Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on June 15, 2021, 04:30:33 PM
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https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57443598
TL;DR Windows 10, which was going to be the last version of Windows, will be killed off as of October 2025.
I think it's time for me to explore Linux. I have an old Dell desktop computer I can use as a test bed. What are the current flavors of Linux that are the most popular and easiest to work with (in terms of printer support, etc.)? Which look the most Windows-like (preferably like Windows XP, or maybe Windows 7)?
Can I start playing with them by running them from a DVD or thumb drive?
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I'm going to Mint soon. Yes you can run it as a test from a stick.
Besides Raspbian I've not messed with Linux in a few years so not sure what the current GUI's look like.
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Mint is the linux version most people recommend.
As far as Windows going to v11 not sure why you think MS is sticking it to us, 10 years (2015-2025) is a good run for an OS considering how fast tech is advancing. Most Linux versions change every few years. In just what 5 years? Mint has gone from v18 to 20.1 and support for 18 ended this year.
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As far as Windows going to v11 not sure why you think MS is sticking it to us, 10 years (2015-2025) is a good run for an OS considering how fast tech is advancing. Most Linux versions change version every few years. In just what 5 years? Mint has gone from v18 to 20.1.
I think what he means is that Win10 will now be the last version of Windows period. No more desktop OS. The next OS (Azure?)will be in the cloud, like Chrome, if what I have read is correct.
If that's the case, I'll likely be migrating to Linux full time whenever win10 support ends, which should be a ways past 2025. I'm anti-cloud [Boomer!].
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Linux is great, and I've used it exclusively for my workstations for well over ten years now. But, based on your other computer posts on this board, I do not see this going well.
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I think what he means is that Win10 will now be the last version of Windows period. No more desktop OS. The next OS (Azure?)will be in the cloud, like Chrome, if what I have read is correct.
If that's the case, I'll likely be migrating to Linux full time whenever win10 support ends, which should be a ways past 2025. I'm anti-cloud [Boomer!].
Mostly what I'm hearing in channels it's that it will be largely a major interface rework and that people are running wild with rumors. Could be wrong though.
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Linux is great, and I've used it exclusively for my workstations for well over ten years now. But, based on your other computer posts on this board, I do not see this going well.
I wasn't going there :rofl:
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I wasn't going there :rofl:
We'll teach him to code... what could go wrong?
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Possible W11 leak
Take with a boulder of salt
Windows 11 Screenshots leaked and ISO leak with build 21996 June 15th 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwSOYGro5Xg
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As far as Windows going to v11 not sure why you think MS is sticking it to us, 10 years (2015-2025) is a good run for an OS considering how fast tech is advancing. Most Linux versions change every few years. In just what 5 years? Mint has gone from v18 to 20.1 and support for 18 ended this year.
Microsoft has a track record of alternating really horrible versions of Windoze with fairly tolerable versions. Windows 10 hasn't been horrible, so anything that replaces it is virtually guaranteed to be bad. Aside from which, Microsoft still hasn't learned, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10x
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OSs have to keep up with hardware and software developments and band aid fixes can only go so far in keeping up before something major breaks. Yes it can be infuriating at times and sometimes they screw up but I'm not holding my breath on hardware and software developments staying static for 20-30 years. There are times I'm amazed how well MS has done in making an OS work on dozens of brands of computers made a 1k different ways. Even Linux has had to go through major version changes to keep up. Apple gets away with it by only needing to worry about their OS working on only their computers but even they have to completely revamp the OS from time to time and even the great and mighty Apple sometimes screws that up.
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OSs have to keep up with hardware and software developments and band aid fixes can only go so far in keeping up before something major breaks. Yes it can be infuriating at times and sometimes they screw up but I'm not holding my breath on hardware and software developments staying static for 20-30 years. There are times I'm amazed how well MS has done in making an OS work on dozens of brands of computers made a 1k different ways. Even Linux has had to go through major version changes to keep up. Apple gets away with it by only needing to worry about their OS working on only their computers but even they have to completely revamp the OS from time to time and even the great and mighty Apple sometimes screws that up.
Alright, that's enough with the facts. Knock that off!
