Author Topic: Save The Earth, Kill A Human  (Read 14637 times)

CAnnoneer

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2006, 07:02:42 PM »
I wonder if the vikings at Gardar had the same bickerings right before the end.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2006, 07:08:08 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I read Guns Germs and Steel and found Diamond's theories in it to be highly lacking.  I haven't yet read his newer book, because I frankly doubt it will be any better than his first. 

So, which part of Guns exactly did you find highly lacking?

Also, maybe you should first read "Collapse" before dismissing it so cavalierly.

mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2006, 07:10:18 PM »
Quote
I wonder if the vikings at Gardar had the same bickerings right before the end.

I doubt it, just like this group, incest has a tendency to make people stupid and depressed. Would that be an example of mediocre wit?

mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2006, 07:16:04 PM »
Quote
So, which part of Guns exactly did you find highly lacking?

Sorry to post two in a row but I would like to say to Cannon man that my favorite part of Guns was about the lack of domesticated animal candidates in Africa compared to Eurasia. That really made world history alot clearer for me. Especially his view of how important oxen were. The Africans were pretty much screwed by this circumstance and never had a chance to compete with the rest of the world.

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2006, 02:24:55 AM »
Oy.

Global warming has nothing to do with this thread. Sorry.

The article stated that humans are "using up" the Earth.  I dont know what the solution is, other than what I suggested. The evidence against that view is so overwhelming it ought to be obvious.  Of course it isnt because the idea of evil humans raping the earth and causing their own downfall is just too appealing.  Especially in the pocketbook.
Humans are resources as well as consumers.  As someone mentioned before all the unpleasantness, developed countries are more efficient in energy and other usages than less developed countries.  3rd world countries are far more polluted than western countries.  So the notion that development causes depletion is simply dead wrong.
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Iain

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2006, 03:10:24 AM »
Unless you were to pursue the argument that developed countries have farmed all their unpleasant and polluting manufacturing out to under developed countries. Just off the top of my head, not sure that this would have an substance, just a potential argument that I could see being put forward.

There is obviously something Malthusian about the argument about potential resources. Malthus couldn't envisage agriculture producing more than a certain amount and yet his trap was beaten within fairly short order (in fact seem to remember reading in some history journal that his trap was flawed and never existed). Anyway allowing development, with reasonable expectations of cleanliness and an expectation of honesty regarding the science that has and may arise on human environmental impact, will more than likely help side step any resource depletion issue.
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roo_ster

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2006, 06:38:05 AM »
Iain:

Check out the GDPs of the underdeveloped countries and I think the first argument becomes untenable.  For more detail, look at their exports.  They produce very little and what they do produce is at a stupendous cost in resources relative to first-tier countries.  Some greenies whine & squeal about how many resources America uses (inputs), but fail to look at the output.  (Heck, we pay our farmers to not produce so they don't bust the bottom out of the agricultural markets.) Relative to almost all other countries, our output/input is much greater. Relative to 3rd/4th world countries, the output/input delta is measured in orders of magnitude.  Put simply, the USA & other 1st world countries are more efficient users of resources.
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roo_ster

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2006, 07:32:12 AM »
I don't think efficiency is the chief argument here. You can have a maximally efficient "engine" but you still need "fuel" to run it. The fundamental argument is total consumption and the resulting footprint and depletion. Certain resources are renewable, e.g. timber and certain metals, but others are not, fossil fuels being the obvious example. If we have large populations and move the 3rd world into 1st world, we will consume far more as a whole even at top efficiency, which might not have insurmountable problems with renewables, but will have dire consequences in depletion of the non-renewables. If you do not believe this, please explain where you are going to get enough oil to have China, India, etc. to run as many cars per capita as we do. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2006, 08:16:54 AM »
That is an argument that hinges on projecting present conditions into the future.  Such arguments always fail.
In 1900 there was a move to ban horses and buggies in NY because if you projected the city's growth into the future there would be not be enough space for all the horse manure.  Obviously the automobile changed all that.  Same thing here.
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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2006, 09:42:49 AM »
If you melted down the asteroid belts and made 40 mile long spinning cylinders out of them for people to live in, the solar system could support about 300 billion people in luxury. I guess we would come back to earth for camping trips. I read that in some article. The article also said there would be a cure for old age in the next 30 years so even if every two people had one child we would need those several hundred thousand habitats for humanity in space within a few centuries. I think this is what you are betting on when you talk about there not being a problem with sustainability. I am skeptical.

