Author Topic: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!  (Read 13822 times)

Balog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 11:15:17 AM »
If you define "war" as any use of military force, no world power has ever not been "continually at war."
Quote from: French G.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

alex_trebek

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 11:17:14 AM »
Ok, so at fault for the term on a technicality.  But it seems like every couple of years this country get sick of being at peace.

Balog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 11:24:07 AM »
Ok, so at fault for the term on a technicality.  But it seems like every couple of years this country get sick of being at peace.

 rolleyes We've been at peace for a lot of years. No rationing, no strict fed.gov media control, no nationalization of industry to meet wartime demands......

Very few people in this country have any idea what it looks like to not be at peace. Indeed, I'd say our reluctance to pursue the military action we do engage in with full vigour is what causes so many issues. If we'd treated some of these things as wars instead of BS "police actions" we'd have been better off.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 11:34:11 AM »
Ok, so at fault for the term on a technicality.  But it seems like every couple of years this country get sick of being at peace.

 rolleyes We've been at peace for a lot of years. No rationing, no strict fed.gov media control, no nationalization of industry to meet wartime demands......

Very few people in this country have any idea what it looks like to not be at peace. Indeed, I'd say our reluctance to pursue the military action we do engage in with full vigour is what causes so many issues. If we'd treated some of these things as wars instead of BS "police actions" we'd have been better off.

This is true. I suggest people look up what life was like in WWII or moreso even in the UK to really understand what "at war" means.

Ever see those books of ration coupons? That was literally all you could buy at the store in terms of meat, butter, sugar and the like.

Balog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 11:37:18 AM »
America hasn't really experienced "war" since the War of Northern Aggression.  rolleyes grin

America has been uniquely blessed in being able to (mostly) fight it's wars away from home.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 11:47:09 AM »
BigSuppliesCo has a cost of $1 for a loaf of bread and sells it to Joe Consumer for $2.

Big Goverment forces BigSuppliesCo to pay a Bread Windfall Tax of 50 cents.

BigSuppliesCo now has a cost of $1.50 for a loaf of bread and sells it to Joe Consumer for $2.50.


And they're too stupid to realize this...


Sorry but this is simply not true, one can very easily encounter a situation where the customer simply won't buy at the increased amount, maybe they'll shop harder and figure a way to buy at a lower price or they'll simply do without.  There is a tendency for costs to cimply be passed on to the consumer but it's very possible that the business might have to eat that cost out of profits. 

Balog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 11:49:47 AM »
Depending on the item. Food and fuel aren't something people can readily choose to do without.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Nick1911

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 11:52:22 AM »
BigSuppliesCo has a cost of $1 for a loaf of bread and sells it to Joe Consumer for $2.

Big Goverment forces BigSuppliesCo to pay a Bread Windfall Tax of 50 cents.

BigSuppliesCo now has a cost of $1.50 for a loaf of bread and sells it to Joe Consumer for $2.50.


And they're too stupid to realize this...


Sorry but this is simply not true, one can very easily encounter a situation where the customer simply won't buy at the increased amount, maybe they'll shop harder and figure a way to buy at a lower price or they'll simply do without.  There is a tendency for costs to cimply be passed on to the consumer but it's very possible that the business might have to eat that cost out of profits. 

Fuel costs $4.00 a gallon.  Are you doing without?  I know I'm not - I have to get to work every day.  And guess what?  Oil companies are doing quite well.  And, providing that there is no price fixing going on, that is their right.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2008, 12:08:38 PM »
Strife, yes.   It is my understanding that the over expansion of the Roman empire caused its inevitable collapse, and also that the resulting dark ages reversed any technological advancements made by the civilization.  Probably can't be directly compared to today, but there are parallels that can be drawn imo.

It isn't so much the wars that I have a problem with, just how they are funded, and the consequences.  I believe in the principle of blow-back (I drank the kool-aid, I know) which a lot of this meddling causes.  I just dont think that this behavior is sustainable, eventually the bill will come, and the children of the people we have killed will avenge someday.

