Post by: wmenorr67 on June 20, 2008, 07:18:32 AM
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LAKEVILLE, Minn. A Lakeville man says he feels violated after two police officers woke him up at 3 a.m. to tell him his door was unlocked.
Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors.
But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.
A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
He says the kids inside _ Molde's two sons and two nephews _ were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.
Their surprise visit was part of a public service campaign to remind residents to secure their homes to prevent thefts. Usually, officers just leave notices on doors.
But they went further in Troy Molde's case on Thursday. Police entered the house where four children under 7 were having a sleepover, and then went upstairs to Molde's bedroom.
The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.
A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.
He says the kids inside _ Molde's two sons and two nephews _ were afraid to wake their dad, so the officers went upstairs.
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Jun20/0,4670,ODDRudeAwakeningMinnesota,00.html
Justified if he blew them away?
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 20, 2008, 07:20:18 AM
HE WAS KNOCKING AT 3 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 20, 2008, 07:21:44 AM
If I heard my door open in the middle of the night, the first warning anyone coming in would get would be a glare of over a hundred lumens, then a likely muzzleflash if I didn't recognize them.
What stupidity is this?
Post by: MechAg94 on June 20, 2008, 07:23:08 AM
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2008, 07:23:46 AM
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 20, 2008, 07:25:39 AM
I can hear someone at my door prety well even at 3am. Unless I've been in the sauce.
Either way, its a risky proposition to just walk in my front door at 3am. Most folks should know better.
Justified entry my ass. Without proof that a crime is being comitted, how can they justify it? Suspicion of a crime being committed is an awful broad brushstroke.
Post by: ilbob on June 20, 2008, 07:34:01 AM
without further info I am inclined to side with the cops on this one.
I didn't like the part about the kids being afraid to wake their dad. Just did not sound right to me.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 20, 2008, 07:36:51 AM
A warrant is for searches.
They searched his garage and found his keys in the ignition. I guess they heard or smelled something that made the suspicious right?
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2008, 07:42:00 AM
Looking in the windows of a car is plain sight. Had they opened the doors and opened the glove box, that would be a search as contents of the glove box are not in plain sight.
While I personally would be rather pleased that the police are noticing things out of the ordinary, such as my garage door being open at 3 a.m., I think they should have called into dispatch and gotten the phone number for the home and called, not gone upstairs.
Post by: alex_trebek on June 20, 2008, 08:26:42 AM
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If I heard my door open in the middle of the night, the first warning anyone coming in would get would be a glare of over a hundred lumens, then a likely muzzleflash if I didn't recognize them.
What stupidity is this?
What stupidity is this?
Yes it is very stupid, also very stupid to leave keys in the truck, garage door open, and the front door open, especially with kids in the house.
I thought warrants only applied to searches, as well as entering a secured residence. In other words, it is my impression that police can enter private property if it is unlocked/or open.
Post by: Mabs2 on June 20, 2008, 08:34:07 AM
I didn't like the part about the kids being afraid to wake their dad. Just did not sound right to me.
Yea, what's up with that? My aunt's kid (about 2 or 3) knocks on my door at 3AM for whatever reason I get up and we goof off.
wtf. Maybe the kids are just 'at that age'.
Post by: Gowen on June 20, 2008, 08:47:08 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on June 20, 2008, 08:48:55 AM
Yes it is very stupid, also very stupid to leave keys in the truck, garage door open, and the front door open, especially with kids in the house.
I thought warrants only applied to searches, as well as entering a secured residence. In other words, it is my impression that police can enter private property if it is unlocked/or open.
An unlocked door does not give police the right to enter your home uninvited. They may enter "public" portions of your property, such as driveways, sidewalks, and porches. They can peek through windows, open doors, and so forth. But actually entering the home without a warrant or consent is illegal (except in an emergency).I thought warrants only applied to searches, as well as entering a secured residence. In other words, it is my impression that police can enter private property if it is unlocked/or open.
Legal or not, entering a stranger's home uninvited at 3:00am no less is a darned good way to get yourself ventilated. It's very fortunate that the incompetence of these cops didn't cost anyone their life.
Post by: alex_trebek on June 20, 2008, 08:52:43 AM
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Legal or not, entering a stranger's home uninvited at 3:00am no less is a darned good way to get yourself ventilated. It's very fortunate that the incompetence of these cops didn't cost anyone their life.
Yep. Darwin will probably take care of both idiots someday.....
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2008, 08:56:32 AM
Wide open garage door and unlatched front door.
Chances are those are two highly unusual conditions in this individual's neighborhood. That raises the level of alert for police. And yes, courts have found that police have greater leeway in entering properties when they observe unusual conditions such as these.
I can only imagine the howling that would be happening on this board had the police simply logged the fact that the garage door was open and the front door ajar and gone on their merry way, only to later learn that the homeowner was being murdered and his wife raped and murdered.
As I said, I really can't fault the police's actions until the point where they went upstairs and woke the guy up. Once they determined that no overt crime was being committed they should have gotten dispatch to phone the house.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on June 20, 2008, 09:08:58 AM
It even sounds like the police officers encountered some children immediately after entering the house, who no doubt told the officers that nothing was wrong. You might be able to stretch and claim the initial entry was justified, but you clearly cannot justify the officers walking upstairs, into the man's bedroom, to wake him up, after being told by the residents that nothing was amiss.
Hang these police ossifers out to dry.
Post by: mfree on June 20, 2008, 09:19:26 AM
You wouldn't catch me rapping on a guy's bedroom door though, I'd be rather loud entering the front...
Post by: alex_trebek on June 20, 2008, 09:21:24 AM
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Hang these police ossifers out to dry.
I don't know if I would go that far.... There are certainly far better examples of police abusing their powers, and/or unjustified intrusion of individual liberties. If we start assuming everything they do is an intrusion, essentially calling wolf, then we are only hurting ourselves.
I certainly don't agree with the officer's choices beyond the initial investigation, without further information I will give the benefit of the doubt and say their hearts were probably in the right place. Being a police officer has to be a tough job, and they probably just didn't want to be called back to this house to find it full of dead children imo. Without further info, it is hard to say either way.
Post by: agricola on June 20, 2008, 09:21:57 AM
As for the kids in the house, other reports state this was a seven year old and three five year olds. I dont know what the law is like in the US, but you would have hoped the officers would have assured themselves that there was an adult supervising those kids, and given that the kids apparently said they wouldnt go and wake their dad what else were they meant to do?
http://origin.twincities.com/life/ci_9641991
Edit... and of course this may just be my suspicious mind, but given that (on the UK version at least) the first hit on a Google search for "Troy Molde" is an account on Findlaw of how he has been taken to the cleaners in a divorce settlement, perhaps hoping-to-get-money is more of an issue here than this chap feeling his privacy was violated.
Post by: SteveS on June 20, 2008, 09:25:14 AM
A door that's standing wide open in the dead of night is a completely different matter.
Wide open garage door and unlatched front door.
Chances are those are two highly unusual conditions in this individual's neighborhood. That raises the level of alert for police. And yes, courts have found that police have greater leeway in entering properties when they observe unusual conditions such as these.
I can only imagine the howling that would be happening on this board had the police simply logged the fact that the garage door was open and the front door ajar and gone on their merry way, only to later learn that the homeowner was being murdered and his wife raped and murdered.
As I said, I really can't fault the police's actions until the point where they went upstairs and woke the guy up. Once they determined that no overt crime was being committed they should have gotten dispatch to phone the house.
Wide open garage door and unlatched front door.
Chances are those are two highly unusual conditions in this individual's neighborhood. That raises the level of alert for police. And yes, courts have found that police have greater leeway in entering properties when they observe unusual conditions such as these.
I can only imagine the howling that would be happening on this board had the police simply logged the fact that the garage door was open and the front door ajar and gone on their merry way, only to later learn that the homeowner was being murdered and his wife raped and murdered.
As I said, I really can't fault the police's actions until the point where they went upstairs and woke the guy up. Once they determined that no overt crime was being committed they should have gotten dispatch to phone the house.
This is correct. Besides, what are you going to sue the police for under these circumstances? Tresspassing? Good luck with that. I am not saying that entering unlocked homes uninvited is a good policy, but lets be realistic.
Post by: Hawkmoon on June 20, 2008, 11:23:23 AM
A warrant is for searches.
Absent explicit permission or a valid complaint, entry into a private residence by an police officer is trespass, just as it would be if I walked into your house at 03:00 and shook you awake.
The police were out of line. Well-intended, but out of line.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 20, 2008, 12:09:15 PM
Post by: Balog on June 20, 2008, 12:11:35 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 20, 2008, 12:34:09 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 21, 2008, 05:09:45 AM
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"Troy Molde" is an account on Findlaw of how he has been taken to the cleaners in a divorce settlement, perhaps hoping-to-get-money is more of an issue here than this chap feeling his privacy was violated.
What Mr. Molde Feels is entirely irrelevant for the purposes of this. If his privacy was violated, and the court rules appropriately, then Mr. Molde deserves to get money from this, and the police officers in question, and their agency, deserve to get sued, and maybe they'll learn that way.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 21, 2008, 11:59:36 AM
Post by: Stand_watie on June 21, 2008, 12:16:21 PM
I've often noticed people in perceived low crime places seem to walk around in condition white a lot more. In this case the police as well as the homeowner.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 21, 2008, 12:55:56 PM
Post by: vaskidmark on June 21, 2008, 02:51:06 PM
OTOH, it might have been good manners and good officer safety to loudly announce themselves as they entered, so that the sleeping adult might awaken to inquire why the cops are in his living room yelling "East Bumf*** PD". I'm not really sure about going upstairs to wake up dad unless he is not responding to the "East Bumf*** PD" calls after say 2 or 3 minutes. YMMV on timing.
And about the kids being up at 3AM - it happens. They might even have been responsible for the front door being ajar. And if they are typical kids in a sleep-over situation, I'll bet they have already been told twenty-eleven times to be quiet and go to sleep. No wonder they said they were afraid to wake up dad.
Bottom line - checking out the suspicious nature of the scene is good, but going upstairs to wake up dad may need more info before I'll grant a pass on that move.
stay safe.
skidmark
Post by: gator on June 21, 2008, 04:22:15 PM
Hopefully dad gave those kids a good hiding!
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 21, 2008, 04:23:50 PM
Post by: Grandpa Shooter on June 21, 2008, 04:42:10 PM
Post by: Pyle on June 21, 2008, 04:52:19 PM
Think about it this way: If you see a stranger in your house at 3:00 am - what are you naturally going to do? I'm going for my gun! Not to mention that I'm probably going to be a little "fuzzy" at that time of the morning. Now, you've got a loaded gun in your hand and a cop who might feel the need to draw his own weapon.......I don't like anything about this..
The more I think about it - the more I can't believe it happened.....
Post by: Tallpine on June 21, 2008, 05:11:43 PM
Post by: K Frame on June 21, 2008, 06:21:02 PM
Jesus Christ...
The answer is yes.
Police now have the permission of the Courts to enter your home at any time of the day or night, spank your children, kick your dog, drink your beer, eat your honey ham, and make films of you and your Mrs. making whoopie so they can sell it on the internet.
Oh, they can also slap you around, empty your wallet, and take an upper decker in your hall bathroom and you are required, BY LAW, to scream at the top of your lungs "THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME YOUR BITCH SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!" while drizzling chocolate sauce over your head and hanging marischino cherries off your nipples.
Oh, and while they're on the way out your door, they can also cut nasty greasy chili dog and beer farts, and the penal code now requires you to breathe deeply and compliment the officer for ordering extra onions, or you can be charged with a class 1 felony.
I swear some of the people here are so blisteringly paranoid that it's not even funny.
"My God the cops were on my street! I bet they were spying on me!"
Post by: K Frame on June 21, 2008, 08:53:04 PM
I just phoned the police a few minutes ago.
My next door neighbor's front door has been ajar since about 10 p.m. I don't know if they're there or not.
Post by: vaskidmark on June 22, 2008, 01:02:59 AM
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This is very peculiar...
I just phoned the police a few minutes ago.
My next door neighbor's front door has been ajar since about 10 p.m. I don't know if they're there or not.
I just phoned the police a few minutes ago.
My next door neighbor's front door has been ajar since about 10 p.m. I don't know if they're there or not.
If you look out your front window again, you can tell if the cops are there or not - they will be the ones driving the cars with the flashing blue & red lights. The trucks with the tall skinny thingy sticking up into the sky from the roof are the TV station folks.
Black helicopters sent to spy on you do not have NightSun searchlights they shine down on your house. Those also belong to the cops. The helicopters buzzing the cops' helicopters belong to the TV news, not to the Minutemen.
This lesson in how to figure out if the cops are there or not was brought to you by PROZAC.
stay safe.
skidmark
stay safe.
skidmark
Post by: K Frame on June 22, 2008, 03:12:53 AM
Police were here around 3 a.m.
