Author Topic: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego  (Read 12144 times)

Fly320s

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2008, 12:20:19 PM »
Yep.  Or the pilot could have turned off the fuel accidently.  A.k.a. pilot error.
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Leatherneck

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2008, 02:23:33 PM »
No manual fuel shutoff except for the throttles in the F/A-18. From the reports of fire at the exhaust and returning from the ship, I'd ask about potential engine FOD. Possibly a bird strike as well. Or a turbine could have thrown a blade. I feel sorry for the pilot who now has the rest of his life to ask "Could I have done anything better?"

TC
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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2008, 03:56:47 PM »
The SanDiegoUnion is reporting he was coming back from the Lincoln (most likely Carrier Quals) single engine. His other engine quit as he was going into Miramar. It is reporting he stayed with the plane until about 25 ft AGL. The straight in single engine approach from the ocean explains why he was landing the way he was. The planes at Miramar normally approach from the other end because there is (or was) a nice large uninhabited buffer zone.

http://www.10news.com/news/18231819/detail.html

As of right now, we can all speculate as to what may have caused the engine to quit, but that is all it is, speculation.

I will wait for the results of the Accident Board and see what really happened.

As an aside, when I first met my wife, she was living in that neighborhood.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2008, 04:43:19 PM »
No manual fuel shutoff except for the throttles in the F/A-18. From the reports of fire at the exhaust and returning from the ship, I'd ask about potential engine FOD. Possibly a bird strike as well. Or a turbine could have thrown a blade. I feel sorry for the pilot who now has the rest of his life to ask "Could I have done anything better?"

TC

I've seen several jets auger in on 2 to 5 mile final after losing everything.  Luckily both ends of Yuma's runways were mostly orange groves.  But even if he had no control over the issue I'm sure that he'll wonder that question for the rest of his life, too.
JD

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2008, 10:17:27 PM »
O.K. .......

Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....

Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.

Is it just me or what?
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mfree

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2008, 10:23:52 PM »
From the article he landed not more than a couple hundred feet away, and looking at the photos it seems he was stuck without a whole lot of dirt to aim for. If he was fighting a stalled airplane, this was probably about the best your gonna get, and riding it into the ground is pointless.

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2008, 10:29:15 PM »
O.K. .......

Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....

Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.

Is it just me or what?

Sometimes there isn't much dirt, especially when you are low on final. There aren't a whole lot of options in that point.

A jet fighter designed for high speeds isn't forgiving at the low airspeeds you need for approach and landing. You can't trade altitude for airspeed.

And FWIW, we general aviation pilots always go down with the ship...but if I had an ejection seat, damn straight I'd use it...



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BobR

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2008, 10:40:15 PM »
Quote
Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.

Is it just me or what?

It is just you. I don't remember at any time being told is was our duty to take our plane into the dirt, rather than hit houses. It was a given that if we could, we would stay with the plane as long as possible and attempt to minimize damage on the ground, it wasn't a duty, but rather the way an honorable person would conduct himself. There is also the possibility he was trying for the canyon behind the houses but ran out of two things required to stay airborne....sky and airspeed.

In retrospect, there will be a lot of people giving their opinions on what he should have done, but like all Monday morning quarterbacks, we weren't there and and didn't have to make the decision in the blink of an eye.

He survived, and several on the ground didn't, he will always remember that. I have seen people give up their wings for less.

bob

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2008, 10:49:26 PM »
O.K. .......

Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....

Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.

Is it just me or what?


If they have any control over the aircraft, they will fly it for what its worth. 
Often mere seconds are involved for a pilot to make a decision. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Gewehr98

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2008, 02:23:07 AM »
It is just you, and the fact that you went there ain't cool at all. 

Does it chap your hide that we had ejection seats vs. doing the "honorable" thing?  ;/ 
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erictank

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2008, 07:41:37 AM »
O.K. .......

Nobody else is going to "go there", so I'll take the plunge....

Having served with several naval aviators, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots DUTY to fly the plane into the dirt, rather than punch over a densely populated area and leave the plane to crash where it will, and burn grannies, mommies and little babies alive.

Is it just me or what?

Just you.

If he lost his remaining engine at 25 ft AGL on final (low airspeed), he's not going to be able to do *ANYTHING* other than add one more to any body count that occurs.  If he gets out, and doesn't land in the wreckage and die anyways, that's one less person who died, someone who might actually be able to answer questions about what happened. 

Of course, he also gets to feel guilty for the rest of his life, because he DIDN'T ride it into the ground and/or manage to keep it from landing on someone else.  Hope he is able to handle it, and gets counselling if needed.

Seriously, what POSSIBLE benefit is there in staying with the plane if there is *ZERO* possibility of keeping it from hitting an inhabited area, as under the conditions which existed for this event?

Jamisjockey

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2008, 08:22:05 AM »
Not to nitpick...but....
"25 ft AGL" puts him over the fence or the underrun, not over the suburbs. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

erictank

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2008, 09:14:59 AM »
Not to nitpick...but....
"25 ft AGL" puts him over the fence or the underrun, not over the suburbs. 

Should have done my own research instead of blithely quoting something I saw upthread, give me a second...

Okay, looks like 2 miles out, so he ought to have been under 1K, right?  POSSIBLY even lower, if they didn't want a high descent rate during final and landing due to being down to a single engine.  Reports from observers state that the plane was "flying extremely low" - sounds like WELL under 1K to me.  Just checked online maps, and the crash location is just about right on 2 miles from the end of the runway; landing speed on the close order of 150mph gives us 48 seconds or so to the end of the runway.  A thousand feet up at that point would require a 21fps descent rate - probably doable for a carrier-based aircraft (IIRC, they can handle up to 30fps, but don't remember where I read that and won't swear it's accurate), but limiting to 10fps would put him at under 500ft up - with gear and flaps down and two-engine failure (how long would hydraulics last, for control of the aircraft?), on an aircraft with a TINY glide ratio.