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2006, 09:52:18 AM »
And if every person in China consumed as much food as John Candy, travelled as much as Hilary Clinton and built a house like Bill Gates then we'd run out of raw resources next week.  Of course that isnt going to happen. 
Remember all those piles of used tires and the complaints about how they would bury us?  Don't see that anymore, right? Ever wonder why?
Again, we saw all this garbage in the 1970s and those of us who remember it remember it was bunk then, and it hasnt gotten any more believable with age.
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mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2006, 10:05:43 AM »
Quote
Remember all those piles of used tires and the complaints about how they would bury us?  Don't see that anymore, right? Ever wonder why?

It is an insult to everyone's intelligence to keep throwing those red herrings. Can you stop doing that?

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2006, 10:12:10 AM »
It's a red herring that technical ingenuity solved what was perceived as a major environmental problem?  Or is it rather an unwelcome counter-example to the gloom and doom thesis?
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mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2006, 10:17:27 AM »
If I am on a ship and I notice something wrong with it and start talking about it and certain people start yelling at me to stop being a gloom and doomer, who is being stupid?

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2006, 10:31:54 AM »
If I am on a ship and I notice something wrong with it and start talking about it and certain people start yelling at me to stop being a gloom and doomer, who is being stupid?

It depends.
If you see a giant iceberg dead ahead then you're a hero.
If you see water in the bottom and yell about it, only to find out most ships take on and pump out water, then you're stupid.
It is a matter of detailed knowledge.  And you haven't demonstrated any thus far.

But is your question an answer to my query?
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mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2006, 10:43:54 AM »
Quote
It is a matter of detailed knowledge.  And you haven't demonstrated any thus far.

But is your question an answer to my query?

I notice that people here like to constantly accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being stupid, not giving facts, data, etc.  I can give you examples like, "oh, they said we would be buried in tires and we are not" all day long if you consider that a demonstration of detailed knowledge. I dont. Lewis and Clark crossed north america a while back and saw buffaloe from horizon to horizon, when the puritans landed at plymouth rock they saw schools of cod ten miles across. Passenger pigeons would actually blot out the sun like an eclipse. Now if you think living in a steaming garbage dump eating chemically tainted food is a great future for your grandchildren, then you have nothing to worry about. I am worried.

richyoung

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2006, 10:52:06 AM »
Quote
It is a matter of detailed knowledge.  And you haven't demonstrated any thus far.

But is your question an answer to my query?

I notice that people here like to constantly accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being stupid, not giving facts, data, etc.  I can give you examples like, "oh, they said we would be buried in tires and we are not" all day long if you consider that a demonstration of detailed knowledge. I dont. Lewis and Clark crossed north america a while back and saw buffaloe from horizon to horizon, when the puritans landed at plymouth rock they saw schools of cod ten miles across. Passenger pigeons would actually blot out the sun like an eclipse. Now if you think living in a steaming garbage dump eating chemically tainted food is a great future for your grandchildren, then you have nothing to worry about. I am worried.

You are worried for NOTHING.  The food, water and air is cleaner NOW than it has ever been in history.  Don't beleive it?  Stand down wind from a camel or buffaloe dung fire - now immagine using it to cook your food, heat your house, wash your clothes.
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mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2006, 10:56:22 AM »
How can people be so out of touch with reality? Ridiculous. I will go right out and stand next to a buffaloe and camel dung fire and that will prove the air is cleaner than it has ever been? Somebody say something please.

