Author Topic: Assume McCain wins  (Read 15226 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 01:43:14 PM »
Whoa.  I'm not trying to generate age war here, brothers.  Young people shouldn't have to carry oldsters and oldsters shouldn't have their wealth involuntarily transferred.  If we had a soundly financed privatized SS system retireees would have a lot more money and it wouldn't be on the backs of the younger generation.  I am saying that people who have no current economic stake in the nation have no moral right to act as if they own part of other people's treasure.  If you disagree, you're on the way to being a good socialist, congratulations.  Fact is, both young AND old are getting screwed--by the usual suspects.

1. Everybody pays taxes. Even the 16-year-old flipping burgers at the McD pays taxes. He just doesn't pay income taxes.

2. The government does not exists to make you wealthier, or poorer. It exists to protect your God-given rights. If you have rights, you have a stake in the government.
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taurusowner

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 01:59:27 PM »
Social Security should never have been created in the first place.

longeyes

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 03:32:20 PM »
Everybody pays taxes.  Uh-huh.  And...and...?

And that justifies expropriation?

Uh, no, it doesn't.

This is not about AGE per se, it is a) about having an earned stake in this society and b) have some basic understanding of how society and particularly this society functions.

No one has the right to vote himself or herself a piece of my personal pie.

Anyway...

We seem to be getting off-track here.  Seeing beyond McCain requires clairvoyance none of us has, but just about all of us know that McCain, warts and all, is preferable to stepping into the tiger-pit come January.
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grey54956

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2008, 05:25:59 PM »
I don't hate religion.  I hate that religion in the US has become a political.  Politics is dirty.  The religious right has tied God to the political band wagon, and are dragging him through the mud. 

The United States is a land of freedom.  You can pick your religion, or none at all.  The gov't doesn't pick one for you, nor should it favor one over the other.  All are welcome, so long as they respect each other.

Take a look at the Middle Eastern states for what happens when one religion legislates its tenets into society.  Uh-oh, don't like the head tax for "people of the book" or having to wear an ID badge?  Or not being able to buy beer.  BEER!?! 

Franklin said that beer is proof that God wants man to be happy.  Thank goodness that we separated church and state enough that you can buy beer here.  Oh wait, I live in Indiana, where we can't buy beer on Sunday because some religiously minded political movement decided that keeping the Sabbath holy meant no beer, wine, or liquor sales on Sunday.  Well, I'm Catholic.  We're supposed to drink on Sunday... in church, and at home if we feel like it.  But someone else decided to legislate their faith.  Maybe I should move to Utah.  Dang, it's worse there.

Look, I love religion.  I love my religion.  I love the freedom to pick my own.  I will fight, and die if need be, to defend that right for me, you, and my fellow Americans.  And as long as we can all agree to keep our own various religions out of everyone else's business, then everything will be just fine.  On this earth, I am sworn to my countrymen and my Constitution.  There will be plenty of time to discuss who was right about religious affairs in the next world. 

Oh, conservatism is about efficient, effective gov't.  It isn't about solving problems, it is about creating the social, economic, and political enviroment where individuals and society can fix their own problems.  A self-healing, self-repairing, self-regulating system is better than one that needs to be manipulated constantly.  McCain isn't the best candidate ever, but he's a billion times better than Bush.  He's tough enough to do things that aren't popular, but will make us stronger.  He's smart enough to appoint judges who will look to the letter of the law, and not try to interpret new meaning into our Constitution.  He loves this Nation, and will do his duty, as he has in the past.     
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gunsmith

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2008, 10:35:21 PM »
Assuming McCain wins, I think we'll see better leadership in the war on terror, a little more time to buy some guns, win back a few gun rights.
Buuuuuuttt, we will see more wage slavery in the form of illegal alien influx, more patriot acts that the dems will agree to, a massive terrorist attack from the porus Mexican border.
Massive riots in the cities during the summer of 09 due to illegal influx and resentment from the black underclass and poor whites.....which will lead to a crackdown on the internet, the mccain/lieberman internet act.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Gowen

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2008, 11:55:10 AM »
Quote
I don't hate religion.  I hate that religion in the US has become a political.  Politics is dirty.  The religious right has tied God to the political band wagon, and are dragging him through the mud.

Not to go to far off topic, but before the Feds gave tax exempt status to churches and tied their hands, politics was in the church.  In the 46 years since the USSC took prayer out of schools and the church was quiet, what have we seen, abortion, assisted suicide, liberalization of drugs and porn.
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MechAg94

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2008, 12:56:08 PM »
Not to go to far off topic, but before the Feds gave tax exempt status to churches and tied their hands, politics was in the church.  In the 46 years since the USSC took prayer out of schools and the church was quiet, what have we seen, abortion, assisted suicide, liberalization of drugs and porn.
I don't know if I disagree so much as I really don't like your premise. 

