Employee/employer ethics problem

[Monkeyleg]

Like so many of my posts, this one is going to be long, so please be patient.

In February of 2004, I began work on my gunshopfinder.com website. I seriously underestimated the time it would take to make the phone calls to the shops and get them on the site.

At the end of last year, I realized that while the site would be bringing in money, it would not be enough to completely sustain our bills.

About the same time, I heard that the owners of a local photo studio had been talking about trying to get a well-known photographer on board. My name was mentioned.

I approached their lead photographer and had lunch with him, to see if this was true. That led to meeting with the owners, all of whom were excited about the idea.

I proposed that I freelance for them, with them guaranteeing me five days of work a month at $500 a day. They agreed, and I started with them in March. And then business ground to a halt. By June they wanted to renegotiate. They would pay me the $500 for a full day, $350 for a half day, $250 for a day of shooting promotional shots for the studio, and hourly for things like prop shopping, etc. I thought that was fair.

Well, business still hasn't picked up, and I'm hurting. They're really nice people, and they have invested money in me through mailings, ads in industry sourcebooks, etc. But the fact is that I've only had one half-day shoot this entire month.

Meanwhile, the phone-calling for the website has slowed, as the store owners are so busy with hunting seasons that they don't have time to talk.

Fast-forward to today. I was talking with the owner of the company I do website hosting with. We've known each other for about four years, and I have several sites on his servers, including the gunshopfinder.com site.

He knows that I'm very, very good at getting websites ranked high on the search engines. (I almost always get first-page results for the sites I do). When he took a look at the traffic to gunshopfinder.com (which is now at over 250,000 visitors a month, according to one stats program), he was impressed. When he saw that 99% of that traffic was from search engines, he suggested that we talk.

He recently had his search engine optimization (SEO) guy leave, and then found out that the guy hadn't been doing a good job. His company sells SEO services. They charge $800 a year. He said, if I was interested, he would pay me half of that for each customer. He also said his company had many, many SEO customers, and that I could make a very good income. If he has at least 125 to 250 SEO customers, he's right.

OK, if you're still with me, here are my concerns:

1. The studio I'm with has been actively promoting me, but they apparently haven't had much success in promoting me or their other shooter this year. I'm starting to hear that their reputation isn't as good as I thought it was.

2. I still believe that, with time, gunshopfinder.com will be a financial success. If I can find some banner advertisers whose ads don't conflict with the interests of the shops on the site, it could be very successful financially. As the owner of the hosting company put it, with that kind of traffic I should be able to make a lot of money from the site if I hook up with the right advertisers.

3. Judging from what the hosting company's previous SEO guy was doing, I'm certain I could do a much better job.

4. Can I do all three at once? I know I can continue to make phone calls for gunshopfinder.com while doing SEO work at the same time. If, suddenly, work at the studio took off, that would be a problem.

5. Is it ethical for me to take on other work, such as the SEO work, while the studio continues to try to sell my photography work? Should I tell them that I'm doing other work to make ends meet while they try to sell my photo work?

6. Am I nuts?

Lots of questions, I know. Money problems are only getting worse, though, and someone waving dollars in my face certainly makes me pay attention.

If the SEO job were to come through, and there's a very real possibility it could, down the road I might have to just say goodbye to the photo studio. And there would be no looking back. In fact, I would probably not be able to get a photography job in this city again.

Thoughts, anyone?

[roo_ster]

Priority #1: Put food on the table.

All else is details.

OK, to be more specific, I would not be overly worried about the SEO job overtaking the photog job.  Part of the studio's job is to promote YOU.  They are not doing that very effectively, from what I read.  You can not arrange your life on a "might get you work" agreement.  

Fundamentally, you (& I) accept money in return for our services.  If one guy is not willing to pay us for our time, it is time to look elsewhere.

Also, if your web venture takes off, I would not worry too much.  Here in Texas either employer or employee can terminate at will.  There are some generally accepted practices, but no one is indentured.

Good luck with all your ventures.

[Guest]

Just want to agree COMPLETELY with jfruser.  In particular, you can't put your life on hold and starve while waiting around for photo gigs to come in, that's just crazy.

