Author Topic: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents  (Read 28091 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2008, 03:50:32 PM »
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as to proof  dp pictures and jeffs contions work? or you want video?

 That proves Jeffs is a creep, not the whole cult.

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how do you reconcile a 15 year old mom with a 30 something dad in a state where age of consent is 17?

If a law has been violated by a 30 year old why do you take the children away from women in their 20's ?

Why not prosecute the 30 year old male? If I violate the law you would arrest my neighbor and take her kids?



"That proves Jeffs is a creep, not the whole cult."


and when they join to hide him? whats that make em? in va they call them accomplice or at best unidicted coconspirator


"If a law has been violated by a 30 year old why do you take the children away from women in their 20's ?"
so you can dna  test and prove that her 10 year old was concieved when she was 15

"
"Why not prosecute the 30 year old male? If I violate the law you would arrest my neighbor and take her kids?"
all for prosecuting you and theneighbor if she aids and abets.  but taking a momentary break to return to reality were any of the women and kids charged? or are you havinga "it coulda happened that way moment"?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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GigaBuist

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2008, 04:48:40 PM »
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as to proof  dp pictures and jeffs contions work?

Whoa.. I didn't hear anything about pictures of double penetration at the camp.

And who the heck is Jeffs Contions?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2008, 04:55:03 PM »
mea culpa i went back edited
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2008, 12:31:40 AM »
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were any of the women and kids charged

Were any kids taken away from their moms without DUE PROCESS!?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2008, 02:41:18 AM »
if you call due process a warrant being presented to a judge and a court order being written  then the answer would be no.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Brett Bellmore

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2008, 05:55:46 AM »
if you call due process a warrant being presented to a judge and a court order being written  then the answer would be no.

If you call  due process an application for a warrant which actually complies with the law being  presented to a judge, and him  writing a court order with a basis in the law, the answer  would be yes. That's why they won on appeal: Because the judge had issued a court order with no real legal basis.

The actually having a legal basis bit is part of due process, it's not "due process" if you go to court to get a judges' order when the law isn't on your side,  even if he gives it to you anyway.

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2008, 05:56:39 AM »
if you call due process a warrant being presented to a judge and a court order being written  then the answer would be no.

Wrong.  At least in the eyes of the appellate & sup ct of Texas.

--BB beat me to it, and with more eloquence.

Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2008, 04:38:08 PM »
your definition is different from mine. i see all that happened as part of the process. the 2 appeals just the last 2 steps   so far
on an interesting note... did you read the flds statement today? 
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9462175
Therefore, in the future, the church commits that it will not preside over the marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place. The church will counsel families that they neither request nor consent to any underage marriages. This policy will apply church-wide.
  i like the in the future part

heres how they are screwed. if they try to use the we was married exemption to the age of consent they set themselves up on the bigamy charges.  and the dna is due back this week.some lawyers gonna get rich here
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2008, 04:54:36 PM »
cassandra and sara's daddy, don't ever represent yourself in Court!
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2008, 04:59:29 PM »
never represented myself for more than simple speeding  if i ever get in real trouble i'll call for you.
you work out a plan to beat the dna yet? how you gonna escape age of consent charges?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2008, 05:19:17 PM »
IMO, your point should be that they followed due process in obtaining the original warrant, but the process was improper and the original judge should not have issued the warrant.  To me, that implies a different set of solutions than just saying there was no due process at all. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2008, 05:31:43 PM »
and the next step of the due process was the appeal.  the wheels turn slow.i know that some folks see this as them jumping about what proved to be a hoax call but the reallity is there has been a series of events over years that led up to this.not the least of which is jeffs convictions.wonder how long after tests come in before folks get arrested. or run. or off themselves
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2008, 06:22:35 PM »
more due process coming

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9462174

FLDS worry grand jury could come after them
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune

Article Last Updated: 06/03/2008 01:09:14 AM MDT


, Texas - Hours after signing an order releasing FLDS children from state custody, 51st District Judge Barbara Walther arrived at the Schleicher County Courthouse in Eldorado to swear in a grand jury that may be considering indictments related to the polygamous sect.
   By the end of the day, 18 indictments had been issued, although no details were immediately available. The number was more than the usual; typically, five to 15 indictments are returned, a court clerk said.
   Walther arrived at the Eldorado courthouse at 12:30 p.m., accompanied by two bailiffs and her clerk. She left an hour later.
   Allison Palmer, the deputy district attorney for Tom Green County, also was at the courthouse. Palmer has been leading the office's investigation into the sect and appearing at related hearings.
   Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran was unavailable because he was meeting with the D.A.'s office, a spokeswoman said.
   In a story published Saturday by the Los Angeles Times, Doran indicated that criminal charges were pending, while downplaying reports that FLDS members had requested voter registration forms and could influence county elections.
   "Once we begin impaneling some grand juries and the criminal case comes to light, we'll see the tide turn once again," he said.
   It could be days before the focus of any of Monday's
indictments are known; the county's policy is not to release information about indictments until they are served.
   News of the grand jury's meeting circulated among members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, creating concern about returning to their homes on the YFZ Ranch, several attorneys said.
   A raid of the ranch that began April 3 led to the removal of about 450 children, who were eventually placed in shelters throughout Texas. Walther signed an order on Monday morning that allowed them to be returned to their parents immediately while Child Protective Services continues an abuse investigation.
   Last week, Arizona and Texas authorities collected DNA samples from Warren S. Jeffs, the sect's leader. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial on charges related to marriages he conducted between underage girls and older men.
   The search warrant said the evidence was needed as part of a new investigation of four spiritual marriages between Jeffs and girls who range in age from 12 to 15.
   In Texas, the Attorney General's Office is awaiting results from 599 DNA samples collected six weeks ago, mostly from FLDS adults and children living at the YFZ Ranch, just outside Eldorado. The state had said it needed the results to match parents and children. A spokeswoman for the office did not return a call from The Salt Lake Tribune on Monday.
   