Yeah, unless we get further information indicating otherwise, I'm sticking with the belief that there was nothing the pilot could have done.

ETA: He EJECTED at 25AGL, not lost power there.  That's where I got that, and was mixing the two up.  And I'd forgotten that the F-18D is, apparently, fly-by-wire, so he needed electrical AND hydraulic power (for computers and wing/tail control surface deflections).   Still don't know how long that would last with engines out.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:27:18 AM by erictank »

Leatherneck

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2008, 09:32:32 AM »
From CNN:
Quote
SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- A Korean immigrant who lost his wife, two children and mother-in-law when a Marine Corps jet slammed into the family's house said Tuesday he did not blame the pilot, who ejected and survived.
Dong Yun Yoon addresses reporters Tuesday, a day after a jet crashed into his home and killed four of his relatives.

Dong Yun Yoon addresses reporters Tuesday, a day after a jet crashed into his home and killed four of his relatives.

"Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident," a distraught Dong Yun Yoon told reporters gathered near the site of Monday's crash of an F/A-18D jet in San Diego's University City community.

"He is one of our treasures for the country," Yoon said in accented English punctuated by long pauses while he tried to maintain his composure.

"I don't blame him. I don't have any hard feelings. I know he did everything he could," said Yoon, flanked by members of San Diego's Korean community, relatives and members from the family's church.

At least the victims' NOK are compassionate...

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2008, 09:39:19 AM »
classy statement

funny the appreciation of the military some immigrants have. and how lil some of the homegrown folks show
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2008, 10:14:39 AM »
Listening to CNN in the car earlier, witnesses are reporting that the jet made no noise as it fell.  CNN is also reporting that it lost one engine after takeoff from the Carrier, and the other over the suburbs.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2008, 01:25:47 PM »
classy statement

funny the appreciation of the military some immigrants have. and how lil some of the homegrown folks show

Some immigrants come from places where things are a lot worse, and thus when they come here they are very appreciative, unlike some who lived here all their lives and take everything for granted and have no idea what it's really like living elsewhere. 
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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2008, 01:45:20 PM »
Sad for all involved, I don't see how adding the pilot to the deceased list would have made it better. My idea for someone to blame is the city. If the place is anything like Virginia Beach the developers came along and put in lots of high density developments and schools long after the airfield was established. Risk will never go away, hopefully the pilot and the families of those on the ground can learn something and move on.
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Thor

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2008, 03:05:16 PM »
I remember that circa 1980, an F-14 crashed on approach to NAS Miramar. (It was a Naval Air Station, then). The pilot was praised throughout the community because he managed to crash it in an empty park vs the surrounding houses. I think the pilot died in that crash.

and I'll second FrenchG's statement. I lived in the flight path of NAS Oceana during my last two tours. It sucked, but we all accepted the risk of a crash.
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Uncle Bubba

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2008, 03:06:10 PM »
Just you.

If he lost his remaining engine at 25 ft AGL on final (low airspeed), he's not going to be able to do *ANYTHING* other than add one more to any body count that occurs.  If he gets out, and doesn't land in the wreckage and die anyways, that's one less person who died, someone who might actually be able to answer questions about what happened

Of course, he also gets to feel guilty for the rest of his life, because he DIDN'T ride it into the ground and/or manage to keep it from landing on someone else.  Hope he is able to handle it, and gets counselling if needed.

Seriously, what POSSIBLE benefit is there in staying with the plane if there is *ZERO* possibility of keeping it from hitting an inhabited area, as under the conditions which existed for this event?

'S what I was thinking. By all accounts he flew it as far as he could and took the out at the last possible moment.

There was/is a photo on FoxNews (IIRC) of the pilot aviator sitting on the ground at the crash site, talking on a cell phone. I immediately wondered how long it'll take for the nitpickers and those who practice being offended as a profession to start harping about his not caring about the people who died because he didn't immediately begin a public display of overwhelming grief and guilt. The nitpickers et al don't know, and wouldn't care, that his isn't the type for it. The first duty is to analyze and report, if able. Afterward, they do their grieving in private, with family, squadron mates, and fellow flyers.
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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2008, 06:11:43 AM »
ETA: He EJECTED at 25AGL, not lost power there.

At 25 ft above the ground, without power in a plane that glides about as well as the average cow, he would be clipping power lines and trees within milliseconds.  I think it's safe to say he rode it out until there was really nothing more he could do.


mfree

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2008, 09:41:33 PM »
With a punchout at 25' AGL it could be he was aiming doen the street. That house was on a corner, after all. I could easily see him punching out an instant before the plan went awry by a wing clipping a tree and turning the plane into the house, etc.

No, can't fault the pilot here.

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Re: US F-18 jet crashes in San Diego
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2008, 10:30:24 PM »
I found this on a blog.  I don't know if there's anything online, but if you have the time and inclination, you might send a note:

Quote
Reader David talked to Yoon’s pastor, who said you can send card and help directly to his church.

Here’s the address:

Dong Yun Yoon
c/o Rev. Kevin Lee
Korean United Methodist Church
3520 Mount Acadia Blvd
San Diego, CA 92111

His faith and patriotism have touched so many of us so deeply. Take a moment to help lift him up.

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