Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 09, 2007, 11:12:22 AM
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t Least 4 Shot Outside New Life Church
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (CBS4) ― At least four people were shot outside New Life Church on Sunday, but it was not immediately clear if any of them died, El Paso County Sheriff's Lt. Lari Sevene said.
It was not immediately known if the shootings were connected with shootings earlier Sunday at a missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvada some 65 miles to the north. Two people died in the Arvada incident.
Lance Coles, a pastor at New Life Church, told The Associated Press he received a report that a man was shooting at people in the church parking lot and that the gunman may have entered the church.
New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three year cash-for-sex relationship.
Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted to undisclosed "sexual immorality."
The church is one of Colorado's largest with about 10,000 members.
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (CBS4) ― At least four people were shot outside New Life Church on Sunday, but it was not immediately clear if any of them died, El Paso County Sheriff's Lt. Lari Sevene said.
It was not immediately known if the shootings were connected with shootings earlier Sunday at a missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvada some 65 miles to the north. Two people died in the Arvada incident.
Lance Coles, a pastor at New Life Church, told The Associated Press he received a report that a man was shooting at people in the church parking lot and that the gunman may have entered the church.
New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three year cash-for-sex relationship.
Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted to undisclosed "sexual immorality."
The church is one of Colorado's largest with about 10,000 members.
http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/12292776.html
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11 News has reports of a shooting at New Life Church. Early reports are that there is a gunman inside and that there are multiple victims.
The Associated Press is reporting that four people have been shot. This is the second such shooting in Colorado today. Early this morning a lone gunman shot four people in an Arvada missionary training center, two of those victims have died.
Stay with 11 News, we have a crew on the scene and we'll have updates as soon as they come in.
The Associated Press is reporting that four people have been shot. This is the second such shooting in Colorado today. Early this morning a lone gunman shot four people in an Arvada missionary training center, two of those victims have died.
Stay with 11 News, we have a crew on the scene and we'll have updates as soon as they come in.
I can only hope that someone at new life is carrying today.
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on December 09, 2007, 12:07:42 PM
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 09, 2007, 12:28:46 PM
Post by: Tallpine on December 09, 2007, 12:32:21 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 09, 2007, 01:07:16 PM
And that, my friends, is why I carry at church.....
I remember talking to an elderly Jewish man who mentioned that he always carried in temple.
He had a number tattoo on his left arm, too. So I think he understood what it was like to feel helpless, and never wanted to again.
Post by: gunsmith on December 09, 2007, 02:54:01 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 09, 2007, 03:25:01 PM
Post by: Marnoot on December 09, 2007, 03:39:50 PM
One more incident that should NOT be making national news.
This is one that definitely shouldn't be making national news:
Woman Accused of Bringing Loaded Handgun into DisneyWorld:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316267,00.html
Post by: 280plus on December 09, 2007, 04:13:47 PM
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Stringent, zero-tolerance, security measures have been in place at all Central Florida theme parks since September 11, 2001.
Ahhh, another bunch of nicely cleansed soft targets. How convenient for the bad guys. Post by: Perd Hapley on December 09, 2007, 06:25:50 PM
One more incident that should NOT be making national news.
Just to clarify, you don't think mass shootings should be on national news? Or is there something about this particular incident that makes it less-than-nationally-newsworthy?
Post by: Manedwolf on December 09, 2007, 06:42:22 PM
The parks, their security is scary good. If someone even gets loud, very large men with earpieces just appear out of nowhere and escort them through a nearby door.
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 09, 2007, 08:21:50 PM
Just to clarify, you don't think mass shootings should be on national news? Or is there something about this particular incident that makes it less-than-nationally-newsworthy?
I don't believe mass shootings are national news. They are local tragedy at best. Crap happens all the time, everywhere. But the media are so thirsty for feeding our dark sides that they love picking up stories like that. On top, such reporting generates unhealthy and unfair levels of worry among the public about firearms, something gungrabbers LOVE to exploit.
