Author Topic: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins  (Read 10857 times)

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 01:00:56 PM »
I'd still trade 100 dogs to give my grandfather back his chidhood.

You think your great grandathers life is worth 100 dogs. A guy who killed his wife and his dog.

I bet your grandfather was better off without the man. Now, a hundred dogs for your greatgrandmother, I can get on board with that.
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Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 01:23:05 PM »
I'm not saying dogs deserve bad things. In fact, I think they are probable capable of most of the emotions we experience.

On the other hand, I really don't like people who claim men are 'something special', and because we are unique and beautiful snowflakes, Lord's favorite snowflakes as some claim, we can fu(k this planet up.

Elephants, crows, vultures, squid, chimpanzees.. all of them use tools. Elephants probably have their own language. I mean, 300 distinct signals that may or may not be arranged in sentences seems enough for a language. And they're way smarter than dogs. Cats are particularily dim. They're superb predators, but not social, so they lack a big part of intelligence we have.

The only thing that separates us from those animals is that we are much better at technology, and smarter, on average.  There seems to be no qualitative difference. Well.. maybe writing, but really.

What needs to be recognized is, that we are part of nature, and we shouldn't put our own interests- large parking lots, cheap beef, ahead of ecosystems. (not that I dislike meat, but in the US, you are downright peculiar about your beeft...- did you know that one professor was not hired for some agricultural university post because he wrote.. I kid you not.. that "cows eat grass*" ?)

*the all-powerful corn and e-coli lobby doesn' like that kind of statements. E-coli is so prevalent in meat because cows fed corn have stomach enviroments e-coli likes more..afaik.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 01:28:51 PM »
What needs to be recognized is, that we are part of nature, and we shouldn't put our own interests- large parking lots, cheap beef, ahead of ecosystems.

Self-defeating argument is self-defeating.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 01:33:11 PM »
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Self-defeating argument is self-defeating.

So, you're saying agriculture is not messing up natural ecosystems? What about fertilizer runoff in the Mississippi, and the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico that creates? Entirely a-ok?

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 01:36:01 PM »
Well, lanis, we are just dumb animals, after all.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2011, 01:37:18 PM »
 =D

I just don't see how you can push the idea that we are part of nature, and just another type of animal "meat," but at the same time argue that we should start caring about natural ecosystems. Do you think we should be animals, or be humane?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2011, 03:57:24 PM »
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Cats are particularily dim. They're superb predators, but not social, so they lack a big part of intelligence we have.

Actually, cats have language.  We are just either too dull in wit or hearing to understand it, while they understand ours fairly well.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2011, 04:01:53 PM »
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I just don't see how you can push the idea that we are part of nature, and just another type of animal "meat," but at the same time argue that we should start caring about natural ecosystems. Do you think we should be animals, or be humane?
We are animals, in that that is our nature, but at the same time, we're something more, because we have far greater abilities due to technology. So maybe, instead of multiplying like there's no tomorrow, we should start behaving in a more restrained way..  so there is a tomorrow.. that doesn't involve mass die-offs and survival only for the hardiest organisms.. rats, humans, cockroaches etc...

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2011, 04:07:48 PM »
We are animals, in that that is our nature, but at the same time, we're something more, because we have far greater abilities due to technology. So maybe, instead of multiplying like there's no tomorrow, we should start behaving in a more restrained way..  so there is a tomorrow.. that doesn't involve mass die-offs and survival only for the hardiest organisms.. rats, humans, cockroaches etc...

If technology is the only thing separating us from the animals, where does this desire come from to preserve other species?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2011, 04:13:34 PM »
Oh! Oh! Oh! There is a relevent Heinlein quote for this! Now, where is it?

*off to search*
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Tallpine

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2011, 05:56:56 PM »
Oh! Oh! Oh! There is a relevent Heinlein quote for this! Now, where is it?