Actually, no.  I can't remember which emporer changed it, but at one point Roman Generals were expected to raise, feed, and pay thier own armies.  Therefore the armies were no longer loyal to Rome, but thier Generals.  And when the Generals were put in positions of lust of new power, civil wars erupted.  That was one of the primary contribitors to the downfall of rome.
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Balog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2008, 12:12:19 PM »
Read Gibbon. Internal corruption and mismanagement, reliance on slaves, the aforementioned civil wars, barbarian hordes........ overexpansion wasn't an issue.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2008, 04:01:07 PM »
Fuel costs $4.00 a gallon.  Are you doing without?  I know I'm not - I have to get to work every day.  And guess what?  Oil companies are doing quite well.  And, providing that there is no price fixing going on, that is their right

Oh, I've changed my life around quite a bit to deal with gas prices, right now I use a lot less then I had even a few months ago, but what, exactly, is incorrect about what I said?  Is everyone going to buy every product regardless of the price increase or will people simply decide it's not worth it at some point?

Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 04:22:47 PM »
Fuel costs $4.00 a gallon.  Are you doing without?  I know I'm not - I have to get to work every day.  And guess what?  Oil companies are doing quite well.  And, providing that there is no price fixing going on, that is their right

Oh, I've changed my life around quite a bit to deal with gas prices, right now I use a lot less then I had even a few months ago, but what, exactly, is incorrect about what I said?  Is everyone going to buy every product regardless of the price increase or will people simply decide it's not worth it at some point?

People can't not buy gas, or they can't get to work.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2008, 05:22:20 PM »
People can't not buy gas, or they can't get to work

People only buy gas for work?  There's no such thing as carpooling?  Trading in your SUV for a more fuel efficient vehicle is impossible?  Using wood for fuel instead of heating oil cannot happen?  Working four 10hr days instead of five 8 hour days cannot be done?  Getting a job closer to home never happens?

Sorry but your previously listed example where a company's profits remain the same no matter what taxes are imposed is simply incorrect, I'm not advocating taxes do to the oil companies doing well but you shouldn't try to argue against socialism using a faulty arguement. 

41magsnub

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 05:30:34 PM »
People can't not buy gas, or they can't get to work

People only buy gas for work?  There's no such thing as carpooling?  Trading in your SUV for a more fuel efficient vehicle is impossible?  Using wood for fuel instead of heating oil cannot happen?  Working four 10hr days instead of five 8 hour days cannot be done?  Getting a job closer to home never happens?

Sorry but your previously listed example where a company's profits remain the same no matter what taxes are imposed is simply incorrect, I'm not advocating taxes do to the oil companies doing well but you shouldn't try to argue against socialism using a faulty arguement. 

It's not just that easy to do.

Car pooling?  Not possible for everyone, need the car at the office.

Trading in the SUV for a more efficient vehicle?  That would in most cases ultimately cost more money, see other threads on this board for details.

Use wood?  Cannot change to that in my town, only houses with a pre-existing fireplace or stove can do that.  No new ones due to the inversion in the winter, damn living in a valley.

Work 4 10's instead of 5 8's?  Wish I could pull that off.

Get a job closer to home?  The economy is not that great, switching jobs is not such an easy thing to do.  Without moving out of state, and even probably then, it's not like it used to be with offers waiting in the wings.

I'm 0/5 on those options, what else do you have?

grey54956

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 05:57:23 PM »
Hey!  I like wealth re-distribution.

I make money.

I spend money on stuff I want.

The money I spend on stuff ends up in some laborer's pocket.

Then, he spends money on stuff he wants, some of which may be made by the company I work for.

Some of that money finds its way back into my pocket.

Huzzah!  Wealth re-distribution!

Now, if the gov't takes my money and gives it to someone else for no other reason than I have money, and he doesn't, that's not wealth re-distribution.

THAT'S #@$&'N STEALING!

 
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2008, 06:10:13 PM »
I'm 0/5 on those options, what else do you have?

Just because you couldn't or wouldn't make those changes doesnt mean that others havent, so other people using less means a decrease in demand.  Even something as simple as a summer vacation is changing, with many people staying much closer to home, and the effect is that people are using less gas than in previous years.

Anyway, you missed the point, Maned's example of corporate profits always remaining the same despite taxes is inaccurate.  There is a limit to how much one can charge for a product before people simply stop buying, and  it doesnt matter if that increased expense is due to govt or to market forces. 

Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2008, 06:44:58 PM »
People can't not buy gas, or they can't get to work

People only buy gas for work?  There's no such thing as carpooling?  Trading in your SUV for a more fuel efficient vehicle is impossible?  Using wood for fuel instead of heating oil cannot happen?  Working four 10hr days instead of five 8 hour days cannot be done?  Getting a job closer to home never happens?

Wow, you sound like an elitist liberal, sorry.

Carpooling how? Nobody who lives near me works near me, that's how it is for most people.

My car gets 32mpg, and gas still hurts.

Wood for fuel? Sure, I'll tell the mananger of my townhouse complex I'm going to bust through a wall and put a pipe out, and ignore the built-in gas central HVAC.

And sure, I'll just tell my boss I'm going to work four days a week instead.

Move closer to work? That's an option, right, when "closer" means either $3000/month for a broom closet for most people, or living in an industrial district.

Maybe I should just take the train that's 45 miles away for the nearest station, or the invisible buses that don't exist and wouldn't go anywhere in the right directions if they did?

Damn, that sounded elitist of you. Ivory-tower elitist.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2008, 07:37:24 PM »
Throw those ad hominem attacks all you want, anything to get the focus off the fact that your point does not hold up to scrutiny when it comes to markets. 

nico

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2008, 08:25:47 PM »
I recently graduated from college, but fear that it might be a complete waste if Obama gets his way.  Also the amount of support he has from people my age (early 20's) concern me, I questioned them as to why they want socialism.  People generally just refused to believe what he really stands for.

Heh, you think you're scared; imagine if you were in a healthcare field.  I'm in dental school.  In 2 years (based on the offers people I know who graduated this year are making) I should be making ~$150k a year.  That sounds like a boatload, but I'll also have $250k (at ~8.5% apr) in loans to pay back.  I'll be making an assload more than the average college graduate, but I'll also have worked (my ass off) for free for 4 years more than the average college graduate, and will have accrued $250k more debt than them.  And that [expletive deleted] acts/talks as if I will have had that salary handed to me.  I don't mean to imply that I'm more deserving than anyone else (meaning lots of people could get through dental school).  But, since I actually invested the time/money in furthering my education, shouldn't I get rewarded for that? 


alex_trebek

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2008, 03:59:39 AM »
Yeah I feel sorry for people our age in the med field.  True national healthcare would probably put them all in the poor house.  My brother is pre-med, also concerned.  Personally I have ~$100,000 in debt for school, so we will see what happens....

The only good thing that could come from true national healthcare is insurance would go away.  From my understanding of our VA healthcare (which I admit is very limited) they have to sign a waver saying they won't sue if the Dr. screws up.  Therefore no malpractice insurance.  Do dentists have malpractice insurance?

Had a friend in the military assisting with surgeries (at least on par with a nurse) who didn't even have an associates degree.

Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2008, 04:19:24 AM »
Throw those ad hominem attacks all you want, anything to get the focus off the fact that your point does not hold up to scrutiny when it comes to markets. 

Um.

You want to maybe say something that makes sense...? Huh?

Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2008, 04:21:45 AM »
Yeah I feel sorry for people our age in the med field.  True national healthcare would probably put them all in the poor house.  My brother is pre-med, also concerned.  Personally I have ~$100,000 in debt for school, so we will see what happens....

The only good thing that could come from true national healthcare is insurance would go away.  From my understanding of our VA healthcare (which I admit is very limited) they have to sign a waver saying they won't sue if the Dr. screws up.  Therefore no malpractice insurance.  Do dentists have malpractice insurance?

Had a friend in the military assisting with surgeries (at least on par with a nurse) who didn't even have an associates degree.

National healthcare with a deliberate Dem scuttling of any sort of tort reform, meaning you'll still have to pay an arm and leg for malpractice insurance...if you can even get it anymore. Because it's become that if someone comes in in pieces, you put them back together and they don't regain full feeling in their pinkie, they'll sue you...and likely get away with it.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2008, 04:34:53 AM »
So what about continuous wars?

The Roman Empire, ancient Egypt, and Western Europe all made their greatest advances during long, long, long periods of continual warfare and endless campaigns.

I'm not sure you'd want to be imitating the culture of the Roman Empire. Or ancient Egypt. Or, to that end, Western Europe.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2008, 04:36:44 AM »
So what about continuous wars?

The Roman Empire, ancient Egypt, and Western Europe all made their greatest advances during long, long, long periods of continual warfare and endless campaigns.

I'm not sure you'd want to be imitating the culture of the Roman Empire. Or ancient Egypt. Or, to that end, Western Europe.

Why not?

And are you going on the actual history, or the comic-book Hollywood popular culture versions that are completely inaccurate?

Did you mean the Roman Empire that had six-story apartment buildings, fast food restaurants with health inspections, widespread organized trade, incredible engineering feats like the still-operating aqueducts and the ability to have settlements quickly equal most of the comforts of a modern suburb with the exception of electricity? The Rome that had professional surgeons with excellent steel instruments who sterilized them in boiling water before surgery, that even did eye cataract operations successfully? The Rome where carpenters used claw and ball hammers, band saws, hacksaws, coping saws, cold chisels and planes pretty much identical to modern ones? Where they made a waterproof concrete we're still trying to figure out? Would that be the Rome of Cicero's oratories before the Senate that make our politicians look like inbred monkeys?

Did you mean the Egypt that was so well organized that it had scheduled water taxis for workers, police department precincts with formalized homicide investigations, and some of history's most skillful mathematicians, astronomers and architects? Where people were often quite healthy, and anyone who could learn to read and write could become a scribe, which was an extremely high-paying position that would probably get them their own nice multi-level villa?

Did you mean the Western Europe of the Renaissance?


Quote
As, then, this is the case, O Catiline, continue as you have begun. Leave the city at last: the gates are open; depart. That Manlian camp of yours has been waiting too long for you as its general. And lead forth with you all your friends, or at least as many as you can; purge the city of your presence; you will deliver me from a great fear, when there is a wall between me and you. Among us you can dwell no longerI will not bear it, I will not permit it, I will not tolerate it. Great thanks are due to the immortal gods, and to this very Jupiter Stator, in whose temple we are, the most ancient protector of this city, that we have already so often escaped so foul, so horrible, and so deadly an enemy to the republic. But the safety of the commonwealth must not be too often allowed to be risked on one man. As long as you, O Catiline, plotted against me while I was the consul elect, I defended myself not with a public guard, but by my own private diligence. When, in the next consular comitia, you wished to slay me when I was actually consul, and your competitors also, in the Campus Martius, I checked your nefarious attempt by the assistance and resources of my own friends, without exciting any disturbance publicly. In short, as often as you attacked me, I by myself opposed you, and that, too, though I saw that my ruin was connected with great disaster to the republic. But now you are openly attacking the entire republic.


Can you imagine any politician today speaking so eloquently, without a prepared speech, in front of our legislators as Cicero delivered that to the Senate? I would love to have been able to sit there and listen to that.

We've lost a lot since then.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Hope, change, and Blame the rich!!
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2008, 04:38:41 AM »
You can't retire comfortably unless you're "rich".

The people you see barely able to move, shuffling around near the door at Wal-Mart, that's what happens if you aren't rich when you retire.

Sure, you can say you want a Bohemian lifetyle now. But you're going to starve or live in a box at that age if you don't plan ahead.

I did not mean I want a Bohemian lifestyle. However, in the line of work I want to get into, if and when I succeed -  it'll require at least six more years of college - I'm going to be paid less than a lot of the people posting in this thread.
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