If the photo thing starts to pick up, let them know there's a cap on the amount of time you can spend because you had to start other stuff going while their business was deader'n'doornails.  Try to pick up at least some of their load if they ramp up, to what you're comfy with.

But as all your other business ventures are speculative at this point (although the SEO thing looks good), stay involved in the photo thing until you KNOW there's no more time left for them, and then tell them that when you hit that point regardless of whether it's before their business picks up or after.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

1. The studio I'm with has been actively promoting me, but they apparently haven't had much success in promoting me or their other shooter this year. I'm starting to hear that their reputation isn't as good as I thought it was.

2. I still believe that, with time, gunshopfinder.com will be a financial success. If I can find some banner advertisers whose ads don't conflict with the interests of the shops on the site, it could be very successful financially. As the owner of the hosting company put it, with that kind of traffic I should be able to make a lot of money from the site if I hook up with the right advertisers.

3. Judging from what the hosting company's previous SEO guy was doing, I'm certain I could do a much better job.

4. Can I do all three at once? I know I can continue to make phone calls for gunshopfinder.com while doing SEO work at the same time. If, suddenly, work at the studio took off, that would be a problem.

5a. Is it ethical for me to take on other work, such as the SEO work, while the studio continues to try to sell my photography work?
5b. Should I tell them that I'm doing other work to make ends meet while they try to sell my photo work?

6. Am I nuts?

Lots of questions, I know. Money problems are only getting worse, though, and someone waving dollars in my face certainly makes me pay attention.

If the SEO job were to come through, and there's a very real possibility it could, down the road I might have to just say goodbye to the photo studio. And there would be no looking back. In fact, I would probably not be able to get a photography job in this city again.

Thoughts, anyone?

Hi, Dick!

1. You're probably right.
2. Site success is a 'when', not an 'if'.
3. See #1.
4. Yes. Multiple Streams of Income.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471381802/103-1308913-1835000?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
5a. Is it ethical that they offered you a price, then pulled it out from under you?
5b. Hell no.
6. Probably. But it's why we keep you around, for kicks & grins.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, you ask about the SEO job coming through, and dropping the photography...
Isn't that the plan, after all, once the website etc. take off?
Photog seems to me something you could always pick back up, like my PC repair, on the side, as needed.

Life's good, your lady loves you, your friends are glad when you're here.
Take it one step at a time, and enjoy whatever success comes your way.

(if ONLY I was as good at taking advice as I am at giving it!)
Regards, my friend.
Fig

[onions!]

Freelance photography,gunshopfinder,& the search engine gig.They don't sound conflicting to me.

I'd say go for it w/one question?IIRC,you're in your mid-fifties right?How much & how long do you WANT to work?
Is your nest egg big enough or will gunshopfinder guarantee that you'll be quite comfy in a few years if & when  you want to retire?It's obviously none of my business but the question I'd be asking myself is what do I have to do to get where I want to be in 5-10 years.

[Standing Wolf]

Can I do all three at once?
Is it ethical for me to take on other work, such as the SEO work, while the studio continues to try to sell my photography work?

Yes and yes.

Taking on multiple jobs is easier when you're young, of course, but lots of people do it all their lives. If Smith is happy with your work, there's no reason not to make Jones happy, too. I don't see that your work for Jones is any of Smith's business, unless, of course, you've got some sort of exclusive contract.

[grampster]

Dick,

Life is all about opportunity.  The trick is recognizing it and then grasping onto it.  You have two hands, two feet and a set of teeth (hopefully)  That means you should be able to grasp onto 5 opportunities.  

I see nothing involving ethics in your missive as long as you are providing what you are being paid for.  At some point in the future, you may have to make a decision.  Don't put the cart before the horse.

Good luck friend.  Being busy is a blessing.

Dick

[Monkeyleg]

jfruser, JimMarch, Standing Wolf, you've all pretty much reaffirmed my own thoughts.

Grampster, I only have 31 teeth. When money permits, I'll have the bridge put in.

