Car buying strategies, balancing costs and wants, new vs used

[cfabe]

Well I'm in the market for a new car. I currently have a worn out 94 caprice police car, which served me well during college. I graduated last december and got a job making good money. I'm really having a problem deciding what to aim at in a new (or used) car.

From a pure practicality standpoint, I think the best bet would be a new economy car, with a good warranty, and good fuel economy. Hyundai elantra or similar. Friend has one and it's a fine car, but nothing to get excited about and not particulary nice to drive on long trips. Noisy at speed and harsh cheap suspension, and cheap seats. I also find these cars usually feel pretty small to me.

From a pure desire standpoint, I want a mid-size sports sedan. Audi A6 or similar. I want stick shift and >200hp engine, and a suspension and ride that's sporty but comfortable. Obviously this will be more expensive, and more thirsty. I usually drive less than 10k miles a year so fuel economy is not a huge deal but it is still a consideration.

There are some cars that might offer a comfortable mix. Nissan Altima and Maxima are high on my list right now. The real question is how do you weigh the decicsion over bare bones econocar versus nice comfortable fun car. Can I justifiy spending the extra $$ for a nicer car? Do I want to spend any money at all on a cheaper car I may tire of and regret?

Add into this discussion new versus used. I can get a lightly used, 3 year old, 50k mile Maxima for about what I'd pay for a new econo car. How much risk is there in buying a newer used car, versus a new one with a manufacturers warranty?

So I find myself at a point in my life where I'm making my first large purchase decicsion. I know that many recent grads make the mistake of overspending on a car, and I don't want to fall into that trap. I also have to consider that whatever I spend on a car now will cut into my savings, which are intended to purchase a house or land in a few years.

[DigMe]

The real question is how do you weigh the decicsion over bare bones econocar versus nice comfortable fun car. Can I justifiy spending the extra $$ for a nicer car?

That's subjective and can only be answered by you.  Some people would find it worth it and others wouldn't.

One option is what my parents have done a few times.  They buy used cars from Hertz.  My dad says that Hertz maintains them well and sells their cars after one year.  They bought a Toyota Camry a few weeks back and it actually had pretty low mileage.  

brad cook

[K Frame]

There are a LOT of virtually new cars that come out of fleets such as Hertz or out of short leases (2, 3 year).

That lets someoen else take the hit on the depreciation, and allows you to afford more car than you otherwise would.

I think I'm pretty much through buying new cars.


As mtnbkr about Nissan Altimas. He's NOT happy with his. It is, quite literally, falling apart with something less than 80K miles on it.


As for where to buy a car, and the risk involved...

ALWAYS get a CarFax report for the car you're considering.

Check to see if your bank or credit union has special buying service deals (Navy Federal Credit Union does for its members).

Peruse Consumer's Reports for their listings of reliable cars.

[cfabe]

I would be interested to hear mtnbkr's problems with his Nissan. My sister drives a 97 sentra that's going strong at 195k miles, and I've talked to a few other people with positive things to say about nissan. I'm sure every make has it's lemons of course. Consumer's reports seems to think pretty well of nissan (though I believe they favor japanese cars in general).

I will get a carfax, I've used their services in the past.

[The Rabbi]

As to how comfortable, probably it will depend on how much time you'll be in it.  If your job invovles a lot of travel then being stuck in a mini gas miser for 4hours a day sounds aweful.  But if it's just every now and then it makes sense.
I second buying used.  I try to buy a car about 5 years old with low mileage and then drive it forever.  I have found that dead people make great sellers.  My current Sebring convertible was owned by a guy in his late 60s who drove it seldom and died.  His daughter traded it for a Volvo and so the dealership had this '97 Sebring with 23k miles on it and I got it for $7k.  So I heartily recommend buying from the dead.

[K Frame]

The Altima and Sentra are different creatures.

I had a Stanza that was great, but it didn't have AC, and in DC that's the kiss of death.


The dealership I bought my Subaru from includes Carfax reports as standard items.

[cfabe]

My commute to work is 3 miles, but I do often travel 3 hours to detroit both for work and personal trips. And make a fair ammount of ~1 hour trips around home. I know an econobox will suffice, but I'd like something more refined. I'm generally not one to squander money, though, so it's giving me pause to spend the extra money for a nicer vehicle.

[garyk/nm]

So I heartily recommend buying from the dead.

Bwaahaahaahaa...Next George Romero film: "Car of the Dead".

Re: rental cars. This can backfire on you. Most of us good folks drive rental cars as we would our own. Others don't.  Forewarned is forearmed.

[DigMe]

True, gary.  They've worked out well in all cases for my parents though.

I was just looking at hertz and enterprise rent-a-cars' sales inventories online.  There were some really great deals there.

brad cook

[jefnvk]

I was just looking at hertz and enterprise rent-a-cars' sales inventories online.  There were some really great deals there

One thing I have been warned about is buying used cars from rental companies.  Seems they get driven harder than someone's own, personal car, maintence is iffy and the whole they get dumped when their value starts to slide.

Now, that is not my personal experience, just people that I know that have bought them.

What about a cheap year old new car?  There was a dealer in the area last fall selling brand new Cavaliers for $6900, that were going on two model years old and being discontinued by Chevy.  Same thing for some other cars, although the prices wern't that low.

[Sindawe]

I'll stay away from rentals.  I used to work in that industry, and the employer who'll I'll not name (but their name is a lot like the flagship of the United Federation of Planets) would only do an LOF  ever 7,500 miles, and use the cheapest supplies they could get.  Maybe they've changed since the 1980s, but I'd not put any money on it.

[DigMe]

Well I've never heard anything about buying from Enterprise really but here's the thing about Hertz:
They keep a detailed maintenance record that can be viewed before you buy the car.  You can see all routine maintenance done and any problems the car has had, they give you a one year 12,000 mile warranty, most of the cars are one year old when they sell them and most of them are still under warranty mileage and just in general I've heard that Hertz specifically is good about taking care of their fleet.

brad cook

[Art Eatman]

I got into auto mechanics as an avocation, what with sports car racing and all that, so I have a different view than most.

But I have been "bending wrenches" for a long, long time.

I buy used.  I haven't tried to learn all the computer stuff, but I can do most anything else on a car.

I like the Toyotas, for sure.  Specifically, anything with the 22R motor.  It started out as a forklift motor, and is understressed and bullet proof.  Just change oil, check the valve lash every 30 or 40 K miles and all's well.  Caveat:  Don't use a high pH water in the cooling system.  For any allow engine or cylinder head, distilled water is the way to go.

Short term, given what's going on with gas prices as well as the potential for a general economic downturn, I'd buy late-model used and high gas mileage.  

One of the local Toyota salesmen said they're getting many trade-ins, right now, and really ripping the gas-hog trader folks.  Selling at window sticker, and giving bank loan or less on the trade-in.

Quality pays.  I bought my '85 Toyota 4x4 PU new.  285,000 miles on it.  I've done almost all the work, except stuff like the front end seals.  I screwed up and blew one engine, but my own fault; 112,000 miles on it since then.  I worked out the numbers and it has cost me about $0.14 per mile to own.  That's total everything; buying, gas/oil, tires, insurance, tags.

If you run across an older Dodge PU with the 6-cyl Cummins diesel, a buddy of mine is getting 21mpg on the highway with his.

FWIW, Art

I see a lot of older Nissan Sentras buzzing along happily.

[Morgan]

Back in my racing days, some amazing, stupid, and dangerous things were done by myself and other racers with rentals - I wouldn't want one of these cars.  We took great care of our bikes, and abused the crap out of rentals.

Some econoboxes are actually quite fun to drive.  My little Focus handles every bit as well as my Z28, and is quite fun to drive, though it could use more power.

[Standing Wolf]

Hey, dude! Just do it the illegal alien way: steal the car of your dreams.

Seriously: one factor to consider is the cost of insuring your car. Some cars aren't too bad; others bring a gleam of joy to your insurance agent's eye.

[Guest]

I have only bought one new vehicle in my life, my '93 S10.  Always wondered what the sound of the pea gravel going "ping" as I drove off the lot with a new one sounded like. That is the sound of Depreciation.  Actually at the time, it was less monies for me to buy new with all the Rebates, First time buyer and whatnot over a 1year one with 13K miles. The new one I bought had the package I wanted to.

I suggest used as well.  I have bought most of mine used from folks I knew and knew of the upkeep, maintenance and such.

With Carfax and such one can check out a vehicle found in the newpaper. Sometimes folks get divorced, parting out, and death of a person turns up some good deals.  I know folks that bought vehicles from Church folks, in particular Missionaries selling before they went back into the boonies.

I shared with Art earlier a lady bought a '93 truck like mine for cash.  She got a heads up this fellow was going to sell it. "Gets me a new truck every 10 yrs or 100k miles". He bought it new from dealer, and dealer did all the work.

Her grandma had given her her Corolla when she could no longer drive. Then when Grandma passed she inherited some monies. Well the Corolla up and died. Now being a older returning student , outdoorsy, doing some stuff on a ranch/ farm and Vet Medicine studies...She bought the truck.  Folks that don't know her well figured she'd get a new Corolla. Nope  we folks that do figured she get a used truck and she did.

Paid cash, insurance is cheap, and she is doing some stuff like a tool box and normal upkeep before fall / winter and studies get more intense.

Another classmate  bought a Honda Civic , freind of family and folks knew the car. Another case of no longer able to drive and this one was also bought new and keep up by dealer.  Meticulous records written by Fountain Pen I might add.

[cfabe]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone. I went out test driving tonight and drove some pretty nice cars, but none really struck me as worth the cost. I'm thinking that for me right now a slightly used, 03 or 04 econocar will probably be the most sensable choice. My dad and step-mom both have ford focuses that they like, and while I'm not in love with them they do handle pretty well and would serve me well I think. I test drove one with the 2.3L engine and manual transmission a year ago, and I remember being somewhat impressed. I may see if I can find one locally to test drive. May also look into a Mazda3, rode in a classmates once and was pretty impressed with the interior.

My only concern with these smaller cars is the safety in a collision with a larger vehicle. I just found out a co-worker and his two daughters were in a pretty bad accident this weekend, and that's sort of reminded me how suddently the crashworthiness of a car can be of utmost importance. I'll be checking out IIHS and NHTSA ratings tomorrow and eliminating anything that's really poor.

[Art Eatman]

No argument that crashworthiness is a factor.  However, I've joked that I drive like an old hoot-owl:  My head's always turning, looking for that guy that's gonna run out and hit me.

Always assume that the world is full of idiots that can't drive their way out of a paper sack.

"Condition Yellow" applies to more than Jeff Cooper's usage.  Self-defense includes not getting bent-up sheet metal or eating a windshield.

Art

[mfree]

If you're shopping Hyundais wait a year, there are 3 new vehicles slated for introduction next year, and rumor has it one is a 3.8L RWD sedan at $25K or so.

Hyundai's mechanics are decent, everything seems to be put together by engineers and not comittees. Same was with my Daewoo, though that was a GM Holden family II engine from Australia.

The only *serious* mechanical funkiness I've ever seen was when the automaker had new technology, were modifying something to match a new requirement, or adapting a motor to do something it wasn't designed for. examples?

1. New systems: Try working on Ford's 1983-4 EEC-IV driven TBI systems sometimes. Or, for that matter, Chrysler's 1984 Turbo EFI systems.

2. Modifying something to match a new requirement: Ford's later 351M/400M engines... compression ratios in the high 7's with cam timing retarded FIVE DEGREES, jsut to get emissions down to federal levels. Previously the 400M was a 300hp/370lb-ft engine in 1973.

3. Adapting an engine to do something not intended: There's a huge, huge laundry list here. Any time a Japanese auto manufacturer took their RWD designs and turned the engine 90 degrees for FWD, you got nastiness. Mitsu's 2.6 as found in chrysler products. Ford did it too when they stuck the Essex 3.8 in Taurii and windstars, the rear head would overheat and warp. GM's not immune either, ever see the engine bay of a 2.8L J-body?

Anyways, part of my point is that these three major snafu's aren't much around anymore... even the "latest and greatest" technologies have been around for almost a decade, things like variable valve timing and distributorless ignition systems. Engine families have settled out, carmakers are focusing on horsepower wars again. Even Hyundai's going to have some 240HP V6's soon.

Just shop around and snag what feels good, here's a HUGE number of mid-sized, fair economy, sporty vehicles out there.

Even my old Daewoo, god rest it's soul... rated 131hp, drove like it had 160 (mostly because the power curve was more of a 4000RPM long plateau), seated 5 comfy, rode well, handled better than a lot of cars still do now... only beef was it was hard to get parts for, and it sacrificed itself to give me an injury-less ~25mph head on impact with a concrete wall. Too bad the autos are dogs and the sticks are like hen's teeth...

I moved into an '03 GMC sonoma, base, with a 2.2 and 5 speed. Great little truck. Doesn't handle for anything but can haul a medium load and gets 26mpg.

[cfabe]

Well, a bit of an update is due I think. I was at the mazda dealer last night and they're doing some pretty good deals on the Mazda6. I drove the 160hp 4-cyl and the 220hp v6, both manual, and was pretty impressed, espicially by the 4. The v6 is a pretty rev-happy motor, so you have to really wind it up to get into the power band, which I tend to not do in normal driving. The 4 had a much broader power curve and until 5k the v6 felt no stronger than the 4. The v6 is definately not worth the $2000 and 5mpg on this car. The ride, handling, and steering on the car were excellent, espicially for the price with my supplier discount and the rebates. Seems to be just about what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately since I'm shopping the remaining 2005s to get a $3000 rebate, I have to find what I want on a dealer's lot. Pretty hard to find a base model, manual transmission, with the side airbags and no/few other options. I've found a few possible ones but they're far away. Might be worth the drive though. The other thorn in my side is you can't get the black interior I liked without the $2000 sport package. I'll have to go see the beige in person, but it will probably be acceptable. I know all the automakers play silly marketing games like this, but it's still annoying.

This is the first new car I've ever bought, and the first one that cost over $2000. Still strikes me as an expensive purchase but I think it's worth it to have a reliable vehicle that I enjoy.

[Jamisjockey]

My advice?  It revolves around mistakes made in my past, repeatedly, that got me in over my head in debt, which it took almost 5 years to get rid of.
If you're determined to make payments, go small.  I just bought a used 2003 Hyundai Elantra.  Reasonably loaded, 5 speed, 18,000k, $8900 purchase price.  I was really impressed with the Elantra, its a very sturdy, responsive car.  I'm glad I bought it.  My payments for that are under $200 a month.  (Too bad my wife is a moron, and we're paying over $500 a month for her 2003 SUV.  I can't wait to get that monkey off our back.)
Save a couple hundred a month, pay that to yourself in the form of a Mutual fund of some kind, and when the Hyundai is paid off you'll have enough put away to pay cash for your next ride.  If you're paying more than $200 a month you won't put the cash away for the next car.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

"Might be worth the drive though."
It will, if you plan to drive it for a long time.  A day or even weekend trip to get the one you REALLY want will pay dividends every day you get behind the wheel.

[cfabe]

It's not so much that I'd be driving to get the one I want. I'd be driving to get one with just the features I want, and not extra options. Just to save the money. The one I test drove at the dealer has everything I want (side airbags, black interior), just also has the flashy wheels and power seat that I don't need, making it about $1000 more. Did some more searching online this morning, and the only ones without those extra options are 8+ hours away, so I don't think the trip is worth it. Right now I'm thinking that the best choice all things considered is the one local to me here. I'm totally satisfied with the car, it's just a little more expensive than I was really looking for.

Jason, your advice is excellent advice. I know how easy it is to get into debt, I've had a bit of a problem with my credit card in the past when I was in college, luckily I saw what was happening early enough that it just cost me some interest charges. The payment on this car is going to come in at just over $300 a month, which I can easily afford. I'm already set up on pay-yourself-first with my 401k and employee stock purchase plan, and I'm going to be setting up a shorter term investment account soon to funnel my house-downpayment savings into.

[jefnvk]

Pretty hard to find a base model, manual transmission, with the side airbags and no/few other options.

Can't they do a dealer transfer for you?  That is what we did for my car, it came from a few hundred miles away.  Seems not too many people want a bone-stock, stick shift these days.

[cfabe]

The other one I would consider getting was 900 miles away in northern minnesota. I didn't ask, but I would assume they wouldn't transport it down here for me for free.

Since it ended up not being as big a difference in price as I thought, I decided to get the one that's in stock here. Color I want, engine/trans I want, airbags I want, and just an extra power seat and nicer wheels. Price came in at about 17.5k, which I'm comfortable with. So now I get to pick up my first new car tomorrow evening. I'm pretty excited.