Author Topic: Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps  (Read 13710 times)

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,403
  • I Am Inimical
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2005, 05:53:17 PM »
"Ok, I'm lost..can the HP be backed up with another source of heat?"

Yes.

There are propane and natural gas options for the emergency/supplemental heat, possibly oil, as well.

I'm not a big fan.

Why?

Because if you have a fossile fuel supplemental heat, you've got TWO heating systems, and the secondary heating system requires all of the attributes of a fossile fuel system -- chimney, fuel source, etc., with all of the ancillary cost.

If you're going to go for the electric heat pump, I figure just go all of the way. Yes, the electric resistance will cost more to run than a fossile fuel backup, but I SERIOUSLY question whether you'll ever recoup the cost of the fossile fuel system.

If, however, you wanted to go that way, your best bet would probably be a separate gas water heater with a dedicated coil in the plenum and a small circulator pump. An on-demand style heater might actually be best, but it will also be expensive.

All in all, I think it's far better to stick with the electric supplemental heat in the unit and then go to something like wood (if you have it), a pellet or corn stove, etc.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

cfabe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 513
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2005, 06:01:03 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"Advantage with hot water is that it's easy for  a layman with a little plumbing experience to install."

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

Yes, relatively easy to install, but the big question is, who is going to do your design? That's the kicker part.
Don't worry mike, I'm years out from building and the heating system design is just one of the things I'll need to figure out. As I get closer I'll be doing a ton more research. What I meant was that once I have a design figured out, I know I can do a hot water system with my plumbing skills, where I'd have a harder time doing a forced air duct system, and doing a good job of it.

Guest

  • Guest
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2005, 06:36:26 PM »
On the subject of mixing DHW and Hydronic fluids...

When my system was initially designed (by the HVAC company doing the Geothermal, Radiant heat and ducted air),  they were going to configured it with the GSHP heating up water in a storage tank, and that tank being used to deliver DHW and Radaint heat with a tempering valve.

The GSHP was configured to generate Potable water.

So in this configuration, the Hydroninc and DHW were directly mixed in the Storage tank.

However, at that time, I was considering feeding the slab with water directly from the ground loop, which contained anti-freeze (to experiment with passive radiant cooling), so I asked the installers to put a heat exchanger between the hot water storage tank and the hydronic loop to keep them isolated.  This is how the system was first installed.

Some of my original web pages may still refer to this configuration.  The two fluids (DHW and Hydronic) were totally sepparate.  

HOWEVER...

After a year of running the system, and many "active" discussions on my forum, it was decided that this was a very inefficient configuration.  A better one would be to directly connect the GSHP to the hydronic loop to get maximum efficiency from the GSHP when generating hot water for the radiant heat.

In this new configuration the GSHP would switch between heating up the DHW OR heating/cooling the radiant slab.  So, in this new configuration, the DHW and Hydronic would be physically linked, and there could be occasional bleeding of Hydronic fluid into the same tank that stored DHW (when the system switches between DHW and Radaint Heat).

Since this was doing less mixing of fluids than the original planned configuration, I assumed it would be OK/Safe.  Any hydronic fluid that bled through would be heated back up to 120-130 F, which is high enough to kill any nastie bugs.  Plus I provided a way to periodically flush the radiant loops.

This is how the system is currently running.  

Note: The domestic cold water supply is not exposed to the radiant loops.

So naturally, I am suprized by the comment that this configuration is forbidden by the "National Plumber's code".  

Can anyone give me a reference for the appropriate section of the code so I read the specifics.  A web link would be great.  

Phil.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,403
  • I Am Inimical
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2005, 07:41:17 PM »
"Any hydronic fluid that bled through would be heated back up to 120-130 F, which is high enough to kill any nastie bugs."

No, no it's not.

