Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: zahc on October 23, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
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Is spanking children to discipline them ever appropriate?
This discussion was prompted by this article:
http://www.psychalive.org/how-to-break-cycle-of-child-abuse/
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Not this again. :facepalm:
The answer is: yes, of course.
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Yes.
"Spare the rod and spoil the child."
At this point, I shouldn’t have to list off all the reasons spanking your child doesn’t work. It’s science, it’s proven, and we may as well be revisiting a discussion of whether the world is flat. If the damage it does to children’s spirits (not to mention their actual brains) isn’t enough to convince you, maybe it should be the fact that corporal punishment makes them more likely to be violent and no more likely to behave.
These are the words of a mush-brained idiot. In my generation, we were spanked if we screwed up. It didn't make us violent, and it DID make us behave. There's a huge difference between spanking, and beating the crap out of. Spanking is not abuse. Spanking teaches kids that actions have consequences, which is a valuable lesson as preparation for the real world.
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I really don't get why spanking is equated with a parent being out of control angry.
I was spanked, rarely, and, too be honest, the few memories I even have of the incidents is a hazy "meh" at best.
The thing is I don't recall a spanking being accompanied by my mother flying off the handle (and trust me, I know what makes my mother got bonkers mad) and spankings were more humiliating in that I had earned them rather than painful or traumatic. There was a very consistent series of levels to my punishments, with spanking being at the very top, and they were applied based squarely on the severity of my misdeeds. Spankings were pretty much reserved for stuff where if I hadn't been lucky I would've ended up in the hospital or morgue and my mother made sure I knew that.
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Mom.
Big wooden spoon.
Twice.
All it took.
After that, "Terrrrr-ANCE!" was enough.
Still shrinks my sphincter a little if someone uses my full name.
Terry
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From the Child Protective Services expert in the Hive -
Yes.
The issue is what is the object of the spanking - to punish or to inflict injury. Generally speaking (and with deference to Terry's mother) spankings should not be administered with any sort of instrument besides the hand. To the rear end - each side equally. And IMH[professional]O never in anger.
stay safe.
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I think spanking is the reason this group is so dysfunctional. Plus I have heard rumors that many of you continue to seek out this activity in the dark of night in lonely places. [popcorn] :P
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From the Child Protective Services expert in the Hive -
Yes.
The issue is what is the object of the spanking - to punish or to inflict injury. Generally speaking (and with deference to Terry's mother) spankings should not be administered with any sort of instrument besides the hand. To the rear end - each side equally. And IMH[professional]O never in anger.
stay safe.
I have heard the opposite theory...that the proper implement should always be used to prevent accidental over application.
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When I was older, I got the belt. Maddest I have ever seen my dad (directed at me anyway), I was around 10 or 11, a big, and I don't mean fat, boy and had done something I shouldn't have (surprise!). Dad applied the belt and I laughed. I thought he was gonna deck me! He had his fists balled up and was shaking mad. He sent me to my room while he cooled off. We had a talk later and new more creative punishments were instituted from there on.
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I think it also depends on the child.
A child that is really sensitive or not very confident is going to react to corprial punishment a lot different than a confident hellion child (I was hellion).
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I was spanked with a hand and a couple of times with a belt, and look how well-adjusted I turned out to be.
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I have heard the opposite theory...that the proper implement should always be used to prevent accidental over application.
???
I don't think I understand that theory. What kind of proper implement would prevent over application better than the palm of an open hand? The parent wouldn't feel the swat nearly the same way using something else.
My parents switched (heh heh) from wooden spoons and belts to open hands for just that reason.
I completely agree with waiting until you are calm before punishing, although a quick application seems to be more easily associated with the behavior.
Some kids do respond to other punishment and so long as it is effective at curbing inappropriate behavior then wonderful. Other kids respond better (or only) to reasonable and properly applied physical punishment. And don't end up with long term psychological damage.
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When I was older, I got the belt. Maddest I have ever seen my dad (directed at me anyway), I was around 10 or 11, a big, and I don't mean fat, boy and had done something I shouldn't have (surprise!). Dad applied the belt and I laughed. I thought he was gonna deck me! He had his fists balled up and was shaking mad. He sent me to my room while he cooled off. We had a talk later and new more creative punishments were instituted from there on.
