Post by: Manedwolf on March 21, 2007, 12:12:21 PM
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Insurgents drag soldiers' corpses through Mogadishu
7:20AM Thursday March 22, 2007
By Sahal Abdulle
MOGADISHU - Somali insurgents dragged soldiers' bodies through the streets of Mogadishu before burning them today in heavy fighting that killed at least 16 people and injured scores more, witnesses said.
The corpses of five soldiers -- either from the Somali government army or their Ethiopian allies -- were desecrated during some of the worst clashes in the lawless capital since the interim government took over in December, witnesses said.
In one place, men dragged two semi-naked corpses by the feet while members of a crowd chanting "God is Great" kicked and pelted them with stones, a Reuters reporter said.
In another, three bodies were hauled round by rope, kicked and then also set alight, witnesses said.
The grisly scenes recalled the aftermath of the 1993 shooting-down of a Black Hawk helicopter by Somali militiamen during a failed US operation to hunt down warlords.
7:20AM Thursday March 22, 2007
By Sahal Abdulle
MOGADISHU - Somali insurgents dragged soldiers' bodies through the streets of Mogadishu before burning them today in heavy fighting that killed at least 16 people and injured scores more, witnesses said.
The corpses of five soldiers -- either from the Somali government army or their Ethiopian allies -- were desecrated during some of the worst clashes in the lawless capital since the interim government took over in December, witnesses said.
In one place, men dragged two semi-naked corpses by the feet while members of a crowd chanting "God is Great" kicked and pelted them with stones, a Reuters reporter said.
In another, three bodies were hauled round by rope, kicked and then also set alight, witnesses said.
The grisly scenes recalled the aftermath of the 1993 shooting-down of a Black Hawk helicopter by Somali militiamen during a failed US operation to hunt down warlords.
"God is Great" , huh? Would that be...Allahu Akbar, by any chance? Why, I wonder what sorts of people run around chanting that while committing horrendous acts of violence? Any guesses?
I once again repeat my assertion that Islamist extremists of this nature no longer even count as human beings. Hell, even animals aren't that brutal for no reason.
Post by: Boomhauer on March 21, 2007, 07:27:06 PM
How come when white racists drag a black down the street its a hate crime, but when its the other way around (1993, and now), we have people making excuses for terrorists?
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 21, 2007, 08:17:50 PM
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I once again repeat my assertion that Islamist extremists of this nature no longer even count as human beings. Hell, even animals aren't that brutal for no reason.
No, animals don't behave quite that way. Humans sometimes do. What's the point of saying that someone isn't human?
Post by: CAnnoneer on March 21, 2007, 09:26:28 PM
On another note, I must agree with fistful here. Technically, these guys are biologically human.
Post by: De Selby on March 21, 2007, 09:31:22 PM
This behavior is shocking. Clearly Islam is the key ingredient, because Ethiopia is a land of human rights and justice, and Ethiopian troops never slaughter innocents or even dream of committing a crime. In fact, the average Ethiopian is basically an illiterate Nelson Mandela.
This post has changed my beliefs right around. I mean, before, I could at least tell myself that Islam wasn't the key ingredient in violence, but now that we have the stark contrast between the essentially decent army of Ethiopia and the (partly-I guess only the ones fighting against us are Muslim?) evil Somalis, I know there's proof positive that only Islam could be responsible for this behavior.
Haha, geez...the lengths people go to, and the ridiculous conclusions they draw. I really do not get it...this is like arguing that the real problem in Liberia was Christianity; after all, the fact that it's a war-torn, bass ackwards African slum-state only has a secondary effect on people's behavior. It's the Jesus thing we should look at first!
Post by: Sindawe on March 22, 2007, 07:51:16 AM
Post by: El Tejon on March 22, 2007, 08:09:01 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 22, 2007, 08:11:39 AM
Post by: El Tejon on March 22, 2007, 08:14:16 AM
Post by: Bigjake on March 22, 2007, 04:18:42 PM
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Haha, geez...the lengths people go to, and the ridiculous conclusions they draw. I really do not get it...this is like arguing that the real problem in Liberia was Christianity; after all, the fact that it's a war-torn, bass ackwards African slum-state only has a secondary effect on people's behavior. It's the Jesus thing we should look at first!
Do we really have to suffer this fool? They banned blackburn for less....
Shootin'student, I'd love to see you explain to a MUSLIM mob how tolerant and understanding you are of their form of peaceful assembly.
Post by: De Selby on March 22, 2007, 04:54:15 PM
I'd no more want to face this mob than I'd want to face the angry Mob of Mexicans that burned some of their own Federal police alive a couple years back, or that giant mob of Americans that burned whole blocks of LA, or that racist mob that dragged a guy to death in Texas, or hordes of Ethiopian Christians angry about anything....
The key is that it is an angry mob you don't want to face. The religion of a mob is only relevant insofar as people want to defame that religion on the internet.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 22, 2007, 04:58:28 PM
Non-Somalis, even Somalis of different clans/tribes, would have been treated the same way prior to Islam's arrival. Us versus the Other. I'm sure we could find pagan Roman and Greek accounts of such savagery in their day from the same people when they too were pagan/animist if we looked.
Nationalism and non-local religion, whether Christianity or Islam, forms a thin veneer over what is still not yet a "modern" cultural base.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 22, 2007, 05:00:13 PM
The problem in Africa is the tribal/clan based societies with no concept of what we consider basic human rights or rules of "civilized" warfare, not primarily religion.
Non-Somalis, even Somalis of different clans/tribes, would have been treated the same way prior to Islam's arrival. Us versus the Other. I'm sure we could find pagan Roman and Greek accounts of such savagery in their day from the same people when they too were pagan/animist if we looked.
Nationalism and non-local religion, whether Christianity or Islam, forms a thin veneer over what is still not yet a "modern" cultural base.
Non-Somalis, even Somalis of different clans/tribes, would have been treated the same way prior to Islam's arrival. Us versus the Other. I'm sure we could find pagan Roman and Greek accounts of such savagery in their day from the same people when they too were pagan/animist if we looked.
Nationalism and non-local religion, whether Christianity or Islam, forms a thin veneer over what is still not yet a "modern" cultural base.
Sure about that? Bin Laden grew up in a very "western" sort of decadence, civilized society, air-conditioned near-palaces, jets and all for his family.
And his beliefs still led him to turn into an animal.
Post by: De Selby on March 22, 2007, 05:08:40 PM
Looks like I find myself on the same page as you on this one, as usual.
Manedwolf,
You think Yemen and Saudi Arabia are "western, decadent" societies? Having lots of money doesn't make a society westernized or in any other way developed. There are some wealthy African warlords too-that doesn't mean that it must be their Christianity or any other religion is the cause of their warlord-ism.
Post by: CAnnoneer on March 22, 2007, 05:16:05 PM
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Do we really have to suffer this fool? They banned blackburn for less....
I have been asking myself this for quite some time now.
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Shootin'student, I'd love to see you explain to a MUSLIM mob how tolerant and understanding you are of their form of peaceful assembly.
People like him can exist only in our highly successful society, since societal success eventually breeds excess, perversion, and self-indulgence, be it of the political, economic, or ideological kind. Put him in a survival situation and all his smoke and mirrors will disappear faster than the lion says "roargh" before having him for lunch. On the upside, his existence is a good sign - like the rat on a ship or a canary in the mines. Just don't expect him to live his convictions and move to Iran.
Post by: De Selby on March 22, 2007, 09:29:40 PM
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People like him can exist only in our highly successful society, since societal success eventually breeds excess, perversion, and self-indulgence, be it of the political, economic, or ideological kind.
Okay, on the one hand, I'm just like the Taliban....ie, people who arise out of a highly unsuccessful, extremely puritanical society where "indulgence" means a few palm dates once a month for dessert for the super wealthy.
And on the other hand, people like me can only exist in America and Western Europe?
I think you're confusing your insults here. I can't be a Talib and a Lazy Hippie at the same time-the two lifestyles just can't be lived together.
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Put him in a survival situation and all his smoke and mirrors will disappear faster than the lion says "roargh" before having him for lunch
What is a "survival situation"? Like the woods? Is there some scientific relationship between woodcraft and political views? Or are you talking about self-defense in front of angry mobs of Somalians? Something tells me no individual person is going to fare that well in such a situation, regardless of his politics.
Post by: roo_ster on March 23, 2007, 10:33:19 AM
Their elites, however, have a tendency to drink like fishes & party-hearty when over here in the states (from my personal observations). They are reputed to partake of western delights at home, after paying off the right gov't officials (according to witnesses and written sources).
OBL came from this upper crust. I can not say if he also indulged, but the 9-11 terrorists drank and went to skin bars before going all splodeydope. OBL was not the "Arab street."
----
A little more on violence & group behavior:
The G-Word and the C-Word
Post by: El Tejon on March 23, 2007, 11:46:31 AM
"Laws are for thee not for me" seems to be a universal condition of Mankind.
Post by: Bigjake on March 23, 2007, 12:09:07 PM
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I'd no more want to face this mob than I'd want to face the angry Mob of Mexicans that burned some of their own Federal police alive a couple years back, or that giant mob of Americans that burned whole blocks of LA, or that racist mob that dragged a guy to death in Texas, or hordes of Ethiopian Christians angry about anything....
The key is that it is an angry mob you don't want to face. The religion of a mob is only relevant insofar as people want to defame that religion on the internet.
The key is that it is an angry mob you don't want to face. The religion of a mob is only relevant insofar as people want to defame that religion on the internet.
Lets get to the ratkiller....
Religion is the ONLY relevant thing in your reply. mexicans and racists aren't blood thirsty crazed muslims. you can't cite 3 examples of mob violence unrelated to religion, then point at somali MUSLIMS, shouting GOD IS GREAT while desescrating bodies and tell me ISLAM is not the catalyst.