Legionella and other water-born pathogens can survive and remain viable at temperatures well above above that. Britain recommends that boiler water for potable systems be kept above 140 deg. F (http://www.allerdale.gov.uk/downloads/page139/legion.factsheet.pdf)

CDC notes that Legionella has been isolated from water in the 145 deg. F range, as well. (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no3/02-0707.htm)

Granted, water treatment processes will go a long way towards (hopefully) preventing any sort of pathogen in the water, but I'd still be VERY hesitatant of a system that mixed heating water and potable water due to the possibility for stagnation of the heating water allowing free chlorine to bleed off.

I'm looking for the citation that I found regarding the National Plumbing Code and hydronic heating systems. It's been awhile. I don't have a copy of the National Plumbing Code, and I've not found one on-line, either.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2005, 01:17:13 AM »
First off let's understand "supplemental heat" vs "emergency heat". Supplemental heat and emergency heat use the same backup heat. It is refered to as "supplemental" when the HP automatically turns it on because ODT has gone down below a temp at which the ASHP can NOT keep up anymore. It becomes "emergency heat" when you switch it to that position on the t'stat MANUALLY. This is in case the HP fails, it's supposed to make it so you still have heat even if the HP fails. While  switching to emergency heat on most T'stats WOULD cause an indicator light to come on, however, in fact, very few had / have an indicator light to show that supplemental heat was running. The T'stst may have a light for this purpose but if the HP control circuit had no way to feed this light a signal (some don't) it naturally won't light up. Although SOME DID, NOT ALL. Some of the more sophisticated systems DO have a circuit that monitors HP performance and will shut it down if it "sees" a problem and switch to Emergency automatically. At the same time they will light a fault light on the T'Stat. Your average mid priced Joe Blow HP will not have this

It's QUITE possible for a malfunctioning HP to use electric heat all winter without the knowledge of the homeowner. Seen it, many times. The usual call is "Gee, my electric bill is sky high, can you check if my HP is running properly?" DING DING DING!! "Sounds like it's running electric heat instead of HP!" Ka-CHING!$! Smiley

What I said in terms of frost and defrost is that if the ODT is high enough the HP may still frost but will melt the frost off during the "off" cycle not needing a defrost. MY opinion is that you should shut the thing off at just ABOVE the ODT at which this ceases to occur and switch to conventional heat. Let me rephrase that, high efficiency conventional heat. You want to eliminate defrost cycles which is where the ASHP loses it's efficiency. This becomes less of an issue as you get farther south. It would be alsmost inane to couple a HP to fossil in FLA for example but up here in the great white north it becomes a more viable option.  None of this is necessary with GTHPs, which is why they are so much more efficient. However the ASHP / fossil system may be cheaper on install than the GTHP. Keep thinking like 3 wells or 3 trenches something like 4' x 8' x 75' each and the associated loop hardware. Then, as I've stated earlier an extra trench or well wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

If you are installing A/C anyways there is only a small added expense to put in a HP condenser vs an A/C only. So if your main system was going to be oil fired forced air with A/C, for example, the extra cash outlay to install a HP instead of an A/C condenser is minimal. A few hundred $. Yes it is even LESS expensive to install a HP with electric backup but operation costs are quite high (especially up north here) compared to a mix of HP and fossil fuel systems.

We are talking about trying to squeeze every bit of heat out of our fuel $. HPs with electric backup and gas water heaters to warm our airstream are not the way we do this. Cheaper to install yes, but if one is truly planning on staying in the same house for the next 30 years any added expense by putting in a better system WILL be recouped well before 30 years is up. Is there any way to tell exactly when this happens. Not that I know of. "Rule of Thumb" says 7 to 10 years.

PS, I think arguing the details of operation on these systems is not necessarily what Barbara is looking for.