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Deleted as not befitting a polite gentleman.
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More on that "W11" "leak"
Windows 11 Leaked - Let's Explore It! (Build 21996.1 Overview & Demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni2Bl6O07nA
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Mostly what I'm hearing in channels it's that it will be largely a major interface rework and that people are running wild with rumors. Could be wrong though.
Ohhh, goody. Just like the jump from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3.
"What could possibly go wrong?"
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https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57443598
TL;DR Windows 10, which was going to be the last version of Windows, will be killed off as of October 2025.
I think it's time for me to explore Linux. I have an old Dell desktop computer I can use as a test bed. What are the current flavors of Linux that are the most popular and easiest to work with (in terms of printer support, etc.)? Which look the most Windows-like (preferably like Windows XP, or maybe Windows 7)?
Mint Linux (https://linuxmint.com/) is what you want. "Cinnamon Edition" (https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4011), 64 bit, on any remotely capable modern hardware.
it comes up looking a lot like recent not-8 versions of Windows. Launch/task bar across the bottom, start button thingee in the lower left corner, indicator applerts in the lower right. Control panel like Settings area to configure all the usual stuff. Windows Store equivalent for easily adding apps.
Going to that is really no more jarring (in terms of getting used to stuff) than going to Win 10 from Win 7. IMHO&YMMV.
Printer support is pretty good, but research purchases first.
Can I start playing with them by running them from a DVD or thumb drive?
Yes
Microsoft has a track record of alternating really horrible versions of Windoze with fairly tolerable versions. Windows 10 hasn't been horrible, so anything that replaces it is virtually guaranteed to be bad. Aside from which, Microsoft still hasn't learned, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10x
With Windows 10 MS went to a semi-annual major release upgrade cycle, which is just like what Ubuntu has been doing for ages. (And, just like Ubuntu, there's a Long Term Release version that tracks an older release, but keeps current with security. Win 10 Enterprise LTR currently is 1809, I think.) The nifty thing about this is, you can get pretty close to current in one fell swoop by using the current installer. You don't have to nurse, like, 5 years of updates, servicing stack upgrades, etc.
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Ohhh, goody. Just like the jump from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3.
"What could possibly go wrong?"
Gnome 3 is when I just gave up on Gnome and went with xfce.
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All this talk of new stuff, if you find something that works why not just stick with it, like me. I have no problems with the Win 98 I am running. ;) :)
bob
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Gnome 3 is when I just gave up on Gnome and went with xfce.
And I was so happy when the Mate desktop (https://mate-desktop.org/) came out, which was a deliberate attempt to clone the Gnome 2 look and feel.
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Mint Linux (https://linuxmint.com/) is what you want. "Cinnamon Edition" (https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4011), 64 bit, on any remotely capable modern hardware.
it comes up looking a lot like recent not-8 versions of Windows. Launch/task bar across the bottom, start button thingee in the lower left corner, indicator applerts in the lower right. Control panel like Settings area to configure all the usual stuff.
Going to that is really no more jarring (in terms of getting used to stuff) than going to Win 10 from Win 7. IMHO&YMMV.
Printer support is pretty good, but research purchases first.
Yes
With Windows 10 MS went to a semi-annual major release upgrade cycle, which is just like what Ubuntu has been doing for ages. (And, just like Ubuntu, there's a Long Term Release version that tracks an older release, but keeps current with security. Win 10 Enterprise LTR currently is 1809, I think.) The nifty thing about this is, you can get pretty close to current in one fell swoop by using the current installer. You don't have to nurse, like, 5 years of updates, servicing stack upgrades, etc.
Will those run older XP programs?
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Will those run older XP programs?
Maybe. It's been a while since I ran Wine.
Having set up a few for non-computer people, Most have preferred the look of Cinnamon, but found Mate easier to use because everything is labelled.
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Maybe. It's been a while since I ran Wine.
Having set up a few for non-computer people, Most have preferred the look of Cinnamon, but found Mate easier to use because everything is labelled.
Which one looks the most like Windows XP (or at least like Windows 7)?