What is it with your kind and wanting to point at the current evil threatening the world and pretend it doesn't exist, and that we're no better?
The biggest irritation you pose, is that folks like ME have to risk life and limb so YOU can pontificate from the safety of your PC with your head lodged firmly up your ass on who the real enemy is.
Enjoy it. Should We loose, I'll be laughing at you from hell when the barbarians are knocking at your gate.
Post by: De Selby on March 23, 2007, 12:17:43 PM
North Korea calls itself a Democracy. Does that prove that everything North Korea does is for democracy, since they say they are democratic?
If Tim McVeigh had said "God as my witness, I will get those ATF ninjas!" would that make his attack Christian violence?
When Mexican mobs chant "burn in hell", did that mean they were just doing their Christian duty of dispatching servants of satan?
Oh that's right...only when Muslims use the word "God" is there a real religious connection.
People who want to blame all Muslims for mobs in Somalia are certainly not the sources of moral superiority in the world.
Edit:
Bigjake, just so we're clear...who is "the real Enemy"?
Post by: Bigjake on March 23, 2007, 12:30:20 PM
you're pry right, those were just Mulims In Name Only, Real ones don't exist, and if they did, they'd get along with everybody, hold hands and sing Kumbaya (or however they would pronounce it)
Post by: De Selby on March 23, 2007, 12:33:45 PM
How is that a tenet of communism? Or neo-liberalism, for that matter?
I don't see the connection. Maybe you could explain to me how that works.
I would say real Muslims are just like everybody else-some follow their religion, some don't, some commit crimes, some don't, and they are all personally responsible for what they do...just like you and me. But the point of threads like this is to make all Muslims guilty for any crime committed by another Muslim anywhere in the world; that is simply ridiculous.
Think of the reverse: Do you feel personally responsible for any crimes committed by people who defend America, since you are also an American? Would it be fair for me to say "Well, you're both the same nationality, therefore, you must be guilty of any crimes this other guy commits"?
Post by: Bigjake on March 23, 2007, 12:35:11 PM
whole teaching a pig to sing thing.
Post by: De Selby on March 23, 2007, 12:37:36 PM
I have new faith in America every time I realize that no one gets irrational and uses name calling in these sorts of talks. It convinces me that we're all essentially rational. Like your last couple of post for example...
"dolt"
"commie"
"troll"
"pig"
I had to just take a second to admire the professionalism of those in particular.
Post by: CAnnoneer on March 23, 2007, 01:15:15 PM
Thank you for your service. You are certainly appreciated. Please stick around and don't mind the troll. He'll get himself banned eventually.
Post by: Bigjake on March 23, 2007, 01:27:39 PM
I've been here as an unregistered lurker a hell of a lot longer than he has.
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whole teaching a pig to sing thing
Its a Twain-ism, Not a direct personal slight. shoulda known you wouldn't catch it.
And the other "insults" you pointed at, I meant every one of em'.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 23, 2007, 03:11:32 PM
The problem in Africa is the tribal/clan based societies with no concept of what we consider basic human rights or rules of "civilized" warfare, not primarily religion.
Non-Somalis, even Somalis of different clans/tribes, would have been treated the same way prior to Islam's arrival. Us versus the Other. I'm sure we could find pagan Roman and Greek accounts of such savagery in their day from the same people when they too were pagan/animist if we looked.
Nationalism and non-local religion, whether Christianity or Islam, forms a thin veneer over what is still not yet a "modern" cultural base.
Non-Somalis, even Somalis of different clans/tribes, would have been treated the same way prior to Islam's arrival. Us versus the Other. I'm sure we could find pagan Roman and Greek accounts of such savagery in their day from the same people when they too were pagan/animist if we looked.
Nationalism and non-local religion, whether Christianity or Islam, forms a thin veneer over what is still not yet a "modern" cultural base.
Sure about that? Bin Laden grew up in a very "western" sort of decadence, civilized society, air-conditioned near-palaces, jets and all for his family.
And his beliefs still led him to turn into an animal.
Right, but Bin Laden is a political animal, not an African tribal clansman. Notice I was trying to maintain precision in the argument, as that's the only way to figure stuff out.
What we were discussing is the tendency of mobs of tribal non-Westerners of any purported religious background to view abusing the dead and wounded of an enemy "other" as acceptable behavior.
The same mobs of pseudo-Christianized or Hindu or Buddhist tribesmen would behave the same way.
The differences in the world have less to do with fairly modern religions (past couple millenia for Christianity and Islam) than they do with base cultural issues that were cemented back when everyone were happy pagans.
The Classical West, through their Greco-Roman heritage, developed very unique ideas about the relationship of the individual to his community and how to approach exploring the unknown, very different than did almost anywhere else. The exact same religions overlayed on those differing cultural foundations developed in very different ways, which is why a Christian primitive is more like an Islamic primitive than either is like a modern Westerner of either religion.
Pointing fingers at religion is easy, but there a hell of a lot more going on than that. Ignoring that depth leads to mistakes in mindset and approach to dealing with problems as they occur.