Somehow the same media do not pick up stories where lawful gunowners have saved themselves or others exactly because they ARE armed. It pisses me off to no end.
fistful, it is possible, albeit unlikely, that you may think my being agnostic makes me devalue the lives of believers. Let me assure you that is emphatically not so.
Post by: Zsa-Zsa on December 09, 2007, 09:39:07 PM
fistful, it is possible, albeit unlikely, that you may think my being agnostic makes me devalue the lives of believers. Let me assure you that is emphatically not so.
I'm not "fistful", but I'd like to make an answer to this statement... as a "Believer" with a capital "B" I think that G-d's love for non-believers is exactly the same as G-ds love for believers - in that we are all his children...
I believe G-d literally, spiritually and physically, chose to torture himself to death and to suffer three days in hell (in the person of Christ) for I and for you...
You'll remember this on your deathbed. ...you may not believe in g-d, but g-d believes in you.
Regards, Andrew
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 09, 2007, 10:27:36 PM
Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.
Post by: Jamisjockey on December 10, 2007, 03:02:28 AM
Zsa,
Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.
Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.
I'm an athiest and I don't dispute the existance of Jesus.
Christians are not followers of the old testament. They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
Post by: 280plus on December 10, 2007, 03:32:28 AM
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The parks, their security is scary good. If someone even gets loud, very large men with earpieces just appear out of nowhere and escort them through a nearby door.
I wonder if they are armed?
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 10, 2007, 06:13:55 AM
Christians are not followers of the old testament.
Then who is? Between the Jews, Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Bahai (I think) and dozens of other groups, it's amazing how many people want to claim the Old Testament. Yet it "leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus."* Isn't that odd?
*CAnnoneer
Post by: Manedwolf on December 10, 2007, 07:16:13 AM
That's to the point that it can't be a mistake anymore, I think.
Post by: Zsa-Zsa on December 10, 2007, 07:23:14 AM
Zsa,
Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.
Just to be clear - agnostics do not deny that Jesus existed or the he died believing he was doing it to save humanity. We are simply not convinced Jesus was/became a divine being. As far as Y goes, the Old Testament leaves a decidedly negative impression; it is hard to reconcile Y's random cruelty and vengefulness with the pity, mercy, or self-sacrifice as exhibited by Jesus. Apparent discrepancies like that are some of the serious sources of doubt for us agnostics.
I don't at all deny your statement about your belief system. I believe that you believe what you do...and I cannot change it. I believe that there is nothing wrong with an "agnostic" believing the person of "Jesus Christ" existed, and that believing that takes nothing away from their thought system. I fully accept that you believe Jesus Christ was just a good human being. I wasn't actually "challenging" you to a debate of our beliefs...more, I was making a simple statement of my own belief. That Jesus believes in you. He will reach out to you before your death.
regards, Andrew
Post by: Zsa-Zsa on December 10, 2007, 07:48:39 AM
I'm an athiest...
Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...
Christians are not followers of the old testament. They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
No, they aren't, and they shouldn't do so. Christians should look at the old testament as the revealed Word of G-d, but not as an instruction manual for Christians. Each and every one of the books of the "Old Testament" were specifically given by G-d to the children of Israel, each of them at a specific time and for a specific location. Christians should look to the New Testament for a recounting of what they shouldn't do, and more importantly what they should do.. as rabbi "Yeshua ben joseph" (I know you've heard that name somewhere, said to us "Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Doing these two things is the only requirement to being a good Christian.
Post by: Jamisjockey on December 10, 2007, 07:57:11 AM
I'm an athiest...
Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...
Christians are not followers of the old testament. They may teach out of it, but so do Mormons
No, they aren't, and they shouldn't do so. Christians should look at the old testament as the revealed Word of G-d, but not as an instruction manual for Christians. Each and every one of the books of the "Old Testament" were specifically given by G-d to the children of Israel, each of them at a specific time and for a specific location. Christians should look to the New Testament for a recounting of what they shouldn't do, and more importantly what they should do.. as rabbi "Yeshua ben joseph" (I know you've heard that name somewhere, said to us "Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Doing these two things is the only requirement to being a good Christian.
Actually, just for clarification, I'm an athiest who believes that there are other possibilities besides my belief that there isn't a god. Of course because of the laws of the universe, I believe the possibilites are so infininte they cannot be counted.
I find it easier to say I'm athiest than to say agnostic. If you say athiest, all the zealots just think you're the devil. Tell 'em you're agnostic, and they immediately begin trying to convert you
And the rest of your statement was well said.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 10, 2007, 08:13:00 AM
I'm an athiest...
Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith. A "pure" agnostic" (not that very many of them exist) certainly has the intellectual high ground...
Stand_waitie, could you clarify? If they have the intellectual high ground, why aren't you one of them?
Post by: mike on December 10, 2007, 08:33:17 AM
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 10, 2007, 09:14:09 AM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 10, 2007, 09:32:27 AM
Guard was a female volunteer.
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A New Life parishioner acting as a security guard shot and killed a gunman who entered the church Sunday afternoon after he had gotten no more than 50 feet inside the building, Boyd said.
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Boyd said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church.
"She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon.
"She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon.
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The pastor also said New Life had taken extra precautions Sunday after hearing of the attack in Arvada, Colorado, early Sunday morning, in which a gunman killed two people after he was refused lodging at Youth With a Mission live-in Christian missionary center.
Post by: geronimotwo on December 10, 2007, 11:08:54 AM
the pastor, in the above link, states that the shooter had no connection to the chuch. but, the article posted by dasmi states that previously he was a part of the mission program that has a group at this church.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings_50;_ylt=ApWKQk14YvU8rQziNdWYRnxH2ocA
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Violent crimes of any sort are tragic enough, but when innocent people are killed in a religious facility or a place of worship, we must voice a collective sense of outrage and demonstrate a renewed commitment to keeping our communities safe," said Gov. Bill Ritter
i'm not certain why the governor would imply that some lives or buildings are more important than others.
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 10, 2007, 11:13:28 AM
i'm not certain why the governor would imply that some lives or buildings are more important than others.
Historically, religious violence is easier to incite and organize. Although I am not a fan of the "hate crime" mentality and legislation, there is a rational argument about special attention being paid by a society to religion-motivated violence. I will give the governor the benefit of doubt that that is the line of reasoning that led him to make the statement.
Post by: Devonai on December 10, 2007, 11:15:27 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 10, 2007, 11:22:23 AM
Firearms thus still should be restricted to law enforcement/military.
Post by: Devonai on December 10, 2007, 11:26:28 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 10, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
*** thread drift detected ***
What was your first clue?
i'm not certain why the governor would imply that some lives or buildings are more important than others.
Historically, religious violence is easier to incite and organize. Although I am not a fan of the "hate crime" mentality and legislation, there is a rational argument about special attention being paid by a society to religion-motivated violence. I will give the governor the benefit of doubt that that is the line of reasoning that led him to make the statement.
Might it be a little early to conclude that the two shootings were "religously-motivated"?
I think the Gov. was just voicing the usual reaction most people have about crimes in religious settings. We like to think of them as safe places. That's partly why the Catholic sexual abuse cases were so widely-reported, versus sexual abuse cases happening in other settings. The same sort of reaction we used to have to school shootings, before they became semi-annual events.
Post by: geronimotwo on December 10, 2007, 02:30:04 PM
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The same sort of reaction we used to have to school shootings, before they became semi-annual events.
at least this church had a plan of action, which is more than can be said for most schools.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 10, 2007, 05:45:26 PM
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-12-11T011025Z_01_N09332256_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SHOOTING-COLORADO-COL.XML&archived=False
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"I heard shots fired. There was chaos. The shots were so loud, I thought he was inside. I saw him coming through the doors," Assam told reporters.
Assam said she then took cover, identified herself to the gunman and "I took him down." She credited God for her survival because of "the firepower he had compared to what I had."
I wonder what she had?
Assam said she then took cover, identified herself to the gunman and "I took him down." She credited God for her survival because of "the firepower he had compared to what I had."
Post by: Zsa-Zsa on December 10, 2007, 06:09:05 PM
...
Stand_waitie, could you clarify? If they have the intellectual high ground, why aren't you one of them?
Stand_waitie, could you clarify? If they have the intellectual high ground, why aren't you one of them?
Because I believe Jesus is G-d incarnate.
Post by: wooderson on December 10, 2007, 06:10:51 PM
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Sorry to hear that. As a man of faith myself, I know how difficult it is to be a person of faith.
Does it require 'faith' to not believe in banshees?
Post by: Bogie on December 10, 2007, 09:02:12 PM
Good thing too.
Post by: roo_ster on December 11, 2007, 04:15:40 AM
Post by: grampster on December 11, 2007, 04:39:44 AM
She is a brave person with a good tactical head on her shoulders. She took cover, thought about it, got the drop on him, moved forward to close the distance, gave him an instant to drop his weapon, and then shot him dead when he didn't. Perfect!
She is one of a group of armed volunteers that were interviewed by the church and then put in place. She mentioned that her group works together at church functions. The implication is that they must train a bit. I didn't catch the whole interview.
I think folks like her ought to be cited for bravery and awarded the civilian medal for bravery. She qualifies more so than some left wing Hollywood moonbat that is now praised and honored.
Post by: geronimotwo on December 11, 2007, 05:15:40 AM
here is an interview with the "security guard". she claims to have been a police officer for 14 years. that would explain her reaction. she does use the term assualt rifle to describe the shooters gun.
Post by: Tallpine on December 11, 2007, 06:28:37 AM
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previously he was a part of the mission program that has a group at this church
YWAM is a global organization, and they draw people from hundreds or even thousands of churches.
Post by: Desertdog on December 11, 2007, 08:28:10 AM
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She is one of a group of armed volunteers that were interviewed by the church and then put in place.
To me, this means they have several members of the church with CCW permits that they have requested them to bring their guns to church and to respond to trouble. Not LEOs but armed citizens.I do not think anybody else will try to bring a gun to that church and attack it.
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Because I believe Jesus is G-d incarnate.
Why be PC? It really should read "Because I believe Jesus is God incarnate."
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 11, 2007, 08:51:12 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 11, 2007, 09:01:10 AM
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COLORADO SPRINGS, Dec. 10 -- A heavily armed man who killed four young people at a missionary training center and a church Sunday apparently intended to gun down many more victims before he was shot by a church security guard, authorities said Monday.
The gunman, identified as Matthew Murray 24, of Englewood, Colo., was carrying an assault rifle, two handguns and as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition when he shot his way into the huge New Life Church in Colorado Springs and was confronted and shot by Jeanne Assam, a former police officer who was serving as a volunteer security guard, police said.
The gunman, identified as Matthew Murray 24, of Englewood, Colo., was carrying an assault rifle, two handguns and as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition when he shot his way into the huge New Life Church in Colorado Springs and was confronted and shot by Jeanne Assam, a former police officer who was serving as a volunteer security guard, police said.
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Boyd said Assam is a "highly trained" volunteer with a law enforcement background who also serves as his bodyguard.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121001348.html?hpid=sec-nation
Because, of course, police officers are always police officers, even if they're not or got fired or whatever. They're like mystical Jedi with special gun skills that a civilian can't ever have.
They can't have the sheep thinking that one of them, an ordinary, armed civilian stopped this murderer. No, no, that wouldn't do at all...
Also note:
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Murray, who was home-schooled in a deeply religious Christian household,
They're harping on the home-schooling, all the nooz sources. Notice that?
Because not putting your kid in the statist education centers is eeeeeeeevil.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 11, 2007, 10:57:06 AM
Most of these mass killings have been by state-schooled kids and adults, so they are trying to demonstrate diversity in their reporting. You know, being inclusive so the home schoolers don't feel left out.
Post by: 280plus on December 11, 2007, 11:06:47 AM
Post by: Desertdog on December 11, 2007, 11:09:27 AM
Police: Church Gunman Killed Himself
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8TFFELO2&show_article=1
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The man who killed four people at a church and missionary training center shot himself in the head and died after being hit by shots from a church security officer, police said Tuesday.
Matthew Murray, 24, was struck multiple times by a security officer at New Life Church Sunday, but his death was ruled a suicide, the El Paso County Coroner's Office concluded after an autopsy.
Murray shot himself in the head, said police Sgt. Skip Arms.
Volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam shot Murray after he entered the church. Though investigators had earlier suggested he killed himself, they credited Assam's bravery with averting a greater tragedy.
Assam, a 42-year-old former Minneapolis police officer, said her faith allowed her to remain steady under pressure.
"It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," she said, her hands trembling as she recounted the shooting during a news conference Monday.
The first attack Sunday took place at Youth With a Mission, a training center for missionaries in the Denver suburb of Arvada; the other occurred about 12 hours later at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs.
Officials said revenge was one apparent motive for the attacks. Police said Murray had sent hate mail to the Youth With a Mission center in the last few weeks after being removed from the program years ago.
In a statement, the training center said health problems kept Murray from finishing the program, but elaborated little. Murray did not complete the lecture phase or a field assignment as part of a 12-week program, Youth With a Mission said.
Authorities also believe Murray authored an anti-Christian diatribe online that closely repeated a rant by one of the Columbine killers, a newspaper reported Tuesday.
The most recent post to the site, a forum for people who have left evangelical religious groups, was Sunday morning in the hours between his attacks in Arvada and Colorado Springs, according to KUSA-TV in Denver, which first reported on the writings.
"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to the station, which did not identify the site. "All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."
The language in the post is almost identical to the text of a manifesto written by Eric Harris, one of the teens who carried out the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School.
The online posts, under the pen name "nghtmrchld26," spanned several weeks, and in an earlier one, Murray appeared to reject offers of psychological help.
"I've already been working with counselors. I have a point to make with all this talk about psychologists and counselors `helping people with their pain,'" he wrote, according to KUSA.
The station said Murray's posts were removed from the site after Sunday's killings, and that authorities were aware of them and investigating. Police in Colorado Springs and Arvada would not comment on the writings.
In a search warrant affidavit, investigators said Murray attended a home-based computer school and worked at his computer for three to five hours a day for the past two years. Police said Murray's only previous brush with the law was a traffic ticket earlier this year.
His relatives said they were grief-stricken and baffled.
"We cannot understand why this has happened. We ask for prayer for the victims and their families during this time of grief," said Phil Abeyta, Murray's uncle, who read a statement from the family Monday.
Also Tuesday, Minneapolis police Sgt. Jesse Garcia said Assam was fired from the Minneapolis force in 1997 for lying during an internal investigation. Sgt. John Delmonico, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, said police were investigating a complaint that Assam swore at a bus driver while she was handling an incident on a city bus.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 11, 2007, 11:36:42 AM
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She didn't do it after all.
Yeah she did. She didn't kill him, but she stopped the threat.
That's what you mean to do when you shoot at a bad guy.
Post by: grampster on December 11, 2007, 11:56:14 AM
Oh, and they just had to mention that she got fired from LE. What the hell did that have to do with anything? I just love those media writers. Always looking for some smut. Never content to credit a good and brave act. Always gotta piss on somebody's parade. I got two words for the writer...
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 11, 2007, 11:59:12 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 11, 2007, 12:15:20 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on December 11, 2007, 03:25:46 PM
Post by: 280plus on December 11, 2007, 03:31:40 PM
Post by: Stetson on December 12, 2007, 02:43:16 AM
You mean the EVIL Orlando Disney Empire...
Not EVIL. I just talked to one of the higher ups* there and I was told that they don't stop people unless the are printing badly and or it is visible.
*Because of my job I get to do this on a regular basis
Post by: 280plus on December 13, 2007, 02:23:53 AM
I had a thought, does anyone know the real lesson that can be learned from this event? She took cover and got the drop on him. That's exactly the correct thing to do.