-owned organization that a police force is.

 So you subscribe to a collective rights view?

Both collective and individual.  By virtue of a reading of the 10th amendment.

States/counties/cities are free to create/organize/train such defensive forces as they see necessary to defend their jurisdictions (except New York City because I have an irrational dislike that I haven't straightened out yet, pertaining to them shooting down aircraft).

Note that I also said:

#2 - The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution applies equally to the States, the People, or to other forms of Free Association put in place by the People (such as a city).

States can have State Guards, State Troopers, etc.  Counties have Sheriffs, who institute posses or other volunteer adjunct law enforcement groups.  Cities have police departments who also sometimes have posses or auxiliary volunteer systems.

I believe that the 2A protects a police department's right to arm itself against foreign and domestic threats every bit as much as the 2A protects an individual's right to protect himself from a foreign or domestic threat.

[makattak]

I believe that the 2A protects a police department's right to arm itself against foreign and domestic threats every bit as much as the 2A protects an individual's right to protect himself from a foreign or domestic threat.

I think you are wrong. The 10th amendment may provide for that power, but the Second amendment is pretty clear:

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The Amendment is talking about private individuals, not states or agents of the state (and the fact that the 10th amendment mentions the States and the people seperately indicates the framers knew, and intended, them to have distinct powers and rights.)

[Jamisjockey]

You can tell by the full statement of the idiot who claims that the NYPD could "take down a plane" that he doesn't know a damn thing about aviation, not to mention intercepts or shooting down another aircraft.

My theory is the higher ups asked the lower line guys "Hey, can we shoot down an airplane?" and the lower guys, snickering, said "SURE!" and mutter under their breath "You didn't say what kind of plane or if the plan had a chance in hell". They are laughing their asses off.

You give the underlings too much credit.  I once had it out with UHP because I told them hell no they couldn't chase a stolen car across my finals while I was running a 3 mile nut to butt sequence.  Guy had the audacity to argue with me.  

[KD5NRH]

That's not necessarily the max it will do under that altitude...there's an FAA speed limit below 10k.

This, and vNE numbers generally refer to the speed which people who wish to land safely in a functioning aircraft should not exceed.  Manufacturers don't publish the VNEEIYASLWPTCTPA.  (VNE even if you're a suicidal lunatic who plans to crash the plane anyway.)

[wacki]

More than likely, it's a surveillance drone similar to a Predator, or even a squadron of them.  Either it's armed with anti-aircraft missiles, or they think they can kamikaze it into an aircraft.

Regardless, this is something that police departments should NOT be doing.  Probably right up there on the top of the list.

10.  Stake-out a suspect while parked at the front curb of his house
9.  Allow criminals to get leverage over you
8.  Flip out and shoot up your own neighborhood
7.  No-knock warrants
6.  Charge someone with crimes due to ego or pride rather than the facts
5.  Have sex in uniform on the hood of your patrol car
4.  Be a "Law Enforcement Officer" rather than a "Peace Officer"
3. Abandon their service pistols in public bathrooms
2. Demonstrate how "professional" they are with loaded Glocks
and number 1...
1.  Attempt to shoot down aircraft

ETA:  Municipal governments can purchase class 3 weaponry... but do missiles count as class 3 weaponry?  

If Raytheon actually sold this directly to NYPD, my estimation of them as a company will seriously drop a peg or three.

Did you make up that top ten list?  If so, it's pretty good.

[Tallpine]

5.  Have sex in uniform on the hood of your patrol car

At least that one is relatively harmless, assuming the sexee is willing.

[AZRedhawk44]

ETA:  Municipal governments can purchase class 3 weaponry... but do missiles count as class 3 weaponry?  

If Raytheon actually sold this directly to NYPD, my estimation of them as a company will seriously drop a peg or three.


Did you make up that top ten list?  If so, it's pretty good.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.  Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress.

Yep, all mine.

[brimic]

NYPD has a hard time taking down a criminal on foot with handguns and several magazines of ammo expended without collateral damage, I can't wait to see how they are going to bring down and airplane.