Phil!! If you are mixing slab water with DHW THAT IS BAD!! I know of no code personally but I DO know most local officials will not let you do it if they are the least bit informed. And in this world, the local official is the final say on everything. Really the only problem is when the water stagnates in the slab circuit over a period of non use, it builds up bacteria that can be discharged to the DHW system upon first start up the following heating season. The cheapest way around this is to add a timer that once a day circulates the water in the slab for a few minutes during the off season to prevent stagnation.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

cfabe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 513
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2005, 03:59:40 AM »
To revisist Barbara's original question: "Anyone have any experience with these heat pumps? They sound great..about twice as expensive to start with, but if the savings are up to 40% per year, that should be recovered  quickly enough. One of my biggest questions is how effective they'd be in a cold Mid-western winter."

Thread Summary:

An air-source heat pump will not work well in a cold climate, and will need supplemental heat of some sort (fossil or resistance electric). A ground source (geo-thermal) heat pump will work well in sub-freezing temperatures, but is more expensive to install. If you plan on staying in a home for many years, it will probably be a good investment. A GTHP system will me considerably more expensive than a 'normal' heating system, perhaps twice or more as expensive.

A GTHP is the most efficient method of heating we have, other than solar. Passive solar feautres will help but you'll still need the heateing system. However as with any heating system, it needs to be properly designed and installed by someone who knows what they're doing. A poorly done GTHP system may be no better or worse than the cheaper alternatives. GTHP systems are rare compared to "conventional" heating, so you may have a hard time finding a good installer in your area, espicially if you are in a remote area.

Some people dislike heat pumps with air-delivery because the air feels cooler than fossil-fueled furnaces, though it does heat the house. Hot water delivery of the heat is an option, but this eliminates the possibility of using the heat pump to do air conditioning as well, since this requires air-delivery because of the condensation. You can have a hybrid system with both, but it will be more expensive and complicated.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,403
  • I Am Inimical
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2005, 08:08:08 AM »
"however, in fact, very few had / have an indicator light to show that supplemental heat was running."

As far as I know, every Honeywell thermostat that is designed for use with a heat pump has those attributes. My rather basic 1979 model from Honeywell had that feature, and my rather advanced programmable Honeywell on the new system has that feature.

As far as I can determine, all major manufacturers of heat pump thermostats use both indicator lights, and have for years. I'd be interested in hearing if you know of any made today that don't.

Every heat pump system made today (again, as far as I know), also has the control circuits necessary to run both lights, and have had for years.

Yes, it's possible that a series of failures could push the heating system over onto strictly electrical heat, and a less than observant homeowner might go weeks, or months, without noticing. But I have to think that if they're that much of a brain dead dullard, they'll also have problems figuring out when their gas or oil systems aren't running optimally and are wasting large amounts of money, as well. You can only design in so much "stupid" factor for people. After that, they are on their own.

"What I said in terms of frost and defrost is that if the ODT is high enough the HP may still frost but will melt the frost off during the "off" cycle not needing a defrost."

Gotcha. Yes. That's often the case unless for some reason the cooling load is unusually high.

Personally, I think in the North, anything much above the Pennsylvania Maryland border, no one should be installing heat pumps in the first place unless, as you note, they're ground source.

Interesting aside...

I was talking about this thread to my Father (a civil engineer in Pennsylvania) and he mentioned that my Grandfather installed some of the first ground source heat pumps to be used in Pennsylvania, in the early 1950s. Grandpa was a mechanical engineer, in charge of the boilers and mechanical maintenance at the American Viscose Plant in Lewistown, PA. They used the Juniata River as the ground source.


As a further aside, Mom and Dad live in the house that Grandma and Grandpa bought in 1943. They bought it from the estate. The boiler is a Burnham Jubilee that Dad and Grandpa installed in 1956 to replace the coal-fired gravity hot water system that was in the house originally.

Dad and I were talking about putting a new boiler in (50 years is a good life for a boiler), but now that his health is getting worse, it will probably be contracted out.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2005, 08:10:30 AM »
NICE!!

Quote
A GTHP system will me considerably more expensive than a 'normal' heating system, perhaps twice or more as expensive
YES!

