Author Topic: I guess .40 S&W can work against Tigers (Read 22548 times)

gunsmith · « **on:** December 26, 2007, 12:33:35 PM »

I've heard two different stories, my friends in SF say it was park workers with rifles
and press reports say it was cops with pistols that stopped the Tiger.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4051469

The identity of a boy who was killed Christmas Day when an escapted tiger mauled him at a California zoo was revealed late this afternoon. Seventeen-year-old Peter Shaplen, of San Jose, Calif., was the only fatality when 350-pound Siberian tiger named Tatiana managed to escape its cage. Two other men were injured and in an press conference earlier today, police said they were treating the San Francisco Zoo , as crime scene until they can gather more information. California authorities said they.

Rocketman56 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:03:59 PM »

Heard a report on the radio while driving this afternoon that claimed the 3 men were at the zoo together and had been taunting the tigers and other big cats...

I'm considering that hearsay until something more definite comes out, but the possibility does give a reason for the tiger
to leap a 15' moat and 20' wall combination.. (I think I got those measurements right.. they may be reversed..)..

Moral: Don't make the tigers mad!!! shocked

Steve

Edited: Spelling error, GAK! THANKS, jamisjockey

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:57:26 PM »

Moral. No "e".
police

meinbruder · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2007, 04:32:32 PM »

I read the police with pistols story on Yahoo, a follow-up story indicated the tiger, Tatiana, was transferred to SF from a zoo in Texas (I think) in hopes she would mate with one of the males. Tigers are on the endangered list and cubs would be a good thing. The cat seems to have a history of fractious behavior, as reported in the follow-up on Yahoo. Given the security of the enclosure was considered adequate, this is a tragic incident for both man and beast.

As far as .40S&W being useful against Tigers, I would suppose the PD on scene emptied several pistols to stop the cat; not what I would call an optimum kill for humane reasons. The boys teasing the animal is an interesting theory, it would explain a sudden motivation for escape. Isnt the Tiger known for seeking revenge?

Da Bianhua
}:)>

Firethorn · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2007, 05:42:05 PM »

Quote from: meinbruder on December 26, 2007, 03:32:32 PM

As far as .40S&W being useful against Tigers, I would suppose the PD on scene emptied several pistols to stop the cat; not what I would call an optimum kill for humane reasons. The boys teasing the animal is an interesting theory, it would explain a sudden motivation for escape. Isnt the Tiger known for seeking revenge?

While a .22 can be used to kill an elephant, it's not an optimal solution.

While a .40 isn't an optimal solution for killing a tiger - I'd argue that it's not even optimal for killing humans. It's optimized more towards portability than lethality, like most pistol calibers.

Still, in this situation you use what you have. If all they had were .40's, well, they'll work given sufficient numbers or a lucky hit - which 'sufficient numbers' will help through the laws of probability. Or at least bleeding out.

atomd · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26, 2007, 06:21:34 PM »

I read one story where it said that all officers on the scene fired upon the tiger. I think it was 4 or 5 officers. They didn't say the number of shots fired but with all of those high caps emptying, I'm sure that thing got hit and hit and hit some more. Enough of any service caliber on a tiger will eventually kill it. If it were just me VS a tiger I would want a hell of a lot more than a .40S&W. Bring me a rifle....the biggest one ya got!

Bigjake · « **Reply #6 on:** December 26, 2007, 06:47:21 PM »

eeek. give me something with a bit of stopping power over the .40 smith any day. ideally, a marlin 1895/ 45-70.

meinbruder · « **Reply #7 on:** December 26, 2007, 07:42:22 PM »

Hmmmm. Big rifle, check, .45-70, check; .40S&W, uhhhh, can someone pass me a .45acp please. From the reports on the MSM, Yahoo, and Drudge, multiple officers fired multiple rounds from <glocks?> pistols in .40S&W; it seems to me that so many rounds must have been fired that the last slugs should have started pushing in the first ones, if you know what I mean. If I had to put down a belligerent animal with nothing more than a pistol or small caliber rifle, I would need to wring out my shorts after the fact.

Da Bianhua
}:)>

gunsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** December 26, 2007, 07:50:19 PM »

I lived in SF for a long time and know some cops there, I'll get the skinny in a few days.
My educated guess is the three victims only teased the cat by running in abject terror and the cops
emptied multiple 15 round mags into the kitty, I'll bet they fired 100 or more rounds and hit the cat 5 times &
The cat died from a lucky shot. SF cops all carry Beretta 96 40 S&W (this way they all can use each others mags)
In SF the bigwigs always pass the buck.

Tuco · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2007, 08:18:58 PM »

Col. Jim Corbett "Man-eaters of Koumaon" used the diminutive .275 H&H (close to the 7x57, but rimmed IIRC) to kill dozens of man eaters during his work in Service to the Queen.

It's all about placement, sahib.

gunsmith · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2007, 11:30:07 PM »

If I knew I was going to battle against a big cat like that?, I would want some kind of carbine in .50bmg grin

gunsmith · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:38:12 AM »

unofficial scuttlebut from inside source at SFPD!!!
Quote:

Quote

Unofficial locker-room skuttlebutt.....is 22 shots...unknown how many hits.... 4 officers shooting... Apparently the big cat..didnt go down at first...and was charging the officers.

Also....it is being said that the victims.....3 guys...in their 20s...where taunting and teasing the tiger... some rumors have them inside the tiger/lion compound.... The cat apparently scaled a 20 foot wall...and ran directly after those three guys...leaving many other citizens unharmed as he passed them chasing down these three guys.