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Which one looks the most like Windows XP (or at least like Windows 7)?
They are both very similar.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=linux+mint+screenshot&t=brave&iax=images&ia=images
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What about peripherals? Printers, monitors, "office documents" (Word & Excel), media players, etc.? Where do we find those drivers and programs, esp. for older hardware?
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What about peripherals? Printers, monitors, "office documents" (Word & Excel), media players, etc.? Where do we find those drivers and programs, esp. for older hardware?
Documents are documents. Libre Office, Apache Open Office, Softmaker Office, and probably a number of ther office suites for Linux will read and write Microsoft office files.
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Printers, HP, Canon, and Brother have good support, Epson not so much. Monitors have never been an issue. Get a copy of Libre office for Windows, it's pretty much the same as fro Linux. No clue on media players, I use my MP3s on my Android phone.
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What about peripherals? Printers, monitors, "office documents" (Word & Excel), media players, etc.? Where do we find those drivers and programs, esp. for older hardware?
Mostly no problem. But, do research your printers before buying it.
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Official announcement on W10 II/WinX(W11?) suppose to be tomorrow. It's still in beta but if the "leaked" version is any guide it will be mostly interface changes. Slightly worrisome for users of older computers is a rumored UEFI and DRM 2.0 requirement which will lock out many computers ~10 years or older. But these requirements may be modified or even not make it to the final ver
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Not going to worry about it until the real thing ships. Stuff always changes, from beta to release version. I pretty much always ignore the MS betas. MS always changes plans (I remember hearing how MS had plans to embed DOS 5 in everything. Doesn't look like that happened.)
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Not going to worry about it until the real thing ships. Stuff always changes, from beta to release version. I pretty much always ignore the MS betas. MS always changes plans (I remember hearing how MS had plans to embed DOS 5 in everything. Doesn't look like that happened.)
Remember WinFS?
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Looked over MS' Win11 page (here https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11?ocid=eml_sv_cons_wip_awr_announce (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11?ocid=eml_sv_cons_wip_awr_announce))
I'm sure there'll be gotchas, but a big "Meh".
"Windows 8 Strikes Back", the sequel to "Windows, A New Hope"
Launcher thingee in the middle. Meh.
Wonder if you can set up local accounts out of the box in Home. Or at all.
"Where's muh Control Panel!"
Minimum 4GB RAM, which means it will suck!! be close to unusable on 4GB RAM.
Watch what they do with the licensing. I'm going to bet they close off the free upgrade from Win7 thing. If you computer still has 7, it's high time to get a new computer.
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Videos out showing people changing the interface "back"? to W10 style. Hopefully MS won't disable that.
IMHO 4gb is the minimum useful ram with 10. Yes you can run it with 2 or even 1 in some cases but it's like dragging a rusty anchor behind you IMHO.
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Wonder if you can set up local accounts out of the box in Home. Or at all.
On the machine I got in DEC, while not straightforward, it didn't take too much fussing to bypass MS and create only a local account on that machine. I still do not have a Microsoft account, nor do I want one.
Hopefully there will still be a local account workaround. Otherwise, in all likelihood, I'll just be using 10 until end of life.
So 11 will not be cloud only? You can install a physical version on a machine and it will be fully functional even without an interwebz connection?
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Looks like they are killing the 32-bit version. (I like 32-bit for machines with 4GB of RAM)
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"Where's muh Control Panel!"
That's not funny! :'(
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Looks like they are killing the 32-bit version. (I like 32-bit for machines with 4GB of RAM)
I have an older Dell desktop that I finally "upgraded" to Windows 10. I keep it as a backup computer, in case my newer, primary machine goes down. I installed Windows 10 as a 64-bit system, and I really wish I had chosen 32-bit. The computer has 4 GB of RAM and it's ... really ... slooooowwww. I'll double the RAM, but I don't know how much difference it will make.
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I have an older Dell desktop that I finally "upgraded" to Windows 10. I keep it as a backup computer, in case my newer, primary machine goes down. I installed Windows 10 as a 64-bit system, and I really wish I had chosen 32-bit. The computer has 4 GB of RAM and it's ... really ... slooooowwww. I'll double the RAM, but I don't know how much difference it will make.