Quote
so you may have a hard time finding a good installer in your area, espicially if you are in a remote area.
YES! Finding a GOOD installer as well as a GOOD repairer! Very important!
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Guest

  • Guest
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2005, 01:26:05 PM »
Quote from: 280plus
Really the only problem is when the water stagnates in the slab circuit over a period of non use, it builds up bacteria that can be discharged to the DHW system upon first start up the following heating season. The cheapest way around this is to add a timer that once a day circulates the water in the slab for a few minutes during the off season to prevent stagnation.
Just for reference, I did a good year of research while designing my current home.  I find it strange that I saw MANY examples (in various literature and online) showing a radiant slab being heated from the DHW tank.  I find it strange that this is only the second time I've heard anything negative about this approach.

But... I do want to understand (that's why I do research).

What is the actual problem with stagnation?  What is the critical factor for causing problems.

Is it really just that the Water doesn't move?...  how does moving the water fix the problem?  
Can the microbes really tell?    Water could sit in city supply lines for quite a while, or move extremely slowly in some conditions... How is that different?

It would be extremely easy for me to cycle my loop circulators for a few minute every hour (or some other duty cycle). It's just just a quick software mod, but I can't figure out how that could really help.  Is it really that easy?  Wouldn't I need to do something else as well?  Like mix in fresh water, purge the old water, or something?

Point me to a good reference.

Phil.
www.OurCoolHouse.com

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,403
  • I Am Inimical
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2005, 01:42:50 PM »
Phil,

The important difference is, did you see slab systems heated with a domestic water heater that were ALSO heating the same water for household use and MIXING that water?

I would bet a resounding NO.

The problem with stagnation is that chlorine AND oxygen levels in the water, your first and best defenses against many very nasty critters, very quickly deplete after sitting.

Any bacteria that haven't been killed by the system then have a wonderful avenue in which to breed to toxic levels.

Moving the water replentishes the chlorine and oxygen levels in the loop, which helps keep any bacteria that are present, at bay.

The cheapest way around this is to do what 280 says.

The SAFEST way to deal with this is to completely isolate your heating and potable water systems.

If you want more information on this, contact you local water supplier, the ag extension office at a local university, etc.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Guest

  • Guest
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2005, 01:44:03 PM »
Quote from: cfabe
To revisist Barbara's original question: "Anyone have any experience with these heat pumps? They sound great..about twice as expensive to start with, but if the savings are up to 40% per year, that should be recovered  quickly enough. One of my biggest questions is how effective they'd be in a cold Mid-western winter."
I don't know exactly what a "Mid western winter" is (mild, cold or really cold), but I live in the mountains of Western Maryland, and it gets plenty cold here.  In just the last two winters we've had one weekend where we got 52" of snow, and I've several 0 F degree days.  Brrrr.

In my book that's pretty cold... but I don't know about you guys.

My GSHP (Ground Source Heat Pump) has faired very well in this climate.  I use a combination of Radiant heat  and ducted air.  Both are geothermal.  I also get all my DHW from the GSHP.

GSHP's are most effective in extreme climates where the energy you save is significant.  My potable water unit only gets 300% efficiency, but units designed exclusivley for space heating can get up to 400+%  (yes a HEATING system with a COP of 4.1)  

Makes a high efficiency gas heater look pretty sad with a COP of less than 1)

The other benefit of a GSHP is that it's kind on the environment.  Over a summer/winter cycle you may actually put back all the heat you extracted from the earth...  The net environmental heating is much smaller.  That's a good thing.  And since they are electric, there's the option to use a green energy supplier.

Just say NO to fossil fuels (it will keep the price of gas down over the winter:).