The Rabbi

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2006, 11:10:14 AM »
I'll say that you are adding little to the discussion.  When challenged you give inappropriate responses and repeat discredited mantras.  We already have enough emotionalism and lack of appropriate responses here.  We sure dont need more.
There is more forrest in New England now than there was 200 years ago.  The Hudson River is cleaner now than it was 50 years ago.  Boston Harbor is cleaner now than probably 100 years ago.  We could go on and on.  But you keep throwing our grandchildren into this ("do it for the children!") and positing garbage dumps and polluted food.  And there is no evidence for these assertions at all.  It is only "absolutely clear."  Yeah, to someone committed to that idea.  To the rest of us who have heard these things and seen predictions of 30 years ago go way unfulfilled it is not obvious at all.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2006, 11:41:40 AM »
Rabbi,

Just because there are a few radical quacks out there does not nullify real problems. Yes, they may be wrong about many things, but use your own judgment and the availability of neutral information. The reality is that oil production is slowing down because "easy crude" is running out, while consumption is rising ominously. China and India are modernizing and require the same living standards as us. Exactly how is this not a crisis in the making? Beating up quacks will not produce the oil we will need.

richyoung

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2006, 11:47:56 AM »
Rabbi,

Just because there are a few radical quacks out there does not nullify real problems. Yes, they may be wrong about many things, but use your own judgment and the availability of neutral information. The reality is that oil production is slowing down because "easy crude" is running out, while consumption is rising ominously. China and India are modernizing and require the same living standards as us. Exactly how is this not a crisis in the making? Beating up quacks will not produce the oil we will need.


As price rises, it makes more sense to drill deeper, further off shore, or to convert coal into oil - as the Nazis and South Africans did.  It also makes more sense to use alternatives, to use alternate processes that use less, to recycle, etc.  Its not a crisis in the making IF you understand market forces:  the same "invisible hand" that got us through the Great Whale Oil Shortage, and that keeps us from having to pass mounds of unused buggy whips on the way to work will handle the oil "shortage".
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Iain

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2006, 11:53:18 AM »
You're not wrong in parts CAnonneer, but I think the Rabbi's point is that you are assuming that the society of the future will depend on the same resources as our present society.

Start producing masses of nuclear power and you've got a whole different set of problems, but you've also got the possibility that many many urban dwellers will use electric cars (assuming not particularly huge advances in battery technology). Certainly there are a lot of people in the UK who do under 50 miles a day, cheaper non fossil fuel dependent electricity and cheaper battery technology and it isn't a million miles off. Of course there are bound to be problems with my scenario (expense of nuclear power and objections to waste) but it's just an example.

As you say though, there is a sensible middle ground between denying there is a problem and screaming about the end of the world.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2006, 11:59:22 AM »
If you melted down the asteroid belts and made 40 mile long spinning cylinders out of them for people to live in, the solar system could support about 300 billion people in luxury. I guess we would come back to earth for camping trips. I read that in some article. The article also said there would be a cure for old age in the next 30 years so even if every two people had one child we would need those several hundred thousand habitats for humanity in space within a few centuries. I think this is what you are betting on when you talk about there not being a problem with sustainability. I am skeptical.
What we're betting on is free market capitalism.

Perhaps we should start with the fundamentals before trying to explain why the doom and gloomers weren't right back in the 1970's, and why they aren't right today.  You hafta learn to walk before you learn to run, right?

There are two fundamental truths that govern the availability and the cost of every type of goods or resources. 

The first is that supply is inversely proportional to demand (when supply goes up, demand goes down; when supply goes down, demand goes up).  The second is that the price of any given good or resource is proportional to the demand (when demand goes up, price goes up).  The cost of any particular good is proportional it's demand.