I think spankings stop working after a certain point. Mine stopped around 6. By then, mom could verbally chastise me into submission when I was being an idiot (at least until I hit teenage years, and then I was too old and too big for her to spank)
I've witnessed a couple spankings and they seem to be the only way to convince a child that isn't ready, verbally, to understand the severity of their misdeeds (like running away from their mother in a crowded parking lot) Older kids are more ready to understand punishments that aren't immediately in the moment (time outs, grounding, having valued objects repossessed by parental units) that a younger child isn't really going to get.
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My father thought that he had to "spank" us. Each time, he had an ulcer flare-up. He usually used a belt, but once at the direction of his father used a buggy whip. Actually I don't remember which one wielded the whip — but that time my cousin and I richly deserved it. I think my father over did the corporal punishment. It made me more angry than sorry. When I became independent and, therefore, responsible for myself, he became a friend.
When I was raising my own children, I never felt the need to physically punish them, but I did not rule out doing so. I did, on occasion, use a swat on the butt (and once a cheek slap) to get their attention. Talkings-to (after I had their attention) sufficed. Lectures would often end with "Do you understand me?" and the reply was usually in the affirmative, but occasionally, "I get points 1, 2, 3, and 5, but I'm missing something on point 4." When the talking was over, it was over. They never made me sorry.
My middle child, a daughter, once commented that she never felt that she was treated like a child. She had always felt that she was treated as a person. I think my older son and younger daughter might agree.
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My wife at the time and I did not find it necessary to use corporal punishment on our children.
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I was curious to find out what my mother's actual two cent were on the subject, so, straight from the horse's mouth:
As a mother, I'm not sure I could answer your question without prefacing my answer with the fact that if I were in the same situation now that I was in then, my responses might not be the same and could be radically different.
My general belief has always been that nonviolent, nonphysical discipline is probably the best course of action if at all possible.
There's also a difference between a single swat on the butt, to get attention, and the good old-fashioned over the knee paddling that is used solely as punishment, but probably isn't very efficacious in correcting overall behavior.
But then, even grabbing a child by the arm to stop them could be considered violent in the right situation. As a parent, you have to walk a fine line between how much force you need to get a message through an going too far.
Also, occasionally you're in a situation where you have to so some quick to avert a greater danger. Possibly, what you remember from Batesville may have been something to do with you having run into the road. Raising a pre-schooler on that road was no picnic. Do you remember the 90 MPH police chase where they took down the fence by Page's Store? That sort of thing can freak out a parent of a munchkin more than almost anything else I can think of.
So you probably got swatted a little harder if it was about something involving that road.
So my answer in a nutshell would be to avoid any kind of physical contact that is not absolutely necessary, as long as nobody would be endangered otherwise.
In my professional career, I was never technically considered a "Mandated Reporter," in situations where there was reason to suspect abuse, neglect or exploitation of a child. I did have that legal obligation in the case of adults over the age of 60 or mentally incapacitated adults. However, because of my credentials, I never had any excuse for allowing these things to go unreported and I certainly realized a moral obligation to contact CPS where the situation warranted.
Even then, I rarely contacted APS (or CPS) without the knowledge of the client and/or their family. My job was to protect the best interests of clients and their families, not to get anyone in trouble. Occasionally there was some reason why I had to make these contacts without client/family knowledge, but this decision had to be made based on a lot of different factors.
Normally, I wouldn't consider a single incident of an ill or mobility impaired adult swatting or momentarily reprimanding an unruly child as "reason to suspect" anything unless it was part of a larger pattern."
When I made a laughing comment about how I was right about the circumstances being hospital or morgue, I go this:
I can't guarantee this was 100% of the case, although at the time it appeared to be one way of keeping the immediate situation from escalating out of control and causing worse problems. But then again, I can't say I would do things now as I did then and I also can't say exactly what I would do now if I was in that situation.
All this is posted with her permission.
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I think spanking is the reason this group is so dysfunctional. Plus I have heard rumors that many of you continue to seek out this activity in the dark of night in lonely places. [popcorn] :P
As a group we certainly put the "FUN" in dysfunctional.
To my knowledge, based solely on reading books and case studies, is that such activities by adults takes place in well-lit, well-appointed locales. What you describe sounds more like a mugging.
stay safe.
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I have heard the opposite theory...that the proper implement should always be used to prevent accidental over application.
Oh, sure. The wire coat hanger or the electric extension cord or the belt or the switch or the .... will let you know when over application has occurred - when it draws blood and cuts down into the muscle.
While not always true, the old saying "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" has a lot of wisdom behind it. Your hand is going to start stinging about the same time the target of your hand starts stinging - and that's a sign that you are through.
Certain categories of misbehavior deserve IMH[P]O* immediate correction by touch - one touch only. [/Capt. Ramius voice] Then the decision to spank or not can be made and carried out on the spot. Yes, like dealing with a puppy, waiting till hours later to deal with the incident is not going to be effective.
The former daughter got single swats on the butt a small number of times, mostly because she responded well to looks of disappointment or saying I was disappointed. There was one incident where I wanted to thrash her to within an inch of her life, and recognized both how angry I was and why I was so angry. Instead of beating her on the spot she was sent to her room, where she waited until I had cooled off and was somewhere closer to rational. I then "discussed" the matter with her by telling her that she scared the daylights out of me thinking what might have happened. (She was old enough to have an idea more than "Daddy helps people" of what I dealt with, and figured out that if I was scared stuff like that might happen to her it was "really bad."
Other kids need more forceful discipline at times. Discipline is not proving that you are bigger and stronger and can assault them at will. Again IMH[P]O it should be an indicator that a clearly marked line was crossed and a penalty needs to be imposed. Often grounding, or taking away electronics, or "time out" (the most useless activity I know of) does not convey the severity of the offense. That's when spanking may come into play.
stay safe.
* - professional opinion
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I'm of the opinion that if used because you're angry, you're doing it wrong. If you're teaching a lesson and not actually injuring them, that's a bit different. Some kids, beatings would be counterproductive. Others, well, sometimes it's the only way to get through to them. It's probably selection bias, but of my childhood, most of my friends that I knew did receive corporal punishment, it seemed more for the emotional "benefit" of the parent than teaching the kid anything. The point seemed to be to instill fear or compliance by physical threat. I'm suspecting that one basically never hears or sees of the judgment like Skidmark was talking about, because it doesn't exactly catch your attention if you're not directly involved.
I wasn't on the receiving end of it much as I can recall. Then again, I grew fairly quickly. By the time I was 12 or 13, I might not have been able to win a fight against an adult male, but I'd sure as hell go down swinging.
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Speaking which: more factoids you can't use.
http://www.omgfacts.com/news/23153/You-Wouldn-t-Have-Guessed-These-14-Things-Are-Still-Legal-In-The-US?li_source=LI&li_medium=omg-right-rail
# 6
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Mom used to use wooden spoons if we were in the vicinity. From my vague memory some where around 12yo I cut the ends off all of them one day after she hit me.
Thats what happens when you encourage kids to use tools.
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My old man used to spank me until he was over being angry for whatever infraction I had committed. It took him a while to get over it.
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Every time I see some of the little monsters in our old 4H club, I mentally thank my parents for having the resolve to actually discipline me when needed. Didn't get spanked all that much, but it was definitely effective.
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I am of the opinion that it can be effective and appropriate for some children. That being said, I never bought into the notion that any possible increase in behavior problems of children is the result of people not using corporal punishment enough.
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when I felt it was appropriate, I spanked both of my kids when they were young. Never had to do that very often. They knew that certain behavior was just not going to be tolerated, and it set limits on behavior that they knew existed, and would be enforced. I did 14 years of single dad child raising.
Son is now 45, Daughter is 40. Both turned out well adjusted, with productive lives of their own.
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I definitely pushed the boundaries when I was a youngster, and was on the receiving end of a number of paddlings. My father eventually tired whacking me on the butt and did something pretty smart. (He has always been a sharp guy. I still ask him for advice at my ripe old age of 59.) He was remodeling our old house in Portland at the time and had some wooden laths laying around from a wall he had opened. He placed one of those laths on the top of the closet door jamb in my room and advised me to look at it whenever I was contemplating stepping out of line. That tactic worked pretty well. I don't recall too many spankings from him after that.
The last one I remember receiving was from my high school vice principle, Col. White. He was USMCR at the time. I knew I had it coming and owned up to the infraction, and did not hold it against him at all. We actually joked about it at the time.
He was legendary in school for his use of the paddle that he hung on his office wall, to the point of it being a badge honor among the boys to have been paddled by him. Darn if he couldn't swing that paddle with authority.
Despite all the paddlings I received as a kid, I grew up to be a reasonably well adjusted adult. (Most of my psychopathic tendencies are under control.)
My two oldest boys each received one bare handed spanking from me as they grew up. I forget what the infraction was, but it was fairly serious and deserved corporal punishment. It was delivered along with a serious discussion of the whys and wherefores, and in a way meant to impress them that I did not want to have to ever spank them again. It worked. They were much better behaved boys than their father, for sure.