Phil Malone
www.OurCoolHouse.com

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2005, 04:27:59 PM »
Phil, I've attended several different seminars on the subject of radiant heat over the years and the subject always comes up of using a DHW heater for slab heat. It is a good choice becasue the heater is designed to handle low temp water without suffering ill effects to the heater. A boiler requires at least 140* return water temp so trying to run a 100* loop off of it requires mixing valves etc. A DHW heater does not care that the water returning to iot is only 90*, it is designed to handle this. At the same time it was always stressed that your DHW and slab water shuold NOT be hooked to the same tank. Although you may be using the slab to cool, most do not, so if the heat to the slab is off all summer that water sits in there for months and just like a stagnant pool of water it starts to develop bacteria. Upon first use of the slab heat next season all that now toxic water is sent back to the tank and your whole system will now also be contaminated with elevated levels of bacteria. Again, it is up to the local official as to whether this will be allowed to fly. Mike is 100% right when he says the SAFEST method is to have them physically separated.

Moving the water regularly flushes it out of the system before it has time to foster bacteria growth.

When slab heat first redeveloped many people were using the DHW heater to share both duties of heat and make DHW. It was later determined that this wasn't such a good idea. That may be a cause of some of the confusion.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

DustinD

  • I have a title
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 919
  • I have a personal text message
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2005, 12:59:13 AM »
www.monolithic.com has a forum and an archive that has many discussions and examples of Ground loops, passive and active solar, radiant floors and other things. They have lots of good advice and examples of earth bermed homes in their forum. Many experts and architects for unique energy efficient homes hang out there.

www.otherpower.com has lots of info about DIY solar panels, windmills, solar heating, and other DIY stuff.

www.backwoodshome.com Libertarian bent self sufficiency magazine.

www.motherearthnews.com You may not like their politics but they have a huge archive with occasionally some useful information.

www.homepower.com their past issue archive is great if you are into alternate power.

www.earthshelter.com earth bermed homes, they seem a bit pricey.

www.multiaqua.com uses cold water to cool homes without ductwork. It can also be used to heat homes. I personally like that duct free homes have less problem with dust in them.

I have lots more links if you are interested.

Personally I would go with solar hot water panels. www.otherpower.com and www.homepower.com have some great advice and examples of DIY systems that are very cheap.

Windmills are much more cost effective than solar panels for electricity production (especially if you build them yourself). I plan on building some and selling all of the excess power that the law allows once I get some land of my own.

If you earth berm your house you may not need air conditioning in Michigan. The earth will always be cooler than you want your home. Properly positioned and angled awnings can let sun light inside in the winter, but keep it out in the summer. You will also need a bit more insulation in earth bermed homes between the walls and the ground to ward off mold and to keep them from feeling like a basement or cave, but it is easily doable.
"I don't always shoot defenceless women in the face, but when I do, I prefer H-S Precision.

Stay bloodthirsty, my friends."

                       - Lon Horiuchi

Guest

  • Guest
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2005, 03:29:42 AM »
Dang, I just spent an hour looking at those links.

This makes me feel stupid, though. I think I'm in over my head.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2005, 12:46:13 PM »
be careful, we don't want to be feeling responsible for exploding your brain...

shocked

oops, I mean go back and read the thread, especially the synopsis, that was a pretty good run down. Don't feel overwhelmed by looking at it as a whole. Look at it it terms of systems and research each separately.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Guest

  • Guest
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2005, 01:29:46 PM »
Heheh..ok, I deserved that. Cheesy

I found this..depending on what my oldest is doing next week (he leaves for the Navy in two weeks and I'm trying to spend all the time I can with him) I'd like to attend. If I can't catch this one, I'll definitely try to hit the next one they have.

Maybe they can explain this all to me with sock puppets and stick figures. Smiley

http://www.glrea.org/education/RenewableEnergySeminar_092405.html

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2005, 12:42:48 AM »
yup, definitely a step in the right direction. Make sure youask them plenty of GTHP questions too!

Give your son my best wishes, the 18th was the 30th anniversary of MY joining the USN. Of course my more favorite day is the 17th, which was my 25th anniversary of GETTING OUT of the USN. Wink
Avoid cliches like the plague!