Felonious Fig, I always appreciate your support of my site. If all continues to go well, in a few years it will be almost self-sustaining: those shops that recognize the value it provides will almost automatically renew. And I have many more ideas for ways to increase revenue to the site beyond the gun stores' subscriptions.

41mag, the nest egg I built up until the 1990's is gone. Not because I put it into risky stocks, but because of other problems. I wish more people would understand the risk side of the risk/reward balance of being self-employed. If they did, they wouldn't be so quick to accuse those who are successful of being greedy.

If my financial plan from 12 years ago had gone without a hiccup, I'd be retiring in less than a month. Instead, I have to go with the assumption that I can never retire.

That's why the idea of gunshopfinder.com was so appealing: if it works out (and it is working out, albeit more slowly than I anticipated) then it's a job that I can continue to do for years and years.

Photography is not. I don't know any advertising photographer over 50 who doesn't have back problems, knee problems, etc. I know it doesn't sound like a very physical job, but it is. There's no way that I could do photography when I'm sixty years old.

SEO work is likewise brains rather than brawn. Google, Yahoo, MSN and the others are constanty changing their algorithms, in large part to separate the spam sites from the real-content sites. If they're successful, it will be the real content sites that survive.

And, to veer a bit off-topic, that's something that always puzzles me. I see sites (there was a gun-related site that used all sorts of tricks to lure in visitors) that break the rules. But it's adhering to the basic rules that gets a site ranked highly. Granted, it takes time and effort, but it isn't a big mystery.

I guess it still boils down to some folks trying to get rich quick, versus those who actually get rich slowly.

[Waitone]

While this time of year sucks for getting people on the phone and listening to a pitch, it is the perfect time to dig out leads.  Spend December making a list of lead (get someone to get you a SHOT Show guide) and hit 'em hard first week in January.  A porky December may induce some to sign on in January.

Just keep dialin' for dollars.

[grampster]

Actually, I have found December a very good month for selling.  Most sales folk are in a deep depression because they know they have to start over at 0 again next month and are not trying leaving a wide open field.  But, most prospects are in a good mood because of the holidays.  I have produced more business in December than any other month than July.  (Don't ask about July, I haven't a clue why it's good.)

As for Photography, I have a neighbor, actually two of them, who both got into taking family portraits and doing school pictures by offering better deals than the big commercial companies.  Word of mouth keeps both of them pretty busy and profitable, especially if you have somewhere to do good outside portrait photography.

[Brad Johnson]

Monkeyleg, check your website contact mail.

Brad

[Strings]

1. If they're not able to keep their half of the bargain, why should you keep yours?

2. Lots of "if"s" there, bro. I'd keep goin' with it, but don't rely on it...

3. Probably: most people try to collect their paychecks with the least amount of effort.

4. Yes... I don't see any kind of conflict, except maybe time. When a time conflict starts to happen, go where the moeny is

5a. Yes, it IS ethical. It's called (IIRC) "moonlighting"

5b. So long as the other work isn't for a competitor, why should you? None of their business...

6. Yes. DUH!

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks again for the replies.

Hunter Rose, while I recognize that business is business, I'm also one of those strange people who agree to deals made on a handshake. Maybe that's why I'm always shocked that someone would cross me on a deal.

Right now I'm just crunching numbers to try to figure out if I can make a real living from what's been offered by the owner of the hosting company.

My biggest concern is that, based upon an $800 fee per client, I can't get them to page one on the search engines. Using a $50 per hour fee, that's only sixteen hours per year. Even with a 50/50 split with the owner, that's just 32 hours per client per year.

I've spent more than 32 hours a month just working on one website to get it on page one.

I guess I'll find out more on Monday. Meantime, thanks to everyone who's chimed in.

[Antibubba]

Two points:

1.  Half of "freelance" is "free".  If they were paying you regularly and providing work it would be one thing.  But they aren't, are they?

2.  The SEO work is much closer to the goals you're trying to achieve with gunbroker.com.  It's mutually advantageous, and you might reach a point where running your site takes up so much of your effort that you'll need to hire a SEO firm to work for you!  :-)