Liberalization of drugs?  - most of them were legal up until the early 1900's way back in the good old days of old time religion.  I forget exactly when they were outlawed, but most were common out West.   

Liberalization of Porn - The oldest profession has been around and peep shows were not invented in 1969.  The porn industry is new, but so are VHS tapes and DVD's. 

Abortion doesn't really apply as it has been around for a long time, it just wasn't always a safe medical procedure.  Women of past centuries were no different then as they are today.  Playing around had greater risks and was looked down upon more, but it was still common.

Assisted suicide?  - Yeah, no one ever gave someone a gun and walked away before the 1960's or ever tried to ease someone's suffering.  I don't like that crazy guy with the suicide machine either, but it isn't really new.

I agree with the concern that some of these things are tolerated socially these days a great deal more than they should be, but they aren't new.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2008, 02:23:35 PM »
Ok, I'm not gonna TOUCH abortion on this one: it's an unwinable arguement, either way. And I'll leave drugs out of the discussion. However...

 Where is the problem with either pornography (and I'm going to assume that depicting legal adults involved in legal activities, regardless of how kinky) and assisted suicide? Seriously, what's the problem here?

grey54956

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2008, 04:35:44 PM »
The problem is that someone else doesn't like what folks are doing with their own time and bodies.  They feel that it's 'wrong'.  So, they figure that they can force other folks, by power of law, to stop doing things that are 'wrong'.

Now, abortion probably is wrong on so many levels, as a fetus' body belongs to the fetus, but someone else basically chooses to kill the fetus, or let it die, because it would be an inconvenience for them to go through preganancy, let alone birth a child.  Is it murder?  Dunno.  It may be manslaughter.  Hard to say for sure.  Being viable has nothing to do with defining whether something is alive.  If someone has terminal cancer, or requires life support to survive, then do they count as viable?  If not, would it be murder to go put two hot ones between their eyes?  I guess that takes us back to assisted suicide. 

Well, if I ever need to make that decision for myself, it shouldn't be a problem.  No assistance necessary.  I can do it myself, thank you.  Not that I would.  If it comes to that, I vow to simply live increasingly more unhealthy everyday, enjoying myself until my then-frail form just can't take the strain.

I think we can generally agree on the major stuff of what's wrong or right:  Stealing, murder, violent crime, breaking oaths, and wanton gov't waste are probably all real bad. 

Buying beer on Sunday, nudie mags, smoking exotic plants, gambling, and riding loud motorcycles are open to individual interpretation, so get the politics of the individual's own personal business.
"There are no carefully crafted arguments here, just a sausage-chain of emotional crotch-grabs." - Longeyes

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye and see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." -- Frank Herbert, Dune

taurusowner

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2008, 07:10:14 PM »
grey is right.  The abortion issue is NOT about deciding what a women can and can't do with her body.  It's about whether you believe the developing baby is part of her body in the first place.  I believe that it's a person.  Therefore I cannot choose to kill a person regardless of age, preborn or not.  And to think someone else has the right to murder for convenience is the height of depravity.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2008, 08:11:30 PM »
guys! Step away from the landmine marked "abortion". That way lies thread-lock!

gunsmith

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2008, 09:49:09 PM »
speaking of abortion, McCain seems to be against it, and Obama seems to be for post natal abortion.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Firethorn

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2008, 05:35:27 AM »
First, I agree, we need to drop the abortion thing.

Nor is the Lp party going to attract liberals in any numbers. Liberals are in favor of ever increasing government. They just are not going to vote to reduce the size of government.

Many liberals ARE in favor of increasing the government, but you have to remember that the democrat party is made up of people with diverse views just like the republican party.  Suggest legalizing MJ and you'd gain people from the party.  Couch things in terms of freedoms, efficiencies, and you'll get more 'liberal' people.

Well, if I ever need to make that decision for myself, it shouldn't be a problem.  No assistance necessary.  I can do it myself, thank you.  Not that I would.  If it comes to that, I vow to simply live increasingly more unhealthy everyday, enjoying myself until my then-frail form just can't take the strain.

It depends on what the problem is, and whether they end up hooking up various life support devices to you when you're to the point that you can't clearly express your will.

Quote
I think we can generally agree on the major stuff of what's wrong or right:  Stealing, murder, violent crime, breaking oaths, and wanton gov't waste are probably all real bad. 

I have to agree with this.  One person's pork program is another's healthy spending, but that's why we're supposed to have a group of people deciding the budget.  In addition, one person's murder is another's good shoot.

Quote
Buying beer on Sunday, nudie mags, smoking exotic plants, gambling, and riding loud motorcycles are open to individual interpretation, so get the politics of the individual's own personal business.

Agree, though loud motorcycles, especially late at night, is interfering with my ability to sleep/watch TV, etc...  Controlling noise, especially in cities is acceptable.  Just as long as you don't discriminate between the stereo, the loud pipes, or the home firing range.

Liberalization of drugs?  - most of them were legal up until the early 1900's way back in the good old days of old time religion.  I forget exactly when they were outlawed, but most were common out West. 

Agreed

Quote
Assisted suicide?  - Yeah, no one ever gave someone a gun and walked away before the 1960's or ever tried to ease someone's suffering.  I don't like that crazy guy with the suicide machine either, but it isn't really new.

Don't forget that before the rules, opium and morphine were easy to obtain, not that expensive or difficult to administer.  They'd give enough to ease a person's pain, even if it killed them faster.

Quote
I agree with the concern that some of these things are tolerated socially these days a great deal more than they should be, but they aren't new.

Well, I think gay marriage is new, but a side effect of the increase in tolerance for homosexuality in general.  As for drug use, I think that the old manifestation of the 'opium den' where you went in, used, and then stayed until you were reasonably sober wouldn't be a bad idea.

longeyes

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2008, 09:08:42 AM »
Just a passing shot...

If, as the Left keeps telling us, we are all "interconnected," are we only interconnected when the connection isn't "inconvenient?"

I'm just sayin'...
"Domari nolo."

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MechAg94

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2008, 09:21:34 AM »
Just a passing shot...

If, as the Left keeps telling us, we are all "interconnected," are we only interconnected when the connection isn't "inconvenient?"

I'm just sayin'...
There are a lot of convenient/inconvenient exceptions to many leftists views. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2008, 10:58:48 AM »
Drugs were originally banned in the US by the Progressives.

Wilson, FDR, and Johnson are the people who passed the keystone legislation on this issue.
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grampster

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2008, 11:00:52 AM »
For those of you who are afraid to discuss abortion, I say that when we can't discuss thorny, ethical or moral questions in a rational way, then what is the point of discussing anything?  The conversation then reduces itself to inanity.  We see enough of that on TV and in government.

They key is to keep one's wits about one when discussing difficult topics.  The only way we solve major disagreements, or at least cause them to be bearable at some point, is to think and talk them through as rational people.

Ignoring something difficult is childish.  Confronting things head one are what solves problems.

Those who are irrational? Ignore them.
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ilbob

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2008, 11:49:33 AM »
My guess is that even if McCain wins, the house and senate will remain democratic. That may well be a good thing. Gridlock often ends up with no new laws, and we just don't need much in the way of new laws.

McCain will certainly appoint "better" judges than BHO. The thing is, people only look at supreme court justices, when there are tons of lower court appointments that become important in specific cases, or down the road when some future president is looking for an experienced judge to appoint to a higher level court.

McCain will also be a lot more realistic about the war on terror than BHO, and he seems serious about getting a handle on federal spending.

He is not perfect, but there is no perfect to vote for. You have two choices. Mediocre and awful.
bob

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2008, 03:51:22 PM »
Actually, abortion is the only issue I'm not willing to debate. And that's because there's no way of saying "we do it this way, to avoid infringing on someone's liberty"...

taurusowner

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2008, 11:58:28 PM »
I'm not so much looking for what people think will happen in Congress or with the country.  We all know McCain's SC appointees will probably be better, but he'll also pass more Dem legislation.  What really I mean what do you think will happen to Conservatism itself?  What will happen inside th GOP in the future?

longeyes

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2008, 06:21:13 AM »
Conservatism, as we have known it, is an endangered species that, alas, has no Federal mandate requiring protection.  Political, social, cultural, and demographic mega-trends doom conservatism to minority status in the evolving American state.  If it survives as more than an historical curiosity or local political force, it will be through a re-assertion of States' rights or, in extremis, outright secession.

You cannot sell personal liberty or the idea of "the Republic" to a population that is more consumer than citizen.  What would change this?  At this point nothing short of a transformative--read: catastrophic--series of events.

That's my position, and I see no reason to change it.
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Gowen

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2008, 07:30:43 PM »
Forget I said anything.  If I had to explain, wouldn't understand.  Lets eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

If McCain picks the Supreme Court Justices he claims he will, we will be sitting pretty. 
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2008, 02:50:35 PM »
>Forget I said anything.  If I had to explain, wouldn't understand.  Lets eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.<

I'm sorry, but that's a cop-out. "I have these views, but I'm not going to explain them, or defend them". If you're going to make a statement, at least be willing to defend it!

"Fistful is responsible for everything wrong in the universe". Nice, easy statement to make. Maybe not so easy to prove, or stand behind (ok, it IS easy to stand behind, but still). That's been one of the hallmarks of this board: you make a statement, and you back it with facts (or get labeled a "fistful supporter"). Did that suddenly go away?

Gowen

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2008, 03:15:35 PM »
You are right it is a cop out, I have no desire to throw anymore pearls before swine.  I am just going to shake the dust off my sandals and walk away.  Yes, I can argue my points, but on this forum, no.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Assume McCain wins
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2008, 08:18:48 PM »
Ok, whatever. rolleyes