*off to search*

Something about specialization and insects  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 06:17:44 PM »
Crap! I think its in A Stranger in a Strange Land, which I don't own.  =(
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

seeker_two

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2011, 09:50:50 PM »
Crap! I think its in A Stranger in a Strange Land, which I don't own.  =(

Quote
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love

http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/Heinlein.html


....and, by the way, I am NOT an animal.....God made humans separate from the animals.....and He made us stewards of the Earth....meaning we're supposed to take care of it and use it to our advantage.....

Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2011, 10:07:46 AM »
No, its about how humans will do whats in our nature, and if we end up dyimg out, well, then we die out...

Maybe its in The Cat That Walks Through Walls. I think long may have been involved...
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2011, 11:10:06 AM »
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God made humans separate from the animals

If we were separate from animals, why are we so similar to them? Why do we have the same DNA, the same short lifespan, the same everything? Why can we catch viruses from animals, if we are separate?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2011, 03:10:15 PM »
If we were separate from animals, why are we so similar to them? Why do we have the same DNA, the same short lifespan, the same everything? Why can we catch viruses from animals, if we are separate?

Why do we live on the same planet? Why do we breathe the same oxygen?

You can draw similarities between just about anything, if you like.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2011, 03:16:54 PM »
Why should I feed pearls to trolls?

Tuco

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2011, 03:18:57 PM »
Why should I feed pearls to trolls?

nevermind.  too easy to misinterperet.

I still value human life over animals.  
It's a personal thing I wouldn't expect everyone to agree or even to understand.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 03:25:11 PM by Tuco »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2011, 03:22:16 PM »
Why should I feed pearls to trolls?

Wait. Who's a troll?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tuco

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2011, 03:26:16 PM »
My friend Blondie may be many things, but he is no Troll.

(searches for old avatar....)
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henschman

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2011, 03:53:07 PM »
The difference between man and other animals is that man has a much greater capacity for reason than other animals.  I believe that the notion of "rights" is a moral concept, the purpose of which should be to protect beings which are capable of recognizing it.  Only man is capable of recognizing the concept of rights, so man is the only being who should be protected by rights.  

 
“Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.”
-- Thomas Jefferson

Lanius

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2011, 06:25:45 PM »
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Only man is capable of recognizing the concept of rights, so man is the only being who should be protected by rights. 
So, if something's not smart enough to recognize a right, it's a-ok for a sadist to torture it to death, since it's a wild creature that lacks the capacity to understand rights and therefore shouldn't be protected by any.

Interesting position..

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2011, 06:47:28 PM »
Rights are not necessarily the only concept that might limit someone's behavior.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

cambeul41

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 06:49:22 PM »
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Only man is capable of recognizing the concept of rights, so man is the only being who should be protected by rights.

That is a claim but not necessarily a fact.

How many animals do not believe they have a right to self-defense? And if you do not believe that they so believe, what is the source of your belief?
?It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.?
?Thomas Sowell

TommyGunn

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Re: Russian Roulette - Dog Wins
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2011, 07:44:28 PM »
If we were separate from animals, why are we so similar to them? Why do we have the same DNA, the same short lifespan, the same everything? Why can we catch viruses from animals, if we are separate?

We don't actually, have the same DNA.  Different animals have different DNA seguences, a different ## of pairings, and so forth.  Stick a piece of human flesh in another animal -- say a tiger -- and it will be recognized as foreign, and rejected.


 
So, if something's not smart enough to recognize a right, it's a-ok for a sadist to torture it to death, since it's a wild creature that lacks the capacity to understand rights and therefore shouldn't be protected by any.

Interesting position..
That is a silly argument.  Just because an animal may not "recognize" a right, that hardly means it's justifiable to hurt it.  Note you yourself use the term "sadist," implying a certain disdain for the actions involved in hurting the animal.
We may argue, loosely (I'd guess) that an animal may have a "right" to self defense, but I doubt any animal perceives of itself "having rights."  Animals experience pain, and fear, and will respond to what they perceive is causing the pain, or inflicting the fear.  It's called survival.  I would say that's pretty instinctive.
Now a human may believe the animal has a "right" to defend itself.  I probably would  not go to the parapets with a broken bourbon bottle to attack the proposition, but only humans have a concept of "rights."
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero