Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 96234 times)

RevDisk

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #200 on: March 25, 2012, 11:24:02 PM »
Let me make perfectly clear that I think that Zimmerman should be indicted and tried.  I'd like to see all the evidence presented and a jury decide his guilt or innocence.  But in my mind there is at least enough to indict him for either murder or manslaughter.

I concur, with the proviso that it is solely based on known information.  Which is likely incomplete, as it comes from primarily media sources who are paid to lie about basically everything. But the general details are enough to warrant a proper investigation.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #201 on: March 26, 2012, 02:52:34 AM »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #202 on: March 26, 2012, 03:39:35 AM »
Thanks. Interesting.

Crazy that he says we don't have enough information yet. He should talk to De Selby.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #203 on: March 26, 2012, 04:09:55 AM »
Thanks. Interesting.

Crazy that he says we don't have enough information yet. He should talk to De Selby.

Yeah, probably a safe bet that I'm better at applying the law to cases than mas "no reloads" ayoob - but no need to speculate on who would be right - the grand jury will tell us soon.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #204 on: March 26, 2012, 04:18:16 AM »
Yeah, probably a safe bet that I'm better at applying the law to cases than mas "no reloads" ayoob - but no need to speculate on who would be right - the grand jury will tell us soon.

I would be careful about that bet.

Mas Ayoob has a well deserved and respected reputation around the world.

He deserves the recognition that he has, and it is not simply because he believes that he is a legend in his own mind.

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« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 09:49:28 AM by mtnbkr »
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #205 on: March 26, 2012, 05:10:46 AM »
I would not detect one bit from his stellar reputation as a law enforcement and self defence tactics expert - law is amdifferentnsotiry
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #206 on: March 26, 2012, 07:33:54 AM »
Meanwhile, in Chi-town:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-19/news/chi-chicago-weekend-shootings-killings-violence-crime_1_shooting-victims-south-winchester-avenue-west-rogers-park

Quote
At least 10 people were killed, including a 6-year-old girl, in shootings over the weekend in Chicago.

The slain were among at least 49 people wounded in shootings from 5 p.m. Friday to 6 a.m. Monday, according to information compiled by the Chicago Tribune.

I am sure we'll see Sharpton & Crew leave Orlando and displace to Chicago, where they are killing black men, women, & children in wholesale lots.

<little bird whispers into my ear>

Oh, never mind.  Those are just black folks killing black folks in Chicago and nobody gives a damn about that.
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Ron

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #207 on: March 26, 2012, 09:15:22 AM »
Reality check on murder in America, who are the victims and who are the perpetrators.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/294357/why-manipulate-tragedy-trayvon-martin-heather-mac-donald
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

HankB

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #208 on: March 26, 2012, 09:23:10 AM »
Let's sum up what we think we know from piecing together various press reports . . .

George Zimmerman calls police about a suspicious person, follows him, and at some point gets out of his car to follow him. (Dumb, but not criminal at this point.) Trayvon Martin's girlfriend later comes forward and says she got a call from Martin saying that he was being followed.

<GAP>

Zimmerman claims to be walking away from Trayvon Martin when he's attacked - injuries consisted with this are noted. A witness claims he saw Zimmerman being pummeled by Martin, went inside to call police, and heard a gunshot. Looked out and saw Martin down and Zimmerman standing. Police said Zimmerman had "injuries" and the back of his shirt was wet, consistent with being on his back on wet grass.

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE GAP?

IF it can be shown that Zimmerman initiated violent contact, attacked Martin, tried to detain him, or something of the kind . . . he's legally toast. He had no authority to do that, and if he actually picked a fight with Martin, tried to grab him, or threatened him (actual threats or fighting words, not just a verbal exchange) justified self-defense with a firearm doesn't apply; claiming self defense if you begin losing a fight you started in the first place doesn't play well in court.

IF on the other hand Zimmerman didn't initiate violence, had actually had stopped following Martin at some point and was in fact walking away - trying to break contact - when attacked . . . I don't see a crime here.

If anyone KNOWS what happened in the gap - no guessing, no extrapolation, no assumption, no inferences, I'm looking for ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of what happened in the gap, please share it.

I haven't seen anything definitive yet from any posts here, and I still find myself unable to reach an informed conclusion about what happened.
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longeyes

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #209 on: March 26, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »
The Zimmerman case is confirming the worst of what we already knew--about Sharpton-Jackson, about Obama, about Spike Lee, about the New Black Panthers, and most especially about the terminal state of so many of our illusions about American culture and political "unity."  We lost control of this game long ago, and most of us are just along the ride.  And quite a ride it is, with the worst of it lying ahead.  There are people in this nation dedicated to creating culture fractures and particularly a race war in America.  They need to be called out, named, and ousted from what we like to call the "conversation."  This is or should be a nation of laws.  Let's try to stick to that track if it's still possible.  Personally, I doubt it, and no election is going to change the fact that America has turned from a nation into a pop culture mob.
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #210 on: March 26, 2012, 11:12:11 AM »
I would not detect {sic} one bit from his stellar reputation as a law enforcement and self defence tactics expert - law is amdifferentnsotiry{sic}

Huh? ? ? ? ? ?
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zxcvbob

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #211 on: March 26, 2012, 12:36:34 PM »
Is it possible that this is nobody's fault?  A confluence of both men doing the best they could with the information they had? (kid attacked Z because he thought Z was an armed stalker about to kill him, then Z shot in self defense)
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AJ Dual

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #212 on: March 26, 2012, 01:08:21 PM »
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE GAP?

IF it can be shown that Zimmerman initiated violent contact, attacked Martin, tried to detain him, or something of the kind . . . he's legally toast. He had no authority to do that, and if he actually picked a fight with Martin, tried to grab him, or threatened him (actual threats or fighting words, not just a verbal exchange) justified self-defense with a firearm doesn't apply; claiming self defense if you begin losing a fight you started in the first place doesn't play well in court.

IF on the other hand Zimmerman didn't initiate violence, had actually had stopped following Martin at some point and was in fact walking away - trying to break contact - when attacked . . . I don't see a crime here.

If anyone KNOWS what happened in the gap - no guessing, no extrapolation, no assumption, no inferences, I'm looking for ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of what happened in the gap, please share it.

I haven't seen anything definitive yet from any posts here, and I still find myself unable to reach an informed conclusion about what happened.

It really comes down to this.  If it's #1, manslaughter. (and riots for it not being capital murder or whatever it is that would make "them" happy) If it's #2, no-bill.  (riots)

With everyone agreeing Zimmerman was a dumbass to get things to this point, either way.

Either way though, I think SYG does not come into play whether it's #1 or #2. Basic Self-Defense if it's #2 , but I can't fathom anyone honestly claiming SYG applies after following someone by car and on foot through your neighborhood first. 
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #213 on: March 26, 2012, 01:16:16 PM »
Couple of things...
First, I am surprised by how many people find that wearing a hood up on a hooded sweatshirt makes one suspect.  I don't know if it was raining or cool when this happened, but the simple act of wearing a hood up shouldn't equate suspicious activity, should it?  I put up the hood of my coat when I walk the dog in the rain, does that make me suspicious?
Second, I recall reading somewhere that this was a neighborhood watch of one.  He was his own neighborhood watch, and not a part of any formal organization.  Does it matter?  Don't know yet.
Third, much has been made...good and bad...about the background of both players in this event.  Backgrounds are irrelevent, it is only the acts of the event which matter to the situation being self-defense or a homicide.
My concern in this whole thing is that the truth has become a victim of the circumstances, and as such we may never know that truth.  For the louder the crowds yell, and the larger they get, the more likely it is that someone along the way will say "remember LA burning?  We don't want that again/here."  And, as such, to appease the masses, there will be an arrest, likely a trial, and then, who knows?  But by appeasing the masses, is justice served?  Is it a crime because the incident occured as speculated, or is it a crime because millions of people are talking about it and suddenly wearing hooded sweatshirts?  We are a nation founded on the principal (at least in theory) that the majorty rules.  And, if the majority watching Inside Edition decides that Mr. Neighborhood Watch is guilty, must it be that way, to preserve the peace?
I, for one, watch with keen interest how this plays out, and with hope to know the truth...
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #214 on: March 26, 2012, 01:35:02 PM »
The Zimmerman case is confirming the worst of what we already knew--about Sharpton-Jackson, about Obama, about Spike Lee, about the New Black Panthers, and most especially about the terminal state of so many of our illusions about American culture and political "unity." 