I didn't speak to them, but I don't hear my neighbor whining about how the police woke him up at 3, in essence sodomizing his rights for all time...
"This lesson in how to figure out if the cops are there or not was brought to you by PROZAC."
You really need to learn how to use the English language... Then again, it might mess with your Prozac high
Post by: old school on June 22, 2008, 04:57:03 AM
Oh, they can also slap you around, empty your wallet, and take an upper decker in your hall bathroom and you are required, BY LAW, to scream at the top of your lungs "THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME YOUR BITCH SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!" while drizzling chocolate sauce over your head and hanging marischino cherries off your nipples.
Oh, and while they're on the way out your door, they can also cut nasty greasy chili dog and beer farts, and the penal code now requires you to breathe deeply and compliment the officer for ordering extra onions, or you can be charged with a class 1 felony.
My stomach hurts from laughing at this post.............over the top!
Post by: K Frame on June 22, 2008, 08:56:43 AM
They are both VERY appreciative of the fact that I called the police.
Fairfax County police acted in the same exact manner - they searched the house and woke the neighbors up.
Instead of being whining punks about how the police violated their rights, etc., my neighbors are essentially calling themselves dumbasses for forgetting to check the front door when they went to bed.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 22, 2008, 09:13:27 AM
Did the police?
Post by: K Frame on June 22, 2008, 09:54:09 AM
No phone registered to the house, and I have no clue what their cell phone numbers are.
I know that for a fact because they asked me about Verizon FIOS a few months ago. I have all three packages - phone, cable, and internet. His comment at the time was "we both have our cell phones, we're not going to bother with a phone in the house."
The neighbors on the other side of me are the same way.
Post by: Dntsycnt on June 22, 2008, 11:34:53 AM
My household is that way.
I remember in my younger, rowdier days, me and some friends snuck into my then girlfriend's yard to TP it (Yes, we were brilliantly clever little pranksters), and saw that her front door was hanging open. It was about 2 AM and no lights were on in the house, and their property was 20 minutes from anywhere. It may sound stupid, but it was a truly disturbing moment to see that and then agonize over what may have been going on and whether we should attempt to contact anyone.
We ended up just leaving, and the next day I found out they had a completely glass door on the outside that was nigh to invisible at night.
So I can see the concern, though I'm not exactly comfortable with the idea of police coming into my home and waking me up. (Though that wouldn't happen with me, since my bedroom remains locked up whenever I'm asleep.)
Post by: seeker_two on June 22, 2008, 01:24:53 PM
Post by: HankB on June 22, 2008, 05:33:43 PM
Police entering a home under these circumstances is not the best procedure.
It seems to me both the homeowner and the police displayed poor judgement, which led to a situation which could easily have ended very, very badly.
Post by: RevDisk on June 22, 2008, 08:43:00 PM
Leaving doors wide open at night is not a mark of a brilliant intellect.
Police entering a home under these circumstances is not the best procedure.
It seems to me both the homeowner and the police displayed poor judgement, which led to a situation which could easily have ended very, very badly.
Police entering a home under these circumstances is not the best procedure.
It seems to me both the homeowner and the police displayed poor judgement, which led to a situation which could easily have ended very, very badly.
Yea, they could have nice and tossed a flashbang in first. That'll wake up 'em up.
Post by: K Frame on June 23, 2008, 05:16:27 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on June 23, 2008, 05:20:40 AM
They're members of the cell phone generation.
No phone registered to the house, and I have no clue what their cell phone numbers are.
I know that for a fact because they asked me about Verizon FIOS a few months ago. I have all three packages - phone, cable, and internet. His comment at the time was "we both have our cell phones, we're not going to bother with a phone in the house."
The neighbors on the other side of me are the same way.
No phone registered to the house, and I have no clue what their cell phone numbers are.
I know that for a fact because they asked me about Verizon FIOS a few months ago. I have all three packages - phone, cable, and internet. His comment at the time was "we both have our cell phones, we're not going to bother with a phone in the house."
The neighbors on the other side of me are the same way.
I don't have a landline. I haven't for years. I see no reason for a phone that rings where I'm not.
As for the neighbors, well, there's always throwing pinecones at their bedroom window...
Post by: K Frame on June 23, 2008, 05:21:27 AM
Post by: Biker on June 23, 2008, 07:31:26 AM
However, I have a fenced yard with a padlock on the gate.
Anyone know how the padlock would effect a cop's decision (legally) to enter my property?
Biker