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2008, 09:53:19 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/03/AR2008060303061.html?nav=hcmoduletmv

Case Against Sect May Not Be Over
Legal Experts Say Individual Prosecutions Could Be Ahead
SAN ANGELO, Tex., June 3 -- The state of Texas's case against members of a polygamist sect is damaged but not dead, legal experts said -- even after a series of court defeats that ended with the return of hundreds of children who had been seized at the group's compound.

On Tuesday, as members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints continued to pick up their children from foster homes, some in Texas said that the court rulings proved the state had overreacted when it removed more than 400 children from their parents.

But child-protection authorities said their investigation will carry on. And legal experts said they might still
have a good chance at proving abuse at the Yearning for Zion Ranch, using DNA tests and seized records to show that underage girls were married to and impregnated by older men.

"Simply returning the kids to the ranch . . . doesn't say there can never be any individual prosecutions" said Adam Gershowitz, a professor who teaches Texas criminal procedure at the South Texas College of Law in Houston. "If the evidence indicates that men have been having sexual relations with underage girls, that's still a crime."

The state's case began on April 3, when state authorities raided the group's compound near Eldorado, Tex. The state alleged that the group's beliefs, which allowed girls to become wives and mothers just after puberty, created a physical threat to some children and a threat of psychological corrosion for all.


But last week, the state Supreme Court rejected that logic and pressed the state to provide evidence of abuse or threats against individual children.

Following their direction, on Monday a lower court judge in San Angelo ordered all the children released. By Tuesday afternoon, 229 had already left.

One lawyer, however, pressed for an order exempting her client, a girl from the sect, from the order releasing the children. The lawyer declined to give details, beyond saying the girl would be in too much danger of abuse if she went back to the compound.

Seventy-two of the boys who are returning home had been living at Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, a group home outside Amarillo, Tex. Dan Adams, the home's president and chief executive, said that the staff had spent weeks trying to explain to the boys why they were there.

"They just wanted us to know that they were good people," Adams said in a phone interview. Not wanting to offer an opinions, Adams said, his staff said, " 'You seem to be good boys.' You know, we didn't try to get into explanations about why the state did what they did."

Some outside the sect also have questioned the state's actions. John Kight -- chairman of the board for a Kerrville, Tex., mental health center that treated some of them -- said the seizures had been painful and unnecessary.

"It was just traumatic on the little kids," said Kight, of the Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Center. The state, he said, "decided that the people were guilty, and they have to prove themselves innocent."



On Tuesday, an official who oversees the Texas child-protection agency defended its actions in an opinion column in USA Today. Albert Hawkins, the executive commissioner of the state Health and Human Services Commission, said that investigators had found evidence of underage pregnancies -- and evidence that children had been coached to lie and confuse.

"They found records indicating a pattern of underage marriages and births. And they encountered a wall of deception unlike any they had experienced," Hawkins wrote. A spokeswoman declined to make him available for an interview Tuesday.

Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said their investigation is continuing -- as is a separate, criminal, inquiry by the Texas attorney general's office.

Neither agency has revealed much about the evidence it has accumulated against the sect. But, in the last couple of weeks, court documents have indicated that records found at the ranch may provide definite proof about who married whom, and whether the bride was underage.

Last week, for instance, state investigators cited records and wedding photos taken from the ranch as they sought a warrant to take DNA samples from the FLDS' jailed prophet, Warren Jeffs. They said the records showed Jeffs had married at least four underage girls, and the photos showed him kissing one and cradling another's baby.


Experts on child-abuse investigations said these records could provide evidence of improper sexual relationships, even if the underage girls cannot be coaxed into testifying against their husbands.

More information could come from DNA test results: The state has sought DNA samples from dozens of men and women, to establish how they are related to the sect's children. Expert said this could provide powerful evidence.

The state "got knocked down twice in the first round, then the bell rang and they went to their corner," said John Sampson, a University of Texas law professor. "There will be a second round, for sure."



It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2008, 07:21:13 AM »
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"Simply returning the kids to the ranch . . . doesn't say there can never be any individual prosecutions"

Which is of course what the state should have been doing in the first place  rolleyes


My personal opinion is that all churches are abusive and FLDS is one of the most extreme, exceeded in this instance only by the State of Texas  angry

Instead of going after the perpetrators, the state punished the "victims".  Separating the mothers and children was one of the most cruel and inhumane things I have ever heard of. (besides ending sentences with prepositions)
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Balog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2008, 11:37:34 AM »
I know you've had bad experiences with churches Tallpine; you've mentioned it before. But saying all churches are abusive is just silly. No different than saying all anarchists are losers who're just in it for the rock throwing at protests.
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gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2008, 02:53:54 PM »
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No different than saying all anarchists are losers who're just in it for the rock throwing at protests.

I was an anarchist for a long time, black block before it was called black block.
 I sincerely believed no gov't is better then the massive gov't we have today.
Also, in the eighties, punk rock girls wore mini skirts and fishnet stockings and said "yes" to certain questions posed by anarchist punk rock guys.

I never threw rocks, to easy to get busted angel police

Today I find the Conservative "less gov't" view and my Christianity to be a better fit. (note I am a deeply flawed Christian, I have not gone to Church or read the bible in a long time)
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Tallpine

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2008, 06:26:55 PM »
There are more efficient things to throw than rocks Wink
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin