Author Topic: US Airways, part I  (Read 2398 times)

Jamisjockey

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US Airways, part I
« on: January 24, 2007, 06:46:38 AM »
On Sunday, Jan 21st, my Mother In Law (Nancy) flew from DCA to TUS, via PHX on AWE flight 40.  The ticket number was xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
Her flight was delayed due to weather.  As a former Air Traffic Controller, I understand this circumstance all too well. What I don't understand is why you emplaned the passengers, only to sit for 5 hours on the tarmac (just before a 5 hour flight!). And then, you "offered" meals to the passengers, but only for them to purchase.  And then, to  add insult to injury, when she arrived in PHX, it was after the last available flight to TUS.  Rather than offer her alternate transportation to TUS, or a hotel, your airline did nothing, forcing her to stay in the airport overnight.  If you had deplaned her in DCA (rather than sitting in the airplane for 5 hours), she could have just overnighted at our residence and tried again on Monday. 
Weather delays are inevitable, but its how an airline handles it passengers during such events that stands out. 
Her travel plans were paid for by me.  My wife and I run a successful home business, and will be traveling around 8 times this year, as well as purchasing tickets for others about 6 times.  We also have access to about 450 teammembers who will need to travel, and look up to us for advice and suggestions. 
Your airline dropped the ball by making her sit on the tarmac for 5 hours at DCA, making things even more insulting by not providing free meals to your captives.  And then, your follow through in PHX was non-existant. 
My future use of your airline and recommendations to about 450 people depends solely on how you make up for this lack of customer service.
==============================
Part II will come when/if I get a response.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Ex-MA Hole

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 06:59:36 AM »
Don't hold your breath-

I sent a letter on complaint to Delta in November of 2005.  I got a form letter that they would respond in a timely manner, that they had an influx of emails to respond to.

Still waiting.  26 months does not = timely in my book.
One day at a time.

Jamisjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 07:28:07 AM »
Don't hold your breath-

I sent a letter on complaint to Delta in November of 2005.  I got a form letter that they would respond in a timely manner, that they had an influx of emails to respond to.

Still waiting.  26 months does not = timely in my book.
Yeah I pretty much intend to wait to, uh, I don't know...the end of the week....if I don't hear back before monday I'm blacklisting them and recommending against using them to anyone I know.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 12:13:09 PM »
Jamis,

As a former ATCer you know what a "ground stop" is.  Maybe, just maybe, the crew and the airline made the best decision with the knowledge they had to board the plane in DCA.  That could be the reason why your MIL sat on the ground for hours.

Now, as far as the PHX end is concerned, US-West-Airways certainly dropped the ball.  They should have offered a hotel or a bus to Tucson.  I'll bet that their carriage contract has an out clause for ATC or WX delays, which is why they didn't offer any extra service.  They aren't required to, so they won't.

Keep bugging them.  Call the reservations center and get connected to customer service.  Ask for a supervisor.  Be firm, but polite; don't blame the person on the other end.  Try to say "the airline" instead of you.  Keep at it; the squeeky wheel gets the oil.

FWIW, I don't work for US-AmWest-Airways.

Good luck.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 02:37:52 PM »
My issue is, at what point into the ground stop do they decide "Maybe we should feed our captives....", or "This *expletive deleted*it ain't clearing up, lets deplane...."
That and the way she was treated at PHX.....
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Vodka7

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 03:07:04 PM »
Gotta say I love Southwest.  Last time I flew with them we were delayed for a bit over an hour, and they gave away three $100 vouchers to people sitting at the gate (not three per person, but one to each of three people who answered a Southwest trivia question) and the steward on the plane gave me free drinks all the way to Florida.  With the big boys, you're lucky if your hour delay even nets you an extra bag of peanuts.

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 01:50:07 AM »
Jamis,

As a former ATCer you know what a "ground stop" is.  Maybe, just maybe, the crew and the airline made the best decision with the knowledge they had to board the plane in DCA.  That could be the reason why your MIL sat on the ground for hours.

Unless I am mistaken, doesn't the airline get credit for an "on time" departure if the plane leaves the gate on time, even if they end up sitting for hours?
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Jamisjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 03:15:17 AM »
Jamis,

As a former ATCer you know what a "ground stop" is.  Maybe, just maybe, the crew and the airline made the best decision with the knowledge they had to board the plane in DCA.  That could be the reason why your MIL sat on the ground for hours.

Unless I am mistaken, doesn't the airline get credit for an "on time" departure if the plane leaves the gate on time, even if they end up sitting for hours?

I think that's how they work the system.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 05:50:59 AM »
Yes, they do, at least as far as the DOT stats are concerned.  Also, and this can be the real issue in many cases, is that the crew, pilots and flight attendants, start getting paid when the plane leaves the gate.  Many captains will release the parking brake as soon as possible to start the pay clock running.

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Thor

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 05:57:34 AM »
What boggles my mind is the fact that many of these airlines will leave the gate just to sit on the runway for hours. I recently heard of an airline that made it's passengers sit in the plane on the runway for some 10 hours!!! If it's over an hour, (depending on the circumstances), I don't understand why they just don't return to the gate. Anything over two hours is just wrong and in my mind, equates to wrongful detention.
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crt360

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 06:53:56 AM »
With all that runway sitting, it's a wonder there aren't more bomb threats.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 06:56:40 AM »
A plane never "sits" on the Runway......the runway is only used for active arrivals and departures.  You might sit on the ramp or taxiway, but sitting a Boeing on the active runway is like parking a Semi in the middle of an active freeway......

I doubt I'll hear from them in a timely fashion, which will result in a US Air/AWE boycott.....
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

wmenorr67

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 07:16:20 AM »
It all depends on where the letter reaches.
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crt360

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 07:16:48 AM »
A plane never "sits" on the Runway......the runway is only used for active arrivals and departures.  You might sit on the ramp or taxiway, but sitting a Boeing on the active runway is like parking a Semi in the middle of an active freeway......

I doubt I'll hear from them in a timely fashion, which will result in a US Air/AWE boycott.....


Thanks for correcting my hasty choice of words.  It's been a long time since I took private pilot aeronautics.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 07:47:18 AM »
A plane never "sits" on the Runway......the runway is only used for active arrivals and departures.  You might sit on the ramp or taxiway, but sitting a Boeing on the active runway is like parking a Semi in the middle of an active freeway......

I doubt I'll hear from them in a timely fashion, which will result in a US Air/AWE boycott.....


Thanks for correcting my hasty choice of words.  It's been a long time since I took private pilot aeronautics.

Its just a misnomer perpetuated by the media, much like "assault rifle", "high capacity clip" and other misintrepretions.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 07:48:00 AM »
As one of those pilots who has left the gate and then sat for a few hours I will tell you my reasoning behind doing that.

Here's the scenario: You are flying from Phoenix to Washington Dulles on APS Airways Flight 1911.  Your scheduled departure time is 9:00am PHX with a schedule arrival time into IAD of 3:00pm; a four hour flight.  

Due to a snow storm in Washington (IAD) your flight is delayed in PHX.  The FAA has issued a EDCT (Expect Departure Clearance Time - basically a time when your flight is allowed to takeoff from PHX) of 11:00am in PHX.  That means that your flight will be allowed to depart PHX from 10:55am to 11:05am.  The FAA allows a five minute window on either side of the EDCT.  If the pilots don't get the plane to the runway to depart during that window, then they have to get back in line.  That's very important.

So, the airline knows that your flight is running two hours late.  APS Airlines has a few options now:

1. Cancel the flight.  That will piss-off just about everyone, but sometimes it is the best option to prevent the domino effect of causing further delays somewhere else.  The airline will reroute you or put you on another flight if possible.
2. Have the customers wait at the gate, off of the plane, until closer to departure time.  That is probably the most comfortable option.  But if the plane is at the gate, then it is not in line for takeoff.  If the pilots miscalculate how long it will take to get to the runway, then they will miss their "wheels-up" time.  The flight will then be put back into the line.  It could be a five minute of five hour mistake.
3.  Load all of the customers onto the plane, leave the gate, and wait for the takeoff time.  Benefits: it puts the plane in line for takeoff.  If the "wheels-up" time is changed to an earlier time, then the plane is in position to leave sooner.  Also, leaving the gate frees-up the gate to be used by other planes.  Just because your flight is late doesn't mean that other flights are late.  Your gate is needed by other planes.  Downsides: You're stuck in that plane for an extra two hours.  You don't have access to all the amenities of the airport.  You're gonna get really mad at APS Airlines for confining you to that tin can; you may actually demand a refund or travel voucher or some other form of compensation. The crew (pilots and flight attendants) have a limited amount of time that they can be on duty; this time sitting in line is eating into the crew's time limits.  You may have to go back to the gate to get more gas.

So, the job and responsibility for the crew and APS Airlines is to find a balance.  They want to get the customers to IAD safely, but they have many legal hurdles to jump first.  

After much gnashing of teeth the decision is made to board the customers, push-off of the gate, and wait in line for takeoff.  At 9:30 your flight leaves the gate and taxis to a waiting area where the captain shuts down the engines to save fuel.  You have been told by the captain and the gate agents that your flight will takeoff at 11:00.  At 10:30 the captain makes an announcement that your takeoff time has been pushed back by the FAA.  Your new time is 11:45.  Now, many things are happening.  Customers are getting mad.  The crew is watching the time to determine if they will be legal to make the flight.  The pilots and the APS Airline dispatchers are watching the weather in IAD.  If the weather gets worse, or gets more widespread, then the flight might need more fuel to make the trip.

At 11:30, 15 minutes before the latest takeoff time, the pilots start the engines and taxi to the runway.  At 11:40 the PHX control tower tells the flight that, once again, their departure time is delayed.  Only 20 minutes from now.  So the pilots elect to leave the engines running to be ready to go.  At 12:00, the latest expected departure time, the pilots are informed that due to a disable aircraft in IAD, their wheels-up time is now 1:00pm.  The captain makes an announcement to the customers telling them the latest bad news.  Several customers are very upset and want off of the plane.  APS Airways dispatch calls the captain to tell him that, based on the newest weather forecast, the flight will need to return to the gate to get more gas.  The captain tells the customers.  Some are happy to get off of the damn plane.  Some are even more angry about the continued delay.

The plane starts heading back to the gate, but a gate is not currently available because it is rush hour at PHX.  The captain is told that there will be a 20 minute wait for a gate.  So, now the time is 12:30.  You have been on the plane for three hours and are still in PHX.  The plane gets to the gate; some people get off the plane, most stay on.  The plane is refueled.  At 12:50, only 10 minutes before the latest takeoff time, the plane leaves the gate headed for the runway.  Hurray, you make the departure time and are airborne at 1:05 PHX time.

Now, you have a four hour flight ahead of you, but at least you're out of PHX and headed home.  The weather continues to be crappy in IAD.  During the flight, Air Traffic Control - ATC (some controller with initials JJ  grin) tells the pilots that they will have to hold for about 30 minutes before they can land in IAD.  There are many other planes in the air headed to IAD and APS Flight 1911 is last in line.  Finally, you land in IAD at 7:45pm.  As you look at the window you notice that the skies are mostly clear, and the runways and taxiways are well plowed, but there are airplanes all over the place.  You've been on the plane for over 8 hours and very happy to be done with the flight.

Remember all those planes that you saw on the ground and all those planes the the captain told you were ahead of you in the holding patterns?  Well, now they are ahead of you on the ground, too.  You're gonna have a long wait for the gate.  The plane's bathrooms were last serviced 8 hours ago; the toilets are full.  All of the water has been drunk, and all of the good snacks are gone.  You can't eat and you can't drink anything because there toilets are full.  Now what?

No matter how wonderful, informative, and caring the pilots and flight attendants have been over the last 9 hours, nothing can make you happy.  Nothing can make-up for your awful flight.

Who is responsible?  Absolutely no one.  The ATC guys did everything they could.  The pilots and FAs did all they could.  APS Airlines did all they could.  But no one can control the weather or the turn-of-events which conspired to ruin your day.

That is really how it happens, folks.  I've had several similar flights.  I spent a wonderful 4 hours on the plane in Syracuse, NY trying to get to JFK.  It's only a 50 minut flight, but we arrived over 5 hours late.  

Sometimes you just can't win.
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RocketMan

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 09:29:30 PM »
Okay, Fly320s, that clears a few things up.  Thanks for the information.
But now explain to me why my wife spent 4.5 hours couped up in a Embraer regional jet after landing at Houston before they would allow it to park at a gate?  Sure, there was freezing rain coming down, but other planes were coming and going from the gates.
She missed her connection to PDX, which took off only 16 minutes late, despite IAH being down a runway.  She got inside the airport at 1230 hours and was privileged to sleep in a hard plastic airport chair all night after a scrumptious dinner of cookies from a vending machine.
Inquiring minds would like to know why that can happen.
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Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 04:54:07 AM »
I don't know, Rocketman.

Could be many reasons, but my top two guesses are:

1.  Her flight was forgotten/lost in the shuffle.
2.  There really were other aircraft ahead of her's in line for the gates.

Other possibilities:

1.  Your wife's flight was pushed, repeatedly, to the back of the line because:
  a.  The plane was scheduled to be done flying for the day/a long time.
  b.  The crew was scheduled to be done flying for the day/a long time.
  c.  The majority of customers on that flight were stopping in IAH or their connections were already fouled up.
2.  The plane was stuck between other aircraft and could not move when a gate became available (done that a few times myself).
3.  No one available to work that flight.
4.  Who Knows?

Just as a FYI, the jetways/gates at airports are not first-come, first-served.  The gates are normally leased to individual airlines, who then control what aircraft get to use the gates.

Your wife was on an Embraer regional jet.  That plane is shorter in height than other aircraft, such as a Boeing 737 or Airbus 320.  So, probably your wife's ERJ could only park at one of the Continental Express gates which are designed to handle the RJs. 

Even if there are 100 other gates availabe, they may belong to other airlines.  Sometimes, but not always, airlines will have agreements with each other to use each other's gates during abnormal situations
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Stickjockey

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2007, 06:04:58 AM »
Rocketman-

as someone who coordinates aircraft parking for a living, this:

Quote
Just as a FYI, the jetways/gates at airports are not first-come, first-served.  The gates are normally leased to individual airlines, who then control what aircraft get to use the gates.

and this:

Quote
Your wife was on an Embraer regional jet.  That plane is shorter in height than other aircraft, such as a Boeing 737 or Airbus 320.  So, probably your wife's ERJ could only park at one of the Continental Express gates which are designed to handle the RJs.

probably had a lot to do with your wife's plight. I don't work in Houston, but I do know we have seventeen parking spots out of at least 60, probably more like 70 spots. Our fleet is a mixed bag of Bombardier CRJ-700's and Dash-8 Q200's and Q400's. Of our assigned spots, two are limited to CRJ's only, one is limited to CRJ's and Dash 8 Q400's, and two are limited to only Dash 8 Q200's.

Fly320s-

What, no deicing? Holdover times can be fun!  rolleyes
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Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2007, 07:06:07 AM »
Bah, deicing is for whimps!  Who needs a clean wing when you can go TOGA power?

Besides, I used PHX-IAD in my example.  Not much deicing equipment in PHX.  grin
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Brad Johnson

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2007, 09:03:35 AM »

TOGA! TOGA! TOGA!

Brad
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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2007, 12:13:55 PM »
Thanks for the information, Fly320s and StickJockey.  You two shed some light on departure delays that previously seemed rather stupid.  Now, at least, we know more about what is behind some of them.
I'm still perplexed at the cause of my wife's situation, however.  Her plane sat just off the gate it was supposed to go into.  There was already a plane there, but it remained dark and did not move.
The pilot asked if stairs could be brought out to the aircraft and the passengers escorted into the terminal.  He was refused.  SWMBO said he was getting a little tired of the situation, himself.
In any event, she said all the passengers got along quite well while they were waiting.  She made a couple of friends that night, so it wasn't a total waste.   smiley
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Fly320s

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2007, 12:25:21 PM »
Rocket,

Normally, no unauthorized people (passengers) are allowed on the ramp away from the gate area.  Security and all that.

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RocketMan

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2007, 01:26:23 PM »
Fly320s, hadn't thought of that.  Makes sense.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Firethorn

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Re: US Airways, part I
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2007, 02:09:45 PM »
Fly320s, hadn't thought of that.  Makes sense.

You think that's bad, try being on a plane that lands unexpectedly on a military runway.

Still, they need to pay more attention to passanger needs.  I've loaded up via stairs on civilian airports frequently enough.  It's not that big of a deal.  Most passangers would understand

'Well people, I'm afraid we've been delayed AGAIN[frustration of pilot] due to weather at our destination, now, normally I'd pull up to a gate-ramp to let all of you off to stretch your legs, but they're all full, so we're going to have stairs down.  It's either that or another hour's wait.  Anybody having difficulty with stairs please contact an attendant for assistance'.