It's confirming the worst about others too.  Now I'm seeing a picture floating around that people are claiming is the "real" Treyvon Martin.  Some dumb kid dressed as a banger flipping the bird to the camera. No actual proof that it's him, and the picture is fuzzy enough that you really can't tell anything other than it's a young black guy.  Somehow this is supposed to show he was a bad guy and shooting him was okay.
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MillCreek

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #215 on: March 26, 2012, 02:12:24 PM »


I shamelessly stole this from a bicycling forum.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #216 on: March 26, 2012, 03:04:49 PM »
Huh? ? ? ? ? ?

Ah, my iPhone "helps" me in ways I don't expect.

Chris, don't be surprised - for some reason I do not understand, gun forums are teeming with reasons not to call this a bad shoot.  Huge numbers of people outside gun forums are outraged by the facts.  They seem to be concluding (not unreasonably, it seems) that trayvon's race played a role in him being John doe'd to the medical examiner, while the shooter went home with his gun.

The "options" that have Zimmerman going free if trayvon attacked him are fantasy - you'd need a 911 tape of trayvon reporting a suspicious person in a car and then chasing him down to get that. 

My view, on the 911 tapes alone, it's going to be impossible for the shooter to make out a self defence claim.  Witnesses that have him being mercilessly beaten on the head with a pack of skittles will only help reduce his sentence.

You have to wonder...was Zimmerman a member of any forums, and did he get any advice on them?  The irony of Zimmerman commenting on some other case, like the OK pharmacist, won't stay out of the press long if he did.

Can we all imagine for a second, if the media gets on these forums, what they'll make of the comments about hoodies and the not-so-veiled "if the shoe fits" references to trayvon's appearance?

Theyd be right to point out that where we should be on the front foot in condemning irresponsible gun ownership, many of us are making excuses.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #218 on: March 26, 2012, 04:15:03 PM »
Next week you will be able to buy your official Treyvon Martin Hoodieâ„¢ at Wal-Mart.
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HankB

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #219 on: March 26, 2012, 04:45:27 PM »
Next week you will be able to buy your official Treyvon Martin Hoodieâ„¢ at Wal-Mart.
Sabrina Fulton (Trayvon Martin's mother) is seeking trademarks to the phrases  “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon”

BTW, you know how minor offenses from Zimmerman's past were dredged up? Well, it turns out Trayvon Martin received a 10 day suspension from school for "possession of an empty marijuana baggie." (An empty bag is an offense?)

MSNBC is reporting that evidence points to Zimmerman being attacked - not conclusive since it comes largely from Zimmerman, but it would appear to be at least partially corroborated by a witness . . .  and if physical evidence is consistent with the account, it explains why Zimmerman hasn't been arrested yet.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-police-report-details-alleged-attack-on-zimmerman

I'm sure there are a lot of officials working hard to poke holes in Zimmerman's story - no doubt investigators are in full CSI-mode to try and develop something concrete, but with local, state, and Fed authorities involved, and politics weighing heavily on the investigation, actual evidence may get . . . muddled.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 04:52:57 PM by HankB »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #220 on: March 26, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »
Chris, don't be surprised - for some reason I do not understand, gun forums are teeming with reasons not to call this a bad shoot. 

Gun owners have open minds, and are willing to suspend judgment until they know more?



Quote
Huge numbers of people outside gun forums are outraged by the facts their perceptions about what actually happened.  They seem to be concluding (based on preconceived views about Southern gun-owners) that trayvon's race played a role in him being John doe'd to the medical examiner, while the shooter went home with his gun.

Fixed that for you.


Huge numbers of people outside gun forums are also outraged by the automatic judgments against Zimmerman, and all the race-baiting. Are you unaware of that?

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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #221 on: March 26, 2012, 08:02:23 PM »
Ah, my iPhone "helps" me in ways I don't expect.

Chris, don't be surprised - for some reason I do not understand, gun forums are teeming with reasons not to call this a bad shoot.  Huge numbers of people outside gun forums are outraged by the facts.  They seem to be concluding (not unreasonably, it seems) that trayvon's race played a role in him being John doe'd to the medical examiner, while the shooter went home with his gun.

The "options" that have Zimmerman going free if trayvon attacked him are fantasy - you'd need a 911 tape of trayvon reporting a suspicious person in a car and then chasing him down to get that. 

My view, on the 911 tapes alone, it's going to be impossible for the shooter to make out a self defence claim.  Witnesses that have him being mercilessly beaten on the head with a pack of skittles will only help reduce his sentence.

You have to wonder...was Zimmerman a member of any forums, and did he get any advice on them?  The irony of Zimmerman commenting on some other case, like the OK pharmacist, won't stay out of the press long if he did.

Can we all imagine for a second, if the media gets on these forums, what they'll make of the comments about hoodies and the not-so-veiled "if the shoe fits" references to trayvon's appearance?

Theyd be right to point out that where we should be on the front foot in condemning irresponsible gun ownership, many of us are making excuses.

Zimmerman strikes me as the sort of person who somehow magically "knows" how to handle everything without taking advice.  In his mind he wears  blue leotards with an "S" on the chest under his clothes.


As far as Zimmerman going "free" .....I am not counting the chickens before the eggs hatch.
He's atleast "guilty" of rotten judgement but I wonder what a good defense lawyer will make of the injury Zimmerman had and what some witnessses claim. 
And don't misread me, DeSelby.....I think he's probably atleast wrong to the degree of manslaughter....but our courts HAVE done screwy things......
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #222 on: March 26, 2012, 08:13:51 PM »
From this article, comes this little nugget....

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-police-report-details-alleged-attack-on-zimmerman

Quote
Meanwhile, Angela Corey, the special prosecutor, told ABC News that means "the state must go forward and be able to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. ... So it makes the case in general more difficult than a normal criminal case."

WHAT THE [CENSORED]????   Umm, excuse me Ms. Corey, that's the standard for ANY criminal case.  Or are juries in FL instructed to convict just on "a preponderance of the evidence" or "if they feel like it" or "if the defendant *looks* guilty?" 
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #223 on: March 26, 2012, 08:23:59 PM »
Gun owners have open minds, and are willing to suspend judgment until they know more?


How ironic the de selby has already made up his mind, and then he calls others out who do not agree with him.

De selby's hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I also noticed that he is sucking up to Chris by insinuating that only lawyers can have valid opinions.

I wonder if he removes his clown shoes at bedtime.....
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #224 on: March 26, 2012, 08:28:40 PM »
Actually Tommy, you do raise a good point - there's always jury nullification to consider.  That could set him free.

I'm trying to imagine a realistic version of "the gap" in the tapes that would make zimmerman legally in the right, and I just can't see it.  Being attacked by the kid he shot isn't going to do the trick; it would have to be so unreasonable as to be impossible, something along the lines of "oh, sorry trayvon, I thought you were someone else, I'm leaving now" and then getting attacked anyway.  

Re your earlier comment, OJ was in a much stronger position.  His jury was selected from a community that despised the LAPD and believed them capable of any amount of lying.  So OJ basically got up and said "they .  





"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."