This is just locker-room information....unofficial.

On last nights news outta SF it was implied the cat followed a blood trail,(from the cage to cafe full of people) ignoring people on its way to the intended targets

MechAg94 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2007, 09:09:32 AM »

The problem with 50 BMG is that you would likely be too slow to hit it if it sidestepped he first shot. A guide gun is probably as big as I would go. Multiple gunmen would be preferred.

grampster · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2007, 10:20:22 AM »

Saw some older guy on late night tv who has dealt with tigers for many years.
He said something to the effect that what the tiger did, based only on what info was then available, was out of character for tigers and that that particular cat must have been consumed by hate to act in the manner that it appeared to do, ie killing one and stalking the other two.

Scout26 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2007, 03:25:34 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071227/ap_on_re_us/tiger_escapes

Well now they're saying that the wall was too low.

I also read (or heard), can't find it now, that they tiger was shot/hit 12 times. They're also saying the humans may have caused it to attack. What's the old saying, "Mess with the bull and you might get the horns." So it'll be "Tick off a tiger and you might get the teeth."

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2007, 05:33:43 PM »

Just re-read "Use Enough Gun".

Cats, even the big ones, unlike bears, are apparently thin-skinned and light-boned.

Less worry about punching through heavy skin, fat, muscle and bone apparently. The .40 would have decent momentum for that situation I guess.

LadySmith · « **Reply #16 on:** December 27, 2007, 11:58:53 PM »

The Bay Area news about this sucks.
They're throwing out opposing information and very little facts.
They said the tiger couldn't leap the wall to it's enclosure, but today they're saying the wall is too low and it could.
They say the guy who was killed dangled his leg into the enclosure, and the tiger used it as a means to get out. They say blood and a shoe was found inside the enclosure. The police say there weren't.
They're sticking to the "tiger was taunted" story, and that Tatiana (the tiger) already had a taste for human blood from mauling a zoo keeper last year.
Now they're digging up dirt on the surviving mauling victims.
And, this being the Bay Area, the majority feels bad for the loss of the tiger.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/28/MNSKU5OFE.DTL

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2007, 07:57:22 AM »

On FARK.com (a sometimes NSFW ad and link website) folks post links to news stories with clever, usually snarky, headlines and then the site members comment on the stories (and the posters and so much more, it can get brutal).

Anyway, there is a steady contingent of folks outraged that (first) they didn't use tranq guns instead of killing the activly attacking tiger and (later) that zoo staff had gone to get the guns but the police took charge and took away the tranqs. The timing is sketchy on whether the staff got to the non-lethals prior to the police finding and killing the cat, or if they got them on scene too late.
Remember when the police were notified it was thought all 5 cats might be loose, lots of confusion.

The commenters on the sight are often naive and in the case of many of the "poor cat/bad killer cops"-types prone to 20/20 hindsight.

Lots of eco-hippy "but, but, tigers are endangered" (yes Virginia, in the WILD they are) or, "better the tiger was saved and the taynting humans die", though you can see the smoke from some of the non-gaia worshippers as they attempt to reconcile the value of pretty, endangered, kitty life with human life. rolleyes

There are of course a few folks who point out tranq darts do not equal phasers set on stun in terms of instant effect.

gunsmith · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2007, 12:35:47 AM »

my ex wrote a poem about it.

Tiger, Tiger, burning bright
In the zoo on Christmas night
What intrepid beast or man
Dare taunt thy bold temerity?

Cromlech · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2007, 03:43:10 AM »

Well, I am not one to say they should have let it live, even though it is shame that they had to kill it. You must do whatever it takes to keep the people alive and safe from it. Still, If the people attacked did indeed taunt it, then I can't feel too sorry for them. Imagine the carnage that a 700lb male Amur (Siberian) could have done, after seeing what a 350lb female did.
Let's take a moment to consider the hang time of a tiger:

Iain · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2007, 04:52:43 AM »

The full story of that video is worth reading, although the extended version of the video doesn't really show anything much, the text below the video in this link is amazing, if true.

http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/html/news/2004/040609_joymala.htm

Rocketman56 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 29, 2007, 01:03:47 PM »

That's an amazing story..

Quote

http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/html/news/2004/040609_joymala.htm

If not for the instincts and reflexes of the elephant there would have been a lot of mauled/dead people that day...

Elephants and tigers are mortal enemies, so what's described is not out of question..

Wow..
Steve

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2007, 11:35:06 AM »

Somebody get that elephant a steak.

Or some hay or a pumpkin or something... grin

Manedwolf · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2007, 11:51:28 AM »

Question, though.

We all know that a higher caliber, one of the "safari" calibers or 45-70 would be best to have for a tiger. Even .308 if that's all they have.

But how many average SFPD cops know WHERE to shoot at a large predator to bring it down? Or could likely aim well enough to hit it if they did?

And do police there not carry any slugs for the shotgun anymore?

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2007, 01:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Manedwolf on December 30, 2007, 10:51:28 AM

Question, though.

We all know that a higher caliber, one of the "safari" calibers or 45-70 would be best to have for a tiger. Even .308 if that's all they have.

But how many average SFPD cops know WHERE to shoot at a large predator to bring it down? Or could likely aim well enough to hit it if they did?

And do police there not carry any slugs for the shotgun anymore?

"Shooting for the chest" should be sufficient for a tiger, same as anything else. It's not trying to hit an elephants brain, just tear up the heart/lung area.

News:

Author Topic: I guess .40 S&W can work against Tigers (Read 22548 times)