The second is that in a free market system, both entrepreneurs and consumers will constantly adjust to changing market conditions.  Entrepreneurs will constantly be adapting to the current business climate, be they taxes, cost of materials, consumer demand, competition, or any of another million and one factors.  Consumers will vary their buying habits to accomodate any changes in avaiability or porice of their preferred products (if Coke were to suddenly tripple in price, most consumers would switch to Pepsi and go on about their lives.  The die-hard Coke fans, for whom there is no substitute, will pay the trippled price because to them it's still worth it)


Now, switchin tacks to the earth and resource depletion...

Most lay people assume that drawing resources out of the earth is like drawing money out of your checking account.  They think that humanity can effortlessly draw resources up out of the earth at any rate we wish, just like they can effortlessly withdraw funds from their account at any rate they wish.  They further think that one day the earth will run cold out of resources if we keep pulling those resources out, just like one day their bank account will run dry if they keep making withdrawals.

This model of the earth and her resources as a bank account is erroneous.

The earth and her resources behave more like a soggy wet blanket (I'm struggling to come up with a good analogy here, please bear with me).  The blanket is the earth, and the water it's soaked with are the resources.  When you want to pull some water/resources out of that soggy blanket/earth, you grab a corner and squeeze, out comes a stream of water.  When you want some more water, you grab another part of that blanket and squeeze some more. You continue around the blanket until most surfaces have been given a good squeeze.  Eventually there comes a point where squeezing more doesn't yield as much water as it once did.  You have to squeeze harder to get the same amount of water, or if you don't want to squeeze as hard you must content yourself to having less water.  Things start to look bleak for our hypothetical planet earth and her valuable resources.  But suddenly you have a brainstorm and realize that if you twist the blanket instead of squeeze it, you get that nice heavy flow of water again.  Your own innate cleverness and ingenuity has overcome the problem of running out of blanket surfae to squeeze for water.  So you go over the entire blanket twisting water out instead of squeezing it out, once more enjoying a steady and reliable stream of water.  Once again you reach a point where you aren't yuielding as much water as you'd like.  So you sit down and brainstorm some more.  Once again you come up with a new idea: fold part of the blanket over on itself and then wring it out.  Once again your ingenuity has yielded a steady stream of water from the blanket.  Eventually you give up, eithe becuase you're bored, or becuae you realized that there's a lot more water to be had from the faucet, or becuase you don't need any more water.  The blanket is still plenty wet, it never came anywhere close to drying out regardless of how much you squeezed and twisted and wringed (wrang? wrung? eh, whatever).

Likewise, when humanity wants some particular resource from the earth, we locate the right corner of the globe and "squeeze" it by mining, farming, drilling, or whatever.  When we want some more, we locate another spot and mine/drill/etc some more.  When we run out of areas to "squeeze", we come up with smarter, more techologocally advanced methods of resoucre extraction.  We start to twist instead of squeeze, and suddenly we're able to revisit areas that were formerly devoid of extracable resources.

The bottom line is that we don't ever run out of resources.  We find that some resources become more scarce and/or more difficult to retrieve.  If we still want more resources, we come up with better ways to extract them.  If we can't come up with any better methods of extraction, we figure out how to make use of some other resource that we can extract.  But any given resource will never, ever be completely gone.  The worst that will happen is that it will cease to make economic sense to go after a particular resource.

Now we combine the economic principles discussed earlier with the proper understanding of resource depletion we just covered.

When resources become more scarce (supply decreases) then demand for that will go up.  Price will go up alongside demand.  When prices for that resource go up, it becomes economical to spend more money retreiving that resource (i.e. it becomes worht your while to squeeze the blanket harder, because you're getting paid more for the smaller amount water you get out).  Also, when prices go up consumers willand entrepreneus fill other ways to satisfy their needs using different resources (maybe some water from those mud puddles over there will work just as well for your purpose as the water you squeeze from the blanket - you no longer bother with squeezing the blanket).

Both entrepreneurs and consumers will adapt, either by finding a better way to recover the resource, or by switching to another resoucrce or by finding a better way to recover.  Life goes on without a hitch.