Install an SSD, can make a HUGE difference
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Hell, I don't even know what I'm running right now, except that it is Mint, and has been for a few years now. I have a Windows 10 machine in the living room, which I have been considering turning into a media machine, and it is faster than what is essentially my office terminal (the Mint box), but I haven't fired it up in a few months. 42" living room screen, but... Mostly I'm either in the reading chair or the office.
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I have an older Dell desktop that I finally "upgraded" to Windows 10. I keep it as a backup computer, in case my newer, primary machine goes down. I installed Windows 10 as a 64-bit system, and I really wish I had chosen 32-bit. The computer has 4 GB of RAM and it's ... really ... slooooowwww. I'll double the RAM, but I don't know how much difference it will make.
So install the 32-bit version while it's still available.
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I have an older Dell desktop that I finally "upgraded" to Windows 10. I keep it as a backup computer, in case my newer, primary machine goes down. I installed Windows 10 as a 64-bit system, and I really wish I had chosen 32-bit. The computer has 4 GB of RAM and it's ... really ... slooooowwww. I'll double the RAM, but I don't know how much difference it will make.
That will help. 4GB just isn't enough to run Win 10 well now, even with old HD replaced by SSD.
And, you might not probably won't see the full 4GB with a 32 bit system. The system will probably see 3.5 GB, possibly less. A quirk of how 32 bit Windows works.
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That will help. 4GB just isn't enough to run Win 10 well now, even with old HD replaced by SSD.
And, you might not probably won't see the full 4GB with a 32 bit system. The system will probably see 3.5 GB, possibly less. A quirk of how 32 bit Windows works.
Yes, I think it's 3.5GB available, but it runs pretty well that way. I never could get the upper page to work in 32-bit Windows with 8GB installed (there's a name for that but I can't remember it) Each process can only access up to 4GB but it should be able to use the upper memory for another process or for a swap file or something; 32-bit Linux can do that.
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That will help. 4GB just isn't enough to run Win 10 well now, even with old HD replaced by SSD.
And, you might not probably won't see the full 4GB with a 32 bit system. The system will probably see 3.5 GB, possibly less. A quirk of how 32 bit Windows works.
Some older PCs will have a setting in BIOS to hide any RAM >2gb or even 4gb from windows since having >2gb of ram could often cause stability issues with XP. It was somewhat but not entirely fixed in the 64bit ver of XP.
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Install an SSD, can make a HUGE difference
Boy, it sure made a difference on my HP that I'm running Windows 7 on. Boot-up time is about 4 times faster than with the original HDD. I can be up and running on the internet in less than a minute. I have a two part program - Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language (1775 version) - that are around 2 gigs each part, run on Adobe reader 9, and they load in about 5 seconds. SSD is the way to go.
I was able to completely clone the HDD to the SSD (Samsung 870 EVO, 1 TB) using Macrium Reflectand now I have a way to keep a copy of Windows 7 isolated on the old HDD in case I ever need to reload Windows 7. The HDD is disconnected and conveniently 'stored' in its bay in the tower.
Woody
PS: I also have Windows XP loaded onto a VM (Oracle Virtual Box) on my computer and it cloned over to the SSD slicker than greased lightning along with all else on the old HDD.
Woody
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Install an SSD, can make a HUGE difference
Just bought a Western-Digital Blue for it. I'll install that along with the new RAM. I also have a separate graphics card that I'll stuff in it to relieve the motherboard of also playing GPU. Not a high-end graphics card, by any means, but more than adequate for a backup machine. The only game it will ever see is the XP version of Solitaire.
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Official announcement on W10 II/WinX(W11?) suppose to be tomorrow. It's still in beta but if the "leaked" version is any guide it will be mostly interface changes. Slightly worrisome for users of older computers is a rumored UEFI and DRM 2.0 requirement which will lock out many computers ~10 years or older. But these requirements may be modified or even not make it to the final ver
Had DRM on my mind. DRM should TPM 2.0
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Turns out my main desktop which is only a 5 year old build is TPM 1.0 so according to current 11 requirements, TPM 2.0, it can't run 11.
Oh well, they may change that requirement and if they don't I got 4 years to worry about it. Been eye balling a new CPU and motherboard anyway.
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The old Dell I mentioned is a Core 2 Duo CPU. I assume that's a dual-core CPU? Will that work with Windows 11?
My newer desktop is a Core i3, so I guess that makes the cut. My older tablet is, I think, an Atom, and it's 32-bit so that one won't handle Windows 11. Specs for the Microsoft use in the Surface 3 (not Pro) say it's a quad-core Atom x7 CPU, so I guess that's going to be okay?
And I think my notebooks are okay. They're both Core i3 CPUs, albeit slower than the desktop.
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Windows 11 Supported Intel Processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
Windows 11 Supported AMD Processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors
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Wonderful.
NONE of my computers (CPUs) make the list.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/c1fdkd2Y/FB-IMG-1624756674949.jpg)
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Wonderful.
NONE of my computers (CPUs) make the list.
It's still in beta and if the past is any guide a lot will more than likely change between now and launch. Even if nothing does you still have years before you have to worry about it.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/c1fdkd2Y/FB-IMG-1624756674949.jpg)
Since I use my desktop for program launch icons rather than for documents, I can't tell you how often I long for being able to group certain programs in their own little boxes.
BRING BACK WFW 3.11!
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You don't just create folders for those icons on your desktop?
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You can create folders in the start menu popup by just dropping one icon on top of another and it creates a folder you can name. I group my office programs, games, etc.. that way.
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You can create folders in the start menu popup by just dropping one icon on top of another and it creates a folder you can name. I group my office programs, games, etc.. that way.
I didn't know that was possible.
What is this "Start menu popup" of which you speak? I have a desktop. It's full of individual program icons.
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I didn't know that was possible.
What is this "Start menu popup" of which you speak? I have a desktop. It's full of individual program icons.
Left-click the little Windows icon in the corner of the taskbar. There's probably other ways to get there; the Windows key plus 'X' gets you to the right-click start menu, and I don't know all the keyboard shortcuts.
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I didn't know that was possible.
What is this "Start menu popup" of which you speak? I have a desktop. It's full of individual program icons.
If you want to have your icons on your desktop organized, you can right click a clear spot on your desktop and select "New Folder."
Name it what you wish and drag and drop the appropriate program icons there.
As for the Start Menu, yeah, it's in the lower left corner.
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I know where the start button is. Clicking my start button doesn't pop up any folders, it brings up a listing of programs and apps.
[Edit] Just tried your desktop folder trick. It works -- sort of -- but I don't like it, and it's not at all the same as having program groups like in WFW 3.11. Yes, I could create a new folder, and I was able to drag some icons into it. Bu then when I clicked on the new folder, it didn't open a program group window -- it opened File Manager. The program icons were in there -- after I modified the settings to show other than "Details," which is my preferred and default setting for all folders. But "large" icons are too small, and 'Extra large" icons are just small icons in a larger square, white box.
In fact, I mis-stated when I said I didn't know about this trick. Once I did it, I remembered that I tried it several years ago. I didn't like it any better then than I do now. The new, sample folder has been deleted and my desktop has been restored to the way it was.
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Maybe computers and you just don't belong in the same room.
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Turns out my main desktop which is only a 5 year old build is TPM 1.0 so according to current 11 requirements, TPM 2.0, it can't run 11.
Oh well, they may change that requirement and if they don't I got 4 years to worry about it. Been eye balling a new CPU and motherboard anyway.
Well duh! TPM was turned off in the desktop's UEFI and it now says 2.0. The 1.0 bit above came from the MB's docs which appears to contain a typo. But since I have a 6th gen i5 I'm still screwed.
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Coworker's messing with it now.
right click start button, still pulls up a tech menu. Control panel is still there. "Terminal" app is powershell.
He's liking it so far.
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Coworker's messing with it now.
right click start button, still pulls up a tech menu. Control panel is still there. "Terminal" app is powershell.
He's liking it so far.
I've installed it on a spare workstation. The interface is a little different, but overall I like it.