Take as an example the availability of Walnut trees for use in making rifle stocks.  It used to be that walnut was the de facto standard material for building a proper rifle stock.  But over the years, due primarily to two world wars and the need to build bazillions of walnut stocks for 1903s, 1917s, and M1s, we now find ourselves with a dearth of walnut for new gunstocks.  Walnut isn't gone, there are still walnut trees out there, there just aren't very many any more, and it's harder/costlier for timber prospecter to find good walnut trees.  If you really want a walnut stock for your new rifle you can have it, but it's gonna cost a lot more. 

Now, the free market steps in.  Someone clever came up with the idea of making stocks out of laminated wood.  Someone else clever came up with the idea of making stocks out of synthetic materials.  We now have riflestocks that are just as cheap as the old walnut stocks were before we ran low.  The newer stocks even have some advantages of the older ones.  Rifle shooters continue on without a hitch.

The bottom line is that, even though we've used up most of the walnut out there and won't be able to replace it for a generation or three, the shooting public never missed a beat.  Quality, effective rifles are just as available today as they were before the resource depletion, thanks to supply/demand, the ingenuity of the entrepren, and the adaptability of the consumer.  And for those purists out there, there are still walnut stocks available if you really want one.

ALL resources behave this way.  Crude oil (what happened last year when gas prices topped $3/gal?  The public started buying smaller, more efficient cars, they started carpooling, they started driving less.  Life when on) iron, copper, timber, tillable farmland, energy, yopu name it.  Once supply starts to run low, demand goes up.  It becomes more valuable for entrempreneurs find smarter and more effective ways to recover those resources, thus working to drive supply up and demand back down.  It becomes more advantageous for consumers to purchase less of that resource, opting to either do without or to use something else in it's place, which tends to drive demand down and supply back up.

The system works in equillibrium, always.  The resource never, ever runs out completely, and the end consumer is never, ever left hanging.  Life, as always, goes on.  The doom and gloomers are proven wrong, just as they have been since the beginning of time.

Now, a key facet of this system is that it only works inthe presence of free market capitalism.  The equiullibrium fails if entrepreneurs aren't free to pursue smarter ways to recover resources.  The equillibrium fails if entrepreneurs aren't free to adapt their business to changing conditions.  The equillibrium fails if consumers aren't afforded free choice over what products to buy and what products to pass on. 

THIS is why I oppose environmentalists so fervently.  They seek to scare us with predictions of apocalyptic resource shortage, whiche we've shown never happens in a free market system.  They're solution to the "problem" of these "shortages" is to tamper with the free market, which we've shown CAN and WILL created shortages.  Thus the very environmentalists who scare us with phony fears of shortages will be the ones to cause real resource shortages for everyone. 

Ironic, innit?  And perhaps a little bit scary, too.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2006, 11:59:50 AM »
Whew, that turned out to be a heckuva long post.  Sorry y'all.  Tongue

mak

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Re: Save The Earth, Kill A Human
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2006, 12:19:12 PM »
Free market worshippers should move to Brazil. That is as close to a perfect free market system on the planet. And it is a wonderful place; 1 percent own 99 percent of everything. The rest live in their little tenement blocks and serve the elite who have always had everything and always will. There is no safety net. Street urchins are regularly rounded up by off duty police, taken out into the country and shot. Cant pay the doctor...then die. That is what inevitably happens in a free market without controls or redistribution of wealth. The free market mantra is why everybody here drives japanese cars and buys chinese products and the national debt continues to climb. (oh, but that's not what they are telling us). The conservative world view is rapidly becoming a joke the rest of the world is laughing at. The brainwashed far right is what is going cause the fall of the american empire, not the far left. The far left is, contrary to what you have been told, relatively harmless. It is corporate america that is going to make slaves of us all and wants America to become "Brazil North." Thats the opposing opinion in a nutshell Gunner. Try not flip out too bad replying. I want what is best for everyone just like you. The difference between us is I have an open mind and yours is made up forever. If you want to read something completely at odds with your survival of the fittest worldview, try the